surly ogre vs riv hunq?

[R Olson]

I'm trying to decide between a riv hunq or a surly ogre.  I want this bike to be the last one I own and I want to be able to do everything with it - ride trails/single track, around town, get groceries, etc.  Has anyone owned or ridden either of these?  My impressions are as follows:  Ogre: more versatile, stronger/stiffer frame, less expensive, probably doesn't ride as good, certainly doesn't look as good. Hunq:  great looks, ride, very expensive, probably more comfortable to ride.  I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!   

[dstein]

I don't have any experience with the Ogre so I can't comment there, but in general I've never been super into the way Surlys ride. I do really like those Jones bars on the complete build though. 

I own a hunqapillar and use it for all of those purposes and can't say enough good things about it. Really nice waterford made frame and if you can afford it its well worth the investment, Rivendell bikes retain a bit of value too making it easier to resell should your mind change down the road. I have it outfitted with compass rat trap pass tires now which perform really well on road and almost all trails as long as its not muddy or super sandy, and a pair of schwalbe smart sams I put on occasionally. The one thing I'll say is the Hunq isn't super great for technical singletrack. Many people do use it for that purpose just fine, but I found that I lacked confidence on technical singletrack with hunq and crashed a good bit (I eventually got a Jones plus for single track riding - which is also another option for an all rounder). I'm not so sure the Ogre would really be any different on technical singletrack though. But for general trail riding, fire roads around town, commuter, errands - I even use it on about half of my road rides now because I love those rat trap tires so much - a hunqapillar with a front rack and wald basket can't be beat. Also I've tried a million handlebar combos and I'm a huge fan of Albastache bars for an all rounder bike. 

I'm assuming you live in an area where you cannot easily ride either (ie, not the bay area?). 

[Chris Lampe 2]

I would love to have a 54cm Hunqapillar but my finances are such that I ride an 18" Karate Monkey, which is almost the same bike as the ogre, just with lighter tubing and fewer braze-ons.  My KM is 1st generation (KM is now on 3rd generation) but the geometry that matters is the same as 2nd generation KM's & the Ogre.   

The main differences:

Hunq has lower BB (1.2 cm)

Hunq has longer chainstays (fractionally)

Hunq has slacker seat angle

Hunq has "livelier" steering

Hunq is beautiful and classy

Hunq has a skinnier fork that may provide some suspension

Ogre is stiffer, maybe substantially stiffer

Ogre has more tire clearance

Ogre has option for disk brakes or cantilever/V-brakes

Ogre has a 1 1/8" threadless steerer (I consider this an advantage)

Ogre is relatively inexpensive

To be honest, in practical terms I don't think the Hunq offers much over the Ogre.  There are some slight geometry differences but even Grant states that components can make more difference than a centimeter or two difference in geometry.  

On a more subjective level, the Hunqapillar is gorgeous bike, both in appearance and concept, and it's pretty much in a league of it's own, to my eyes.  

A couple of other things to consider:

There is a very high probability that a new version of the Ogre will be announced very soon.  Surly made substantial changes to the Troll (Ogres 26" cousin) and have hinted that similar changes are in store for the Ogre.

Also, if you are buying a frameset and building it up, you can set up an Ogre with disk brakes and fat tired 650B wheels and you'll be in Bombadil territory.  I've seen both 55mm and 67mm BB drop for the 650B Bombadil so I don't know which is accurate but the Ogre has 68mm of BB drop.   I'm considering going the 650B route with my Karate Monkey.

My 1st Gen Karate Monkey with 60mm Big Apples:

[Chris Lampe 2]

I forgot to specify that I have never ridden a Hunqapillar but I want to some day and I hope the experience is such that I have to have one!

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 10:46:23 AM UTC-5, R Olson wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

I've never ridden either an Ogre or a Hunq, but that won't stop me from speaking.

I've owned 5 Rivendells, and each of them, despite their great differences, had a signature "Grant designed" ride that includes supreme stability with unerring turn-in and this at least in my own experience with many bikes set any Rivendell bike apart.

Me, I'd not always choose a Rivendell over another bike, but, well, it's brought me back 4 times for another one. I hear that even the stoutest-tubed, most cruiser-ish Rivendells ride "light" and "fast" and "nimble." Me, I'd intuitively choose the Hunq, myself. (And then braze on disc mounts ... hahahaha.)

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 6:39 PM, R Olson <ryan.tre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm trying to decide between a riv hunq or a surly ogre.  I want this bike to be the last one I own and I want to be able to do everything with it - ride trails/single track, around town, get groceries, etc.  Has anyone owned or ridden either of these?  My impressions are as follows:  Ogre: more versatile, stronger/stiffer frame, less expensive, probably doesn't ride as good, certainly doesn't look as good. Hunq:  great looks, ride, very expensive, probably more comfortable to ride.  I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!   

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[Garth]

  Is there a reason for just those 2 as choices ?   There a other frame builder who can build exactly what you want for less than the price of the Hunq . I get a sense you do not really know what you want though .....

 FWIW, I own a Bombadil and a custom frame from a local builder in Ohio, and these 2 bikes ride, feel and handle vastly different.  As for the "Riv feel" it is what it is, I do find on slow technical stuff the Bomba handling to be a bit unintuitive/sluggish compared to my other frame, getting easily knocked off line by front wheel obstacles.The Bomba responding mostly to rear body and sometimes needs a lot of input, while my neutral trail custom responds to upper and lower body input equally well and with ease at any speed.  Both are nice for meandering in their own ways though.

   As for perceived quality of the frame, my custom is better, and this was not a high end custom by any means.  The Waterford Bomba , kind of surprised by some things I need not get into. All I'll say is just because it's built by Waterford, or anyone really, it does not necessarily mean it's attention to detail is top notch or not.

[Chris Lampe 2]

Just curious, what is neutral trail?   60'ish?  

[Garth]

   50'ish Chris. 

[Richard Rios]

Really just depends on how you ride. If you plan on doing any sort of trail riding go surly all the way. If mostly roadish then go Rivendell. I own both Rivs and Surlys. I find myself reaching for one of my surlys 9 out of 10 times. Off road i really haven't found a rivendell I prefer the ride of to a surly. As for on road slow steady long distances the Riv is better. Just my 02.

[David Stein]

I threw my support behind the hunq, and as much as I hate to throw other bikes into the mix of a two bike question, i gotta ask: have you considered the clem smith jr? It seems to be the ultimate budget Rivendell all rounder, but I'd be curious to hear how clem smith owners like it on trails or single track. I only bring it up because if it was available when i was buying my hunq a few years ago it would have been a touch call given the price difference.

On Sun, Oct 2, 2016 at 1:57 PM, Richard Rios <richard...@gmail.com> wrote:

Really just depends on how you ride. If you plan on doing any sort of trail riding go surly all the way. If mostly roadish then go Rivendell. I own both Rivs and Surlys. I find myself reaching for one of my surlys  9 out of 10 times. Off road i really haven't found a rivendell I prefer the ride of to a surly. As for on road slow steady long distances the Riv is better. Just my 02.

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[Tony DeFilippo]

Any time you're in search of a 'last one' of anything that sets a pretty high bar! That said you picked two great bikes to compare and won't go wrong with either.

How important is the Riv styling to you? I think it boils down to that, are you willing to pay for the Riv lugs, paint and overall style or would you be satisfied by the more workmanlike surly...?

With the exception of disc brake availability i don't think the Ogre has anything over the Hunq on versatility. Both can be set up for singletrack but both make compromises over a dedicated trail bike in the use.

I've got a Bombadil and have taken a Hunq for a quick spin once or twice, they're awesome bikes that to me epitomize Riv all rounder-ness.

[Richard Rios]

In regaurd to clem jr as an option, I know many here will disagree with this but long chainstays and a lowish bottom bracket in my experience didn't make for a great off road ride. This is based of a good bit of time spent abord a proto hunqapillar with 650bees and long cs. I would boil it down this way in terms of ride quality what are you looking for. Smooth and stable Rivendell. speedier and playful Surly. Both great bikes but different priorites wise.

[dstein]

Richard - makes sense on the clem, but is the proto hunqapillar part of the new design? would hate to hear it is becoming less of a trial bike with a lower bb and longer cs.

[iamkeith]

How tall are you? I ask because, for tall people, there's a bigger difference between Surlys and Rivs than for medium or shorter people. Surly's stack heights / head tube lengths dont grow proportionately the way Riv's do with the bigger frames. So you likely end up with a huge stack of stem spacers to get the bars up high enough on a larger Surly.

[drew]

I have a hunq. I've never ridden an ogre. I got it to be a dedicated touring bike, and it does that so well, But it really excels at so many things and is the best riding and most comfortable bike I've ever been on. I ride it on road rides regularly because it's just that much more fun to be on (albeit heavier).
Couple things- I can't imagine wanting a bike any stiffer.
I take mine on trails, fire roads, all sorts of surfaces and never worry, but I don't think it is the best option if mtb riding is the main priority. it's more of a stout all purpose bike, in my opinion.

[Will]

Maybe you should consider this...

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1tzm8kVi8b_-qE-ykhxM21ie83Q303d2jQ5EYdrpF-kI/viewanalytics

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 10:46:23 AM UTC-5, R Olson wrote:

[RJM]

Really think about how much trail riding you will be doing and if that trail riding will be sort of aggressive single track with roots, rocks, switchbacks, a little air time with steep descents and ascents. If you think you will be riding frequently like that, get the bike that has disc brake tabs and install a set of hydraulic brakes like Shimano (xt and slx are very good brakes). IMHO, they are a huge improvement in every way, even safety, over cantis, v-brakes, or even mechanical disc for that type of riding.

It's not an Ogre, but I had the pleasure of riding a Surly Krampus this past weekend. Man, that bike was a blast.

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 10:46:23 AM UTC-5, R Olson wrote:

[Chris Lampe 2]

I should have specified that I weigh 385 so stiffer = better is specific to my situation.  The most responsive bike I've ever ridden was one made of oversized aluminum tubes.  That thing was like a rocket for me.......but aluminum  :(      

This is actually my largest reservation about any Riv.  I look at the skinny little chainstays on even the Hunqapillar and wonder if it's going to be a noodle under me.   

[Jeff Lesperance]

Both bikes would work in the "all-arounder" concept, and both will give you an underbiking experience pending how gnarly the single track and trails are that you may ride, but I'd suggest based on the options for disc brakes and various frame and fork gear mounting helpers, the Ogre will take you further before the terrain outstrips its capabilities. 

I have a Troll, the Ogre's 26" wheeled brother, and I've taken my Sam Hillborne on some gnarly stuff that I've envisioned the Troll not breaking a sweat over, while I really had to proceed over-cautiously with the Hillborne. I've likewise had the Troll out on terrain that I wouldn't dare take the Hillborne without resorting to some dismounting and bike-shouldering. Granted the Hillborne is not a Hunq.

The Ogre clearly has none of the retro/beautiful bike aesthetic that the Hunq has, but I daresay with all of it's utilitarian features, the Ogre looks like a pretty smart bike in person.

That being said, Surly recently overhauled the Troll and the Ogre's cousin, the Karate Monkey, with some new modern features that I don't think that the Ogre is slated to get for this model year: through axles with Boost compatible spacing, room for wider tires and the Troll now has a non-suspension corrected front end. If you're a retro grouch you may not care about these features but if you're buying your last bike, and the Ogre is your pick, I might wait to see if these features make it into next year's model.

I've owned a few Riv's, and some have felt like magic all the time, while some only have that feel in specific conditions. If I were able to take a Hunq out for a spin and it had that unique Riv magic feel that aligned with my cycling style, it'd likely be a winner here. If I closed my eyes and it didn't feel terribly different from the Ogre or, for that matter, any old steel mountain/touring bike from the late 80's early 90's then I'd likely give the Ogre the nod. 

I guess one more thing... I dare say that the Riv's striking good looks have been a detriment in some cases- pending where I want to ride and potentially lock up, I just can't take a Riv, but I never question taking my Surly.

-Jeff 

Silver Spring, MD

On Wed, Sep 28, 2016 at 8:39 PM, R Olson <ryan.tre...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm trying to decide between a riv hunq or a surly ogre.  I want this bike to be the last one I own and I want to be able to do everything with it - ride trails/single track, around town, get groceries, etc.  Has anyone owned or ridden either of these?  My impressions are as follows:  Ogre: more versatile, stronger/stiffer frame, less expensive, probably doesn't ride as good, certainly doesn't look as good. Hunq:  great looks, ride, very expensive, probably more comfortable to ride.  I'd appreciate your thoughts. Thanks!   

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[Bob K.]

Personally, I think small-frame 29ers look a bit silly and strangely proportioned, so if you're a S/M as opposed to a L/XL, I'd go with the Troll over the Ogre. I'm sure that any of the aforementioned bikes would perform well for what you're seeking, but keep in mind there are tire clearance differences. Someone on this list told me that he fit Surly Extraterrestrial 2.5s on his Hunq. The Troll fits 26"x3". Ogre is somewhere in the 29 x 2.8" ballpark.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[David Stein]

Jeff - I hear you point on the Sam Hillborne but that's not a totally fair comparison to the hunqapillar. The tire width alone on the hunqapillar makes it much more capable on rough terrain then the Sam (I've ridden both on similar trails). Plus with the new 650b hunqs you can get an even larger diameter (for the small sizes anyway which were 26"). I was the first to chime in and still feel the hunq isn't the best on twisty, rooty, rocky, technical single track, but it's totally fine on everything else. Would be curious to see how you felt on a hunq on the same trails (vs. the troll) if you ever get the chance ;)

On Mon, Oct 3, 2016 at 9:07 AM, Bob K. <bob...@gmail.com> wrote:

Personally, I think small-frame 29ers look a bit silly and strangely proportioned, so if you're a S/M as opposed to a L/XL, I'd go with the Troll over the Ogre. I'm sure that any of the aforementioned bikes would perform well for what you're seeking, but keep in mind there are tire clearance differences. Someone on this list told me that he fit Surly Extraterrestrial 2.5s on his Hunq. The Troll fits 26"x3". Ogre is somewhere in the 29 x 2.8" ballpark.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[Jeff Lesperance]

Certainly agree. Tire size is in scope here along with front end geometry and I guess I'm thinking that the Ogre is closer to the Troll and Hillborne closer to the Hunq, but I could also be making an idiotic assumption, wouldn't be the first time.

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[Will]

Well... if this selection is the LAST bike, you want the Riv. You will age into a riding profile of more general commuting, errand running, regular trail and road riding. You will age out of gnarly.

I don't have a Hunq, I have an Atlantis. Close enough. You will never regret having a beautiful, very competent, frame.

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 10:46:23 AM UTC-5, R Olson wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

"I want this bike to be the last one I own"

Gosh, what a depressing thought.  Granted there will be a bike that ends up being the last one I buy, but I will never want a bike to be my last bike.  

Bill "I-buy-bikes-therefore-I-am" Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 8:46:23 AM UTC-7, R Olson wrote:

[Austin ^]

While I generally agree with this sentiment, the exact opposite has happened to me. Hell on the joints. 

[adam leibow]

i got myself a hunqapillar as my first rivendell, and selected and inspected an ogre for my dad, which he now rides daily and loves. honestly, this is a great "problem" to have because they are both great bikes. however, hunqapillar screams "forever bike" way more than ogre. the versatility of the hunqapillar is incredible: mountain bike, touring bike, mountain touring bike, grocery getter, commuter, and all while being a classically styled lugged american-handmade steel show-worthy bicycle. of course the ogre can do all of the tasks the hunqapillar can, but you don't get that romantic sensation you get from riding a rivendell. 

On Sunday, October 2, 2016 at 8:46:23 AM UTC-7, R Olson wrote:

[Philip Kim]

Both would be good. I would also give the updated troll a good look, 26x3 is such a good platform imo

[Justin August]

Owning a Krampus I can say that they are heavy. Like really heavy. I would definitely test ride the Surly to see if it's what you want. The weight and lack of response to pedaling needs to be experienced to understand.

If anyone wants to buy a nicely equipped Krampus let me know.

-Justin

[RJM]

What size?

[Garth]

  It sounds like a "tank" , literally !   Yeah, weight does not matter until it kind of, overwhelms the matter ! 

[Chris Lampe 2]

Speaking of the Krampus, it's brother the ECR is also something to consider and I would probably choose it over the Ogre.  The ECR has 80 mm of bottom bracket drop (same as Hunq) and the chainstays are 45.1 cm slammed forward and would be 46.5 cm with Monkey Nuts installed.  I would buy a frameset and build it up with normal MTB size (2.2 to 2.5") tires but the option would always be there to do the whole 29+ thing.  The word back on the ECR is that it's long, low and stable.  

I'm not sure how heavy the ECR is but my Karate Monkey, as a single-speed with 40 spoke touring wheels and 40mm Duremes weighed 24 lbs or less.  

[Chris Birkenmaier]

I also have a Krampus for sale.  Small frame.  Sorry for the glomming on to this thread!

[Ryan Ray]

Being that you are in the Riv group, dissenting opinions are going to be hard to find here.

But, I have an Ogre and have ridden a ton of Surlys and owned 1 Riv.

- The Ogre will be a little bit more stout but not by as much as people here are saying.

- The Ogre will ride better with weight on it. I actually don't like the dead feeling much either but once there is weight on it, it feels great.

- The Ogre fits much larger tires.

- The Ogre is FAR more capable off road than the Hunq will ever be. Specially if you are on the tall side and might use longer cranks.

- You won't cry a little bit every time you get mud or a ding in your paint with the Ogre.

If you want" just one bike" get the Riv. If you are looking for something to take off road for extended periods of time get the Ogre. If they were the same price I'd still get the Ogre specifically for off road touring and MTB trails.

- Ryan

[RJM]

Well, the Krampus is a 29+ bike that is going to sit around 30lbs, so yeah, it will be heavy. The one I rode was fun though...I think the geometry of it and the grip of the really fat tires helps hide the weight. (same with the Ros 9+ which I find to be a nicer bike than the Krampus).

Sometimes weight has a way of not being that big of a deal, but you are right...when the terrain overwhelms the weight it really does make a difference.

[Tony DeFilippo]

Chris L or anyone w/ experience.  The ECR has a wider BB shell, 73 vice 68... seems pretty negligible but I've never ridden a wider BB myself.  If the ECR is your 'only bike' would you be ok w/ the wider tread? 

Several have mentioned the Ogre fits larger tires, 2.5 vs 2.25(ish).  I'm really curious what the collective thought is on how much added capability that 2.25-2.5" tire gets you as I'm sitting at 2.25" myself w/ the Bombadil and I've kind of been thinking that 3" is really the minimum wider tire I'd target if I wanted more offroad chops. 

--

[masmojo]

Ogre Vs. Hunq.?
I would say go with the Surly! Why? Well, they are inexpensive &as you've figured out the Surly & the Hunq. sort of overlap a little. So get the Surly, then a little later get an Atlantis or Cheviot to do the things the Surly is not so good at.
Actually, let me muddy the water a little more and suggest you look at the SOMA Wolverine and the Velo Orange Piolet!
Just to confuse you a little more! ;-)

[Chris Lampe 2]

My Karate Monkey is my only bike and it has a 73mm BB shell.  To be honest, if I hadn't installed the bottom bracket and crankset, I would have never known it was not 68mm.  I don't know, but I suspect that I'm built for a larger Q factor, anyway.  I think road Q factor cranks would be very uncomfortable for me.  The wider BB shell might also add to the stiffness of the frame, but I'm not sure about that. 

My understanding is that the Ogre/Karate Monkey will actually fit a 29+ tire on the front.  It's just the rear that is limited to 2.5".  Check out Surly's Extraterrestrial 2.5" tire, it is massive compared to a normal MTB tire.   This is a 26" Extraterrestrial next to a Mondial.  He doesn't specify the width of the Mondial but he seems to imply it's a 2" tire.  

On the bike   

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 3:04:19 PM UTC-5, Tony DeFilippo wrote:

Chris L or anyone w/ experience.  The ECR has a wider BB shell, 73 vice 68... seems pretty negligible but I've never ridden a wider BB myself.  If the ECR is your 'only bike' would you be ok w/ the wider tread? 

Several have mentioned the Ogre fits larger tires, 2.5 vs 2.25(ish).  I'm really curious what the collective thought is on how much added capability that 2.25-2.5" tire gets you as I'm sitting at 2.25" myself w/ the Bombadil and I've kind of been thinking that 3" is really the minimum wider tire I'd target if I wanted more offroad chops. 

On Tue, Oct 4, 2016 at 1:41 PM, RJM <crccp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Well, the Krampus is a 29+ bike that is going to sit around 30lbs, so yeah, it will be heavy. The one I rode was fun though...I think the geometry of it and the grip of the really fat tires helps hide the weight. (same with the Ros 9+ which I find to be a nicer bike than the Krampus).

Sometimes weight has a way of not being that big of a deal, but you are right...when the terrain overwhelms the weight it really does make a difference.

On Tuesday, October 4, 2016 at 8:02:54 AM UTC-5, Garth wrote:

  It sounds like a "tank" , literally !   Yeah, weight does not matter until it kind of, overwhelms the matter ! 

On Monday, October 3, 2016 at 11:46:35 PM UTC-4, Justin August wrote:

Owning a Krampus I can say that they are heavy. Like really heavy.  I would definitely test ride the Surly to see if it's what you want. The weight and lack of response to pedaling needs to be experienced to understand.

If anyone wants to buy a nicely equipped Krampus let me know.

-Justin

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[Tony DeFilippo]

Chris that does look pretty significant and if you can go 29+ or 27.5+ in the front that would allow for some significantly different off-road capabilities. Also interesting about your experience with the 73mm bb, I think the full day bikes are around 100mm which would be more noticeable.  Is really like to test ride a '17 Karate Monkey in 27.5+.

Masmojo the Piolet and Wolverine are solid additions for consideration... Good call!

Tony

[Patrick Moore]

73 mm was the standard, or a standard, bb shell width for mountain bikes back in the early '90s, if not at other times. Both my Stumpjumper Comp and SJ Team had 73 mm shells, and IIRC, that made no discernible difference to the Q of the cranksets of the time. I may well have inadvertently installed 73 mm bbs in 68 mm shells at one point or another, with no sign other than a few more threads sticking out on the non drive side. At any rate, 5 mm was too small a difference to notice, especially given the differences in Q caused by variation in the "flare" of the arms on different cranks.

[Chris Lampe 2]

I've decided that I want black rims that are much wider than my Dyads and I might 650B my Karate Monkey.  I believe the new KM's have about 55 mm of BB drop and my KM has 68 mm.  I don't think I'll ever run anything less than 2" tires so the effect would be a slightly lower BB, lower trail on the front-end and more tire clearance, all positives in my book.  I'm pretty sure 27.5+ tires will fit a KM/Ogre.  I would even consider going 26" wheels if I went with Extraterrestrials.  I've ridden a 700c bike with 26" x 55 mm Big Apples and there were no problems.  

[Chris Lampe 2]

When VO previewed the Camargue, I thought I had found my bike.  Similar capabilities to a KM/Ogre but in the form of a more normal bike.  It was quite literally a much less expensive Hunqapillar in all but looks.  Unfortunately, I kept hearing about QC problems with that particular bike and for whatever reason, VO discontinued it.  I haven't heard any issues about any of their other bikes and the Piolet is interesting but I don't have disk compatible wheels or I would have considered it before I bought my KM.

[Justin August]

My Krampus is a medium. Hit me up off list if you're interested.

-Justin