Rivendell Timeline - it's happening!

[Jason Fuller]

I spent the afternoon and evening trawling the full set of Riv Readers, as well as old copies of the Rivendell website via archive.org (it was veloworks.com/rivendell first, then it was rivendellbicycles.com, then moved to the current home of rivbike.com - I've perused probably upwards of 100's of snapshots of these sites today).  

I don't have nearly as deep of experience with Rivendell as some of you so I wanted to run this timeline by y'all and see if you can point out omissions or errors in my timeline. There are a lot of permutations of some of these models of course - I have pretty detailed notes about where each model was made (including many which went through a few shops) in addition to the timeline, which I plan to include in whatever final form this takes.  

Please let me know if you see something missing or incorrect!  Note: I left Protovelo's out because I'm not considering prototypes to be relevant; I might be missing some Rosco's but only the Bubbe 51 and Road 55.5 are ones I have any info on. The step-thru version seems to have snuck past my research so far. 

 

[Jared Wilson]

Nice work Jason.

[Fullylugged]

Nice Jason, and needed.  The Road was followed quickly by the Road Standard, I think by '96.

[iamkeith]

Good effort.  I bet that was fun, digesting so much at once.  My comment is that I don't think I'd discount the original Appaloosa or "mystery bike," which is different from the current Appaloosa.  I know it was 'sort of' a prototype, but they were produced for specific, paying customers - exactly the way early Roads, All Rounders and Mountains were - with no design input from the buyers and - unlike those others - they DID have an actual model name and head badge.  I don't think I'd consider them insignificant either, as they were the experience that led to the current long chainstay, longer top tube models and the big swept-back bars like the bosco.  Kind of key to understanding the whole evolution.

[Jason Fuller]

Cheers for the feedback! Yeah, it was pretty wild to go from about a 3/10 to a 6/10 overnight on my Rivendell knowledge (still a good ways to go before I'm any sort of expert).  Of course, my "knowledge" is limited to what I've found either in the reader or on the website for the most part, and there's a lot that's not really covered in those spots.  

I wasn't sure whether to consider the Road and Road Standard as different bikes, but I'll separate them out yeah.  So then on the '95 lineup, was the Road a semi-custom while the AR and Mountain (Expedition? Should I include this alt name?) were set geometry?  From memory the Road was the cheapest of the three so I was a bit confused by that all. 

I'll research more on the Gen 1 Appaloosa and Mystery Bike because I omitted them out of unawareness rather than conscious decision. I welcome (heck, I beg for) any insight or leads you may have in this regard.  I think I'd also like to highlight in this timeline when models either underwent significant geometry changes or changed builders (AHH and Atlantis being obvious ones).  This might turn into a full wiki, not sure yet, depends how bored I get this winter I guess!  I have webhosting available, just need to sort some stuff out on that end. 

[Jason Fuller]

My understanding of the Mystery bike so far (all lifted from Tom Allingham's Flickr):  Produced in 2012 (?) as an Appaloosa exploration, with the swoopy mid-stays and fabricated by Nobilette. Any idea how many were produced, and whether I got my production year right?  And am I missing gen 1 Appaloosas, ie did they happen between '12 and '16 when the MIT batch rolled in?  

[Joe Bernard]

Nice work, Jason!

I believe the only difference between Road and Road Standard is the LongLow became available, which prompted the original Road model getting a name added to express it as one of two road frames. 

As I recall the Mystery Bike was offered and sold to 10 people, I've only ever seen two of them. 

Joe Bernard

[Bruce Herbitter]

Yes the Road was semi custom, while the standard had fixed sizes.  The supplier of dropouts changed between them and the TT went from level to upsloped.  The HT could be normal or extended on the Road but was only extended on the standard. The extended HT continued in the later Rambouillet too, which descended from the Long Low. 

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On Nov 27, 2021, at 1:58 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Nice work, Jason!

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[Joel S]

Very nice Jason, I had 2 Roads, one in ‘97 (a 53cm)the other in ‘2000 (a 54cm which was probablt right) . An AR in ‘99 or so and a Custom in ‘2002 or so (a 56cm that Grant measured me for). Also a Saluki (56cm but too bid)  then 2 Bleriots, (55cm’s) one was going to live in Brasil.   I bought a Ram frame before that but never built it up realizing after the Saluki it would be too big (hence the Bleriot).  I bought an Atlantis 2 summers ago but sold it quickly and got a Hillborne.  I have a ‘54cm Saluki frame coming in and then the last of my 2 Bleriot frames will go up for sale.  Rivendells just seem to be good for my back so I stay with them. Douglas Brooks many years ago saw a post I had made on a bike forum about my back and steered me to Rivendell and helped me over the years a great deal.  
Nice to see the timeline. 

[Joe Bernard]

Disclaimer added: I'm speaking of strictly production models. The line between "production" and "custom" was always a little fuzzy in the early Waterford days; and even now my "custom Rivendell" hews tightly to Grant's ideas of what a frame should be. For my purposes in the discussion a custom is any Riv frame where you were able to change a spec at purchase time.  

Joe Bernard

[Jason Fuller]

These are great tweaks, I am updating my draft paper copy as we go and all this will be included in the digital version - thanks Joe, Bruce, Keith, and Joel!  I'll be sure to credit the RBWOB in the footnotes of this thing. 

I'll try to think of a way to graphically represent semi-custom, prototype, and production from each other. For the builder I am thinking color-coding. It'll kind of show the Waterford era, into the Toyo era, back to Waterford a bit more before mostly going MIT. With other builders sprinkled in of course. Should be a neat effect.  It's worthwhile adding the start of the official custom program, I expect, as well.  

I think small at-time-of-order tweaks such as braze-ons and paint choice will be outside the scope of this infographic - certainly part of the beauty of Rivs is that they cannot be fully described by such means :D 

[esoterica etc]

I would also include the San Marcos in the timeline! Made by Soma but designed by Rivendell, it was in production from 2011 to about 2015. Similar to the way the Bleriot was the "cheaper" MIT version of the Saluki, I believe the San Marcos was the budget alternative to the A. Homer Hilsen. I have a San Marcos and have ridden an AHH, and their ride qualities and geometry are extremely similar. 

~Mark 

Raleigh, NC

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[Karl Wilcox]

I am glad to see you got the ‘Redwood’ frame in there!

Cheers,

Karl

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[Jason Fuller]

Yeah good point about the Soma, if I'm going to mention Heron by the same logic that frame should be included. I debated that one also. 

Redwood is a neat one, being a different name for the tallest sizes! I assume the distinction is some design difference (tubing?) to suit the extra big 65/68 sizes? 

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[Pam Bikes]

I love the drawing.  Please keep it in the digital version.  I connect better w/handwritten, hand drawn.  More comprehensible to me.

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

I did a version of this back in 2012, pictured below, but ran out of steam and did not keep it up. Jason, I can send you the file if you like, but it's easy enough to re-create. (You may have done that already.) I made an effort to try to capture a lot of detail, including employee details, but a lot of that was hard to chase down, hence the lack of cells filled in.  Good luck with the project, and I look forward to the next version. 

FWIW, when I was doing the badge posters (and I need to update that...) I talked to Grant about including Heron and SOMA, and his opinion was very much YES for Heron, but not so much for SOMA. His opinion may have changed, but to date I have not included SOMA in any of the posters. 

Marty

[Ryan]

Customs...I feel Riv started mixing tubesets(Reynolds/Vitus/Columbus)  and tweaking geometry around 1998 when they were moving away from Waterford and working with Match. I think customs started with Joe Starck in 1999 and they added Curt Goodrich around 2000 or thereabouts. My 2000 Road delivered 2001 was a Goodrich frame. With high demand they used other builders , one of them being Richard Sachs. Mark Nobilette has been their sole custom  builder for a long time...but not sure when JS and CG stopped and Nobilette started. 2005 or so?

[Steven Sweedler]

Ryan, I thought Riv was building customs from the begining. I had a 96 Road that was designed for 700 x 28 and had cantilever brakes The original owner,who I bought it from, spoke of it as a custom build Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

[Sofie C]

Love this Rivendell history, thanks so much for putting this together and sharing!

[Eric Daume]

I’ve never heard that they used Sachs as a builder. Hasn’t he always had a long waiting list?

I think they’ve used a Sachs fork crown or lugs, or maybe he used theirs. 

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[Nathan F]

Eric,

Sach's decade long waiting list is a recent invention from frame building's explosion in popularity around the late 00s / early 10s. It wasn't always that difficult to have him build you a bike.

In the 90s I believe he designed some lugs for Rivendell, and then later made 3 frames or so for them when they were shopping around for builders? Not so sure on the numbers for that second part, but I know they didn't use him much. 

Nathan

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[Ryan]

Steven, you are right about "unofficial customs" like the snapshot of an early catalogue posted by Joe Bernard mentions where it notes a 300.00 upcharge. And Nathan is right that during a peak demand period they used some US top builders for customs and RS was one of them. I think one was for sale on this group a few years ago

[Jason Fuller]

Aaah so much good insight here, and it's fun to see that others have done exactly what I'm doing after all!  Marty, thanks for posting that up, I had completely missed Project Buffalo, and somehow never noticed it when scanning the readers despite it's full-page coverage.  I think I skimmed right past it because it does not look like a typical Riv!  I'd also missed your head badge poster before (I clearly need to visit more often) and I WANT ONE!

Can folks scrutinize the accuracy of this builder list?  I know a lot of these batches have probably had additional builders doing the odd one to fill in for production gaps etc.  I don't know where to draw the line, but good to have more info than less! 

  

[Bruce Herbitter]

Sachs designed the lugs used on the earliest models.  He didn’t make them or any frames. Waterford was the earliest vendor and as others have noted, a few other small builders have helped over the years, Nobilette most recently. Toyo did several frame models for a period of about 5 years, and Panasonic had one too. Panasonic and Urema did painting in Japan.  Maxway in Taiwan has been a major supplier of late.  

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On Nov 28, 2021, at 10:07 AM, Eric Daume <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve never heard that they used Sachs as a builder. Hasn’t he always had a long waiting list?

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[Joe Bernard]

As Ryan stated there are in fact a few RS-made Rivs out there. Very few. 

Joe Bernard

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[Bruce Herbitter]

Those are pretty collectible then!

Sent from my iPad

On Nov 28, 2021, at 2:24 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

As Ryan stated there are in fact a few RS-made Rivs out there. Very few. 

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[iamkeith]

Regarding builders:  Joe Starck definitely built Road and All Rounder frames.  I'm not so sure he built Rambouillets, unless perhaps a prototype or two?   

It occurs to me that the Roco Bebe kid-carrier bike is missing from your list.

[Philip Williamson]

I agree about the charming hand-made artifact-ness of the paper and ink version. It’s super clear and well designed. There’s lots of space to the sides for builder names or notes.

Philip

Sonoma County, Calif

[Paul Brodek]

I have a Starck-built '98 Custom Road, serial stampings and signature shown below. Photo is from the previous owner. JS was definitely building for Riv in '98-'99.

Paul Brodek

Hillsdale, NJ USA 

[AJ]

Received my fire red bombadil in 2008.

[Ted Durant]

A bit of clarification. The original three models, Road, All-Rounder, and Mountain, were intended to be of standard dimensions as drawn by Grant. They were built to-order, though, and they very quickly went from semi-custom to full custom as customers requested their own unique changes. It was partly out of frustration over that evolution that Grant, Waterford, and I decided to create Heron. The intent was that Heron frames would be the standard, no-options frames, built-to-stock, and it would allow Rivendell some room to increase prices and allow for customization of the Rivendell frames. Heron Bicycles was a joint venture between RBW, Waterford, and me. That distinguishes it from the San Marcos, which was solely the property of Soma. The Rambouillet and subsequent models built in Asia were a replacement for Heron, as Grant was unhappy with the economics of the Heron JV and with some inconsistency in the production by Waterford.

As noted elsewhere, the Long Low was added pretty early on, and you had Road Standard and Long Low as separate options.

Ted Durant

Milwaukee, WI, USA

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Buffalo was the original name of the Bombadil.  

- J

[Cyclofiend Jim]

First mention of the Bomba was RR #39, Spring 2007

http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/bombadil/index.html

[Cyclofiend Jim]

Rambouillet were all Toyo-built.  
The first run (orange) had a mis-positioned rear brake bridge as has been documented. 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/rambouillet/

[Jason Fuller]

Now that Ted and Jim are commenting, I feel like this timeline project has officially made the big leagues haha!  Thanks guys!  Jim, I was inspired to pick up from what you've already contributed to so much on your page. Ted, that is great insight straight from the horse's mouth as it were. Much appreciated that you took the time!  

Bombadil start date updated to 2008; San Marcos included with [Design Only] notation, and I'll update Ram to Toyo only; I had noted down that Curt and Joe had produced a limited number as well but I can't recall where i got that from. 

[Jason Fuller]

(To clarify, I am using available-to-customers date for my start date, hence 2008.. which I think is right?)

[Hugh Smitham]

Jason, this is yeoman's work you are doing here, very much appreciated and happily following along. Question on the Atlantis timeline. Toyo to start, and now MIT but didn't Waterford make a batch or two along the way? And how about adding the design period between the Toyo and MIT. If I have this right, Grant lengthened the chain stays but kept a shorter TT, I want to say this was ~2017 then extended the TT in the current MIT iteration. Rivendell offered the current geometry to buyers starting in 2018? IMHO this distinction is significant, as the Atlantis took a large departure from its long-held geometry.

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep moving.” ― Albert Einstein

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[Chris L]

The Mystery Bike/Appaloosa happened shortly after I discovered RBW, so 2012'ish sounds about right.  

My memory is that Grant put out feelers for 10 people to buy a new bike, completely sight unseen with no input (I don't remember if they were allowed to choose color) into the bike.  I don't recall if they were completes or F/F/H, but $4000 sticks in my mind as being the cost.  

I have several really good photos that were posted of those bikes.  

[Jason Fuller]

Oh wow, that's the shortest rear end and smallest size proto-Appa that I've seen!  At this rate, might just have to buy riv-wiki.com (it's available!).  Thanks for all the contributions. 

[Michael Baquerizo]

any info regarding these two bombadils? asking because they're the same, but different. and one is very close to that appa proto posted above.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fbiketouringnews.com%2Fadvocacy-awareness%2Ffat-tire-pioneers%2F&psig=AOvVaw25kPjnVkOVG8DFUipsAyrC&ust=1638418047191000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCPCKmoTdwfQCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAD

and 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.flickr.com%2Fphotos%2Famisingh%2F8034138028&psig=AOvVaw25kPjnVkOVG8DFUipsAyrC&ust=1638418047191000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=0CAsQjRxqFwoTCPCKmoTdwfQCFQAAAAAdAAAAABAJ

gotta love the swooping diaga-tube.

[Jason Fuller]

Michael - they switched from the dual TT style to the diaga-tube in 2010 on Bombadils :)  So the diaga is the newer version 

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

To satisify my own itch, I did a series of photoshop mockups of the first diagatube Hunqapillars beginning Monday, April 5th at 7:59am. Two versions - one that is like the production version we ended up with, and another that had extended "mixte" like tubes that ended near the rear dropouts. (That one sort of became the Bombadil ultimately.) These first mockups led to more than 20 others, prompted by an email from Grant who saw the posts here and wanted to explore different color combos and other details. It all happened pretty fast. Here are mockups #1 and #2, and a couple others along the way. If you look closely at the front tire markings, you can see how I kept track of the various mockups. For the record, here is the thread where these were revealed and all of this is discussed (passionately!):  

DiagaHunq Discussion

It was fun to be a small part of the history of this great bike. I owned one for a short time, but it was way too small for me, and had some damage. Looking back, those chainstays look ridiculously short! My current Clem H is all the Hunq I need now. 

Marty

FYI - to facilitate the mockups I was using a pic that was posted on the Riv site somewhere - it was Jay's bike:

This one in orange and grey, with a cork lift handle idea. Not sure who's bike this was. 

OK - this one was a stretch...

And a black & grey version I kind of liked. with graphics on the mid-tube.

[Marty Gierke, Stewartstown PA]

Oh - that was in 2010 of course.  

[lconley]

I bought what I think is a Mystery Bike from Rivendell, it hung around as a shop bike for a number of years before they sold it - much longer wheelbase, maybe it was a Mystery bike prototype. many photos before the sale referred to it as the long bike:

It had an Appaloosa head badge and Protovelo decal on it when it was sold to me as an Protoveloosa. It is now a single speed:

 I also have a diagatube Bombadil:

I built it up as a 3x7 touring bike - sorry about the bad picture:

Laing

Two Rivendells with diagatubes and tentacles.

[Joe Bernard]

Tentacles! I remember them being called that because I came up with it. Then Grant popped in here and said "they're tentacular!" 😁

Joe Bernard

[Chris L]

I'll have to check out that thread.

As a gray/orange Hunqapillar owner, I much prefer the darker shade of orange shown in your photo here.  

[Tom Goodmann]

This thread is the best reading I've done this week, although it makes me want *all-the-Rivs*!

Tom (in Miami, where it's peak riding season)

[Jason Fuller]

Marty - those photoshops are amazing. 

Tom - it's having the same effect on me; it's a problem. I am now in search of a Rosco step thru in the 54/55 size. 

[Slin]

@Jason - this is really cool! I did a search and came across this because I was thinking about doing something very similar but also including when the models were discontinued and any lineage type relationships:

Atlantis <-> Appaloosa

Glorius/Wilbury -> Betty Foy/Yves Gomez -> Cheviot -> Platypus

[Jason Fuller]

Slin, that's a fun idea to do it as a family tree kind of infographic!  I haven't gotten around to polishing this into a digital form like I meant to, but with the holiday break coming up I might take the opportunity to then, and am really liking this idea of doing it as a branched structure based on successors  

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[Slin]

I started playing around with different ways to visualize it. Here's one using a spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gu7_PQVDZn0iQtx81oHQ_X3mhDMcngiJK1AVxHleQ_Q/edit?usp=sharing

[brendonoid]

Oh, this is exciting!

I think Grant has/had the all-rounder category between the hillibikes and the country bikes. So the Atlantis/Appaloosa was an all-rounder whilst the Sam/Homer was a country bike.

Unfortunately the nomenclature has been somewhat fluid along with the concepts of what certain models can and should do. Overlap all over the place, makes categorizing super hard.

[Masa]

Jason, this is a really exciting idea! I appreciate your research, compiling and the handwriting chart from scratch. 

And Slin, it's amazing that you created the spreadsheet so detailed! I can't wait to see it is updated.
Masa

2022年12月12日月曜日 20:02:04 UTC+9 brendonoid:

[Alan Barnard]

Olivier Chetelat’s photos of the proto-Appaloosa are located here:

https://www.flickr.com/photos/olipop/8418423327/in/photostream/

[lconley]

They kept one Mystery Bike around the headquarters for a few years - sometimes called the long bike. I bought mine from Riv in October 2016 - they called it the Protoveloosa at that point and put an Appaloosa head badge on it. I have played around with various guises. It is now a single speed. The bike I rode the most in the last year - fits my short-leg, long torso body very well.

[Slin]

Yeah, I totally agree that the bikes have been categorized different ways over the years. I quickly threw the spreadsheet together and thought I was using the categories on the current rivbike.com - 'Roadish' , 'Touring & Trailish', and 'Comboish - Country Bikes'.  The names are different, but that's what I was thinking. Clicking through there, the Atlantis and Appaloosa are in the 'Touring/Trailish' category.

[Joe Bernard]

Then there's the pre-Rivendell timeline which has an article in a Bridgestone catalogue by Chris Kostman about "underbiking"..he was riding an RB-1 with skinny slicks on singletrack. Which Grant design is a Hillibike? All of them! 😂

[Doug H.]

Joe, we now all know you can only ride singletrack on a full suspension bike with a dropper post nowadays...everything else is underbiking. Ha, I write in jest. The Rivendell timeline is neat to see. Most of the names on the list are fantastic names for bikes!

[Joe Bernard]

With an electric motor! 🤣