New Wheels for Clem; need advice

[JAS]

After reading Leah's comments about upgrading her Clem with lighter wheels and other parts,  I'd like to do the same for my dark green Clem.  I use it for rural road riding when I'm not on my Platy, gravel trails, and hauling groceries.  It's got a rear rack and will have SKS fenders when I get around to installing them. I will also replace the original Bosco with the aluminum version.  

I changed the tires from those horrible original Kendas to Big Bens and removed the front rack and basket which did wonders for handling.  Since I got it from Craigslist a few years ago I don't know much about the original wheels.  They have multi-colored spoke nipples and no identifying labels. The original owner bought it from a bike shop in Madison, WI.

Any advice is welcome on what wheels to get or other upgrades I could make.  I don't want to go tubeless. Clem is 52cm with 650b wheels.   Thanks!

[Collin A]

As a former Clem owner, I understand the benefit of getting a lighter set of wheels on there. I personally ended up with cliffhangers and some bitex/SON hubs on mine, but I intended the bike to be more MTB with 2.2" tires on there for rougher stuff and fully loaded rides. This wheelset now lives on my Joe Appaloosa and is probably a bit overkill, but serves its purpose when I take it on accidental DH MTB trails in Salt Lake City.

From your description, it sounds like those are the original wheels that came with the complete clems a few years ago. They would be the Alex DM24 rims that weigh probably close to 750g each. 

As for recs, based on your riding description, maybe a lighter setup with Velocity Quill or Pacenti Brevets might work (~400g-ish for each)? I actually ended up re-lacing the original clem wheels with the pacenti brevet (didn't need new spokes, though they were maybe 1mm short, so I ended up getting new spokes later but also because she wanted the rainbow nipples still and its best not to reuse the alu ones...) and put them on my partner's AHH. Much lighter and spin up easier too and works great for 40mm+ tires. Further weight reductions could be had in hubs (the deores are great though), but they don't impact rolling weight nearly as much.

Good luck!

Collin in Firemento

[Paul Choi]

So if you compare the Alex 650b DM24 (695g) rim to an Atlas (590g), you would save 3.7 ounces per wheel. Would that really make any difference to the riding someone does on a Clem?

Maybe for the WW that would be a big improvement?

[Garth]

Oh, sounds like a case of compar-itis ..... seeing what someone else says, has or does..... then question yourself and wonder why you don't measure up to the unrealistic image it it portrays. Each and every ride and rider is perfect as-is.  Don't believe me ? Can anyone change the present for being present that it is ?  Can one "go back" or forward and change the present from being present while being present, the very same Presence?    Can one break it, repair it, upgrade it, lose it, gain it or in any way alter it ? Can one escape themselves ?  Of course not.  So THIS-HERE must be absolutely wondrous ..... utterly perfect.There's no proving  IT ..... rather IT is proving You !  Enjoy the ride .... always !  A-LIVE-NESS is the Ride .... and it's YOU !!!

[Ed Carolipio]

I agree with Collin those are probably DM24s. Also following up on Collin's recs, I'm running 650b Pacenti Brevets on my AHH as a "lightweight" urban set up with a rear rack and as a heavy (220lbs) rider - so far, so good. Note that it's a 19mm inner rim width so right at the border for a 2.0" tire. (I'm running a 1.75" tire.) Velocity Quills are stated to be 440g with 21mm inner width: pricier but only a bit heavier and allows the option of going up to 2.3" (no fenders) comfortably.

 If you're looking to reduce rotational weight and have a "faster" road ride, replacing the Big Bens might be a good place to invest initially. The Schwalbe G-One Speed Evolution 27.5x2.0 has a published weight of 500g vs 735g for the Big Bens (about half a pound difference around the outermost portion of the wheel), and, for me, subjectively less rolling resistance and a more supple ride, at the expense of slightly less flat protection.

--Ed C.

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:46 AM UTC-7 JAS wrote:

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Garth’s is a nice thought, and instructive in the right circumstances, but having been in Joyce’s shoes, I don’t think it applies here. (No offense to Garth, who is very kind.) I know of 4 women (including myself in the group) who started with Clems and added Platys. 3 of the 4 of us have lamented the heaviness of the Clems (Emily Guise - I can’t remember if you ever said so about your Clem, but you DID say you felt the Platy was spritely in comparison when you last posted here about it - so I might even say all FOUR of us have felt the Clem is heavy/slow). I made some serious changes to my Clem and I find it markedly improved:

1. Lightweight wheels (Pacenti Brevets, I think?)

2. Gravel King slicks 

3. Aluminum Bosco bars

4. Removal of front rack and basket, leaving the rear Clem rack.

I didn’t get a before and after weight of my bike, but it FEELS lighter when I ride it, and I don’t think it’s a placebo effect. But I do think if a bicycle is designed for a 250 pound person to ride it, and someone half that weight is riding it, it’s gonna feel heavy to her. Some would blame the engine, but I don’t see that being fair here. If I lose weight (I’m a healthy weight and am fit, so I won’t be doing that) I don’t think the Clem becomes easier to pedal. Tiny little JL (who reads this board but doesn’t post) is diminutive; I’m not sure she’s 100lbs. Lightweight parts matter for her. Cut weight where you can; it adds up! Even if it’s a half a pound here and a half a pound there, I can tell. 

I was really frustrated with the clunkiness of my Clem, magnified after the Platy’s arrival. But I removed that front rack and basket and that made the bike so much better, and I’m glad I kept it. I love it all over again, and it has its place. It’s not a Platy, it’s a Clem, and both are gems.

Leah

PS Joyce, I put tubes back in my tires because I didn’t want to mess with sealant for the little time I was spending on the Clem compared to the Platy. But the system is compatible with either!

[Roberta]

Joyce, 

There were quite a few of us who did the lightening up thing.  I think you'll fine a thread of mine called something like lightening up Joe Appaloosa, written probably June 2020.  There was another thread by Kiley (I think that was her name) who wanted to lighten up her 60cm Cheviot years ago.  None of us expect to have 20lb Rivs, but there are things we can do to make the ride better and lighter.

Though not as stout as the Clem L, reducing the weight on Joe A.  gained me much more pleasurable for me to ride, pick up and transport (I had to hoist the bike over my head to store it, pick it up for car rack, carry it in and our of my breezeway for every ride, etc.  Weight is/was an issue.) .    besides the items you mentioned, I got a 1x drivetrain.  Not sure it was worth the money, but I like it.  Some other practical lightening up is go with a lighter rack.  Or no rack; just take a backpack (I have a rectangle cheapo backpack that I could have used).   Mine is an Axiom and it weights about 1 1/4  pounds less than a beautiful Nitto.  And, it's still nice looking.  SKS fenders vs metal or no fenders. I traded my Brooks Flyer for a Selle Anatomica, a big waxed Carradice bag for something smaller that would do the job just fine.  also, I emptied my bag of not-really-needed" items.  Clem nylon pedals, which don't dig into my shins.

Analog cycles put me on Pacenti rims, but they take into account rider weight, and GK Slicks, which are tubeless ready but can be used with tubes.

I did not weigh my bike, but much of my weight savings was free.  I sold my takeoffs.    I estimate bike lost about  5 pounds.   It was noticeable. 

Roberta

[Emily Guise]

Leah, I do find my Clem heavier than my Platy- although some of that is due to my choice of accessories, like a rear rack that's heavier than it could be. I've put the Clem on bike camping and grocery/stuff hauling duty and it seems to shine more there. I even climbed up an 11% grade with it fully loaded this summer. It was so hard and I hated every minute but I DID IT. Clems are wonderfully capable machines!

[Joe Bernard]

Another option is what I have on my custom, White Industries hubs to 650B Velocity Atlas rims. Rich @ Riv built them for me and I added some lightish Vittoria tires (confession: because I liked the way they looked). I don't know HOW much lighter than stock Clem wheels they are, but I had both here for a while and the fancy set was notably so. And the freehub makes a cool buzzing sound when I'm coasting! Here's pics. 

Joe Bernard

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:46 AM UTC-7 JAS wrote:

[Scott McLain]

Hi There,

I have ridden big bens and found them to be a bit sluggish.  I would recommend getting a different tire before trying new wheels.  I think the most zippy wider tires you can get are the Rene Herse tires.  However they don't have significant flat protection.  I have ordered a pair of panaracer gravel king slicks to evaluate flat protection, especially coming into goat head season.  Ha!

Best Regards,

Scott

[Bill Lindsay]

Garth made a wordy comment about being content and happy with your bike the way it is.  Leah spoke on behalf of several Clem-upgraders that making their Clem lighter made a difference they could feel.  The feeling that Leah described was "heavy and slow", and the upgrades made the target Clems less heavy and slow and that was perceived as a positive.  

I have a number of thoughts on this (as usual)

I don't understand Garth's writing style and vernacular, but I think he is recommending that people try to enjoy a bike for what it is, rather than fretting about what it isn't.  I personally follow that recommendation.  Since it's only a recommendation, of course everybody is free to be that way or not be that way.  The notion that the Clem is objectively 'heavy and slow' doesn't mean anything to me.  I have a huge stable of bikes (currently 18 that I am actively using).  The very lightest one is about 18 pounds, and the heaviest one is 32 pounds unloaded and when loaded can be over 70 pounds.  For each of them, I push the pedals as hard as I feel like pushing the pedals, in the gear I feel like riding.  Each machine goes as fast as it goes when I pedal that hard.  Every one of my bikes goes faster when I pedal harder, and goes slower when I pedal easier, and they are all DIALED.  I don't comprehend this "heavy and slow" as a problem.  My heaviest bike is my Atlantis.  It is objectively heavier than my Roadeo.  When I pedal with the same input power, I travel objectively at a lower velocity on the Atlantis than I travel on the Roadeo.  So, the Atlantis is "heavier" and it is "slower" than my Roadeo, but it is not "heavy and slow" in some objectively negative sense.  The Atlantis is perfect at being the machine that it is.  It's a perfect build, executed around a very good build concept.  I could come up with a different build concept, and call it an "ultralight Atlantis" and execute an Atlantis build that is 2 pounds lighter.  That bike would be awesome, too.  It would be a different machine from my current Atlantis.  It would be faster and lighter, but it would not be better.  It would only be different.  Put another way: people are asserting that 1 or 2 pounds makes a big difference in the enjoyability of a bike.  If that were universally true, then your light and fast bike would be ruined by carrying a picnic lunch.  For me that's not true.  There's a great beer shop on the hill to my house.  If I buy a six pack and put it in my basket, my 'bike' is 7 pounds heavier.  I'm not all of a sudden mad that my bike is heavy and slow, I'm happy that I'm taking a cold six-pack up the hill on my perfect bike!  :)  If 7 pounds of cargo doesn't ruin a bike, then dropping 2 pounds off a bike shouldn't convert a bike from "bad" to "good".  2 pounds lighter is an objective measurement.  Better or worse is subjective.  My Atlantis is "heavy" unloaded, and is "even heavier" with 10 pounds of cargo.  My heavy Atlantis is great in both states.  

Now don't get me wrong, when I'm planning a build, and executing that build, every single thing that I pull together I always want that bit to be as light in weight as is practical and appropriate.  Lighter is ALWAYS better, all else being totally equal.  For example, I would NEVER build a 36 spoke rear wheel for myself.  32 is plenty for everything I've ever done and ever will do on a bicycle.  36 spokes costs more (more spokes), is heavier, and would be equivalently reliable for me as 32 spokes (100% perfectly reliable).  I always use double butted spokes which are objectively lighter, objectively more reliable than straight gauge, and cost a tiny bit more.  I'm definitely more of a weight weenie than Grant.  I'm probably on-par with Jan.  I know that lighter is always better, but I also know that in terms of measurable speed, a couple pounds lighter is almost immeasurable.  How a cyclist feels about their lighter bike is real, but it's all in that cyclist.  It's subjective.  

Another piece that has less to do with objectively measurable weight is the act of making a bike your own.  Call that agency.  Every bike in my stable was meticulously curated by me.  I'm happy with the execution, and the weight is the weight.  I have agency over my builds and my builds are "mine".  If I were to buy an off-the-peg bike, I'm certain that step 1 would be to switch out the things I want to switch out, which may be for weight and may be for fit or function.  That act, personalizing a machine for yourself away from stock, is a form of agency that I think is 100% positive.  If you have a stock Clem and want to change it to make yourself happy and to mark your territory, absolutely do that!  Call it an "upgrade".  If it makes the bike weigh less on the scale, fine.  If it enables you feel like you enjoy riding it more, that's sensational.  Personalizing your bike could be as simple as putting stickers on it.  

These are my thoughts on the matter.  All are opinions.  I think everybody should do anything they want to do to their bike to help themself enjoy it more.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Paul Richardson]

my wife's homer hilsen has 32-spoke 650b wheels built on velocity A23 rims, with 38mm standard casing rene herse tires.  the bike is entirely too small for me, but i ride it anyway, and boy does it feel zippy and light and spritely and fast and fun.  i'm certainly no expert, but i believe if you're considering a new wheelset, the three primary variables* to consider are your weight, the type of roads you ride, and the amount of gear you schlep.  then get wheels that are built, not overbuilt, and......just ride.

paul

takoma park, md.

*discounting the other important variables: cost and aesthetics

[Joe Bernard]

"The notion that the Clem is objectively 'heavy and slow' doesn't mean anything to me."

No one claimed Clems are "objectively heavy and slow", it's about how some riders feel on them and what they can do for nicer/lighter wheels. Will they make the bike objectively a little lighter and sprightlier? Yes. Is it fun to have blingy wheels? Also yes. 

Joe Bernard

[Joe Bernard]

Here's the link at Rivbike for my wheels, I should have included it in my original post. Says out of stock but it's always good with Rich (@rivbike . com) to email him and see what he has available to build and what he thinks will match your needs/wants. The rear hub has a titanium cassette body! I love that part. 

He can also do a set with a dyno front hub if you want. I didn't need it and preferred the lesser weight, but a lot of folks swear by them and they're very useful. 

https://www.rivbike.com/products/velocity-atlas-white-industries-mi5-webspecial-wheelset-bto

On Wednesday, September 1, 2021 at 10:24:46 AM UTC-7 JAS wrote:

[JAS]

Thank you all for sharing your thoughtful comments, advice and experiences.  From keeping Clem just the way she is and being happy with the ride to changing out wheels and hubs and/or tires for something better, there's lots to consider.  I appreciate the wisdom of this group and respect your varied opinions.  If anyone has more to add, please feel welcome to do so!

Joyce

[Ray Varella]

Joyce,

I wouldn’t talk you out of wheels, I think nice hand built wheels with carefully chosen parts are a very worthwhile investment that will last for many miles. 

I would suggest that while you are wading through a lot of information about your “great” wheels, you try some lighter tires. 

There are numerous really great tires out there these days. 

I’m building up a Clem right now and used the majority of parts I already owned. Mine feels reasonably unfettered. 

I’ll get some miles on it this week and next. 

I had some Schwalbe G-Ones, the fast, light ones they use for beach racing, they are 60mm and it looks like I could fit 70s ( no fenders). 

I also have some of the Rene Herse 55mm knobbies to try. 

I spent my youth squandering my money on nice sew ups and some of today’s really fat clinchers are a joy to ride. 

Plus, you’ll have great tires for your new wheels should you choose to get them. 

Another humble opinion 

Ray 

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I had started with a stock complete Clem (65cm 'H' style.)

I've since swapped out saddle/bars/stem/grips/tires and added/removed/added different racks.

Saddle is now a vintage B-72(scavenged from a Raleigh Sports) with Breezer double rail adapter on the stock seat-post.

- I've also since picked up a seatpost shim so I could eventually use any 27.2 post (likely a 2-bolt post since I much prefer the ease of angle adjustability and less chance of slipping vs. single post post (i've had saddles slip on micro-adjust single bolts, admittedly rare and not enough to be a huge concern, bit it's happened and annoying.)

Bars/stem = Riv Bullmoose with some Ergon style grips I picked up from a local shop 'take-off bin.'

Tires = Continental MountainKing since I wanted something with more tread/grip in loose local gravel.

At the time when they announced the pre-order for the huge 65cm size I opted for the complete since I'd still have needed a set of wheels/tires and a couple other bits to make a complete combined with spare parts I had on hand so the value was in the ready-to-ride complete aspect, not having to think much about this or that, or the ultimate expense of individual parts purchases that would likely either meet or exceed the cost of the complete.

Obviously it wasn't long before I started tinkering with it but I'm still riding the stock wheels and drivetrain, despite swapping out much of the rest.  Stock bosco bars and stem were traded away long ago but I still have the stock saddle and grips around for other bikes.

The multicolored spokes are one of my favorite details, though this hasn't exactly influenced much in regard to decisions around the purchase or ugrades.  My only real issue with the stock wheelset was the rear non-drive size rubber dust cover for the hub... it would squeak like crazy rubbing somewhere so I just removed it.  This will certainly lead to earlier bearing wear I'm sure but I'd rather wear out the hub faster without the annoying squeaks and this'll just give me an excuse to ponder the same questions around what wheels/hubs to use next!

I've debated converting to single speed for a bit with a Paul Melvin tensioner I have set aside once the drivetrain wears out a bit more and/or I finally get completely sick of the occasional ghost shifting with the stock Sunrace shifters.

I've also debated moving to an index 12-36 9speed with shifter/cassette/derailer left over from a prior build that has since been put back in reserve but this might end up on one of my wife's bikes instead (waiting on final verdict on some bars to determine final shifting solution vs. current downtube shifters.)

On my shortlist for replacement wheels is the new Velo Orange Voyager wheels.  Mostly for the range of adaptability (rim/disc/tube/tubeless/38mm-2"+ tire sizes/QR/Thru-axle/etc.)  Not sure of any weight savings but more thinking it'll be one wheelset I could adapt to just about anything (I could see myself ending up with) since I still occasionally like to try something different though I am trying to simplify things so this consideration may ultimately be an over indulgence if nothing else.

Clem is absolutely my biggest bike, but not sure if the heaviest in it's current state vs. my current regular rider = an old Raleigh 700c conversion(long story how this thing evolved) with beefy 48spoke single speed wheels, rack/basket, removable rear child seat, etc.

I honestly don't even think much about Clem's weight except for when lugging in/out the front door (no garage!) and even then it's size is the greater obstacle.  In fact, it's size is what has regrettably moved it into storage for a while so it's not even getting the miles it deserves.  Between limited storage space and a single detail that made it not work with the rear child seat we already have I've had to choose another bike as my primary.

I have 2 complete single speeds stored in house, then my Clem and 2 other, old, spare frames plus parts in storage/reserve.

None of this really offers any direct solutions or recommendations to your situation (and the Voyager wheels likely aren't what you are after) but thought I'd take the opportunity to share some of my own Clem-evolution.

Best,

Brian Cole

Lawrence NJ

[Ryan]

Hi Joyce

Lighter tires would be a good first start for the Clem , as Ray mentioned. If you're interested in high-quality handbuilt wheels such as Joe mentioned...very nice BTW; I had some built for my Riv mixte...I'd use those wheels on your Platy..which is your "fun" bike, whereas the Clem is your utility bike...or, depending on what you have on the Platy, swap those over to the Clem and put the fancy new wheels on the Platypus. I'm assuming both bikes are 650B.

[Johnny Alien]

I'm a huge fan of the Pacenti wheelsets. Affordable, light and well built.

[EricP]

Good luck with whatever you choose. For my weight, the stock wheels on the Clem Jr. L are fine. But the tires had to go. They're now on my Hillborne and am seriously searching for something else in 700x45. That bike is now slower than the Clem, which shouldn't be the case.

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN