Have you ever considered trading in your Sam for an Appaloosa?

[Damien]

So here's the situation. I've got a super hot lead on an orange 51 Appaloosa, but I'm already deep in it with a sage 51 canti Sam. Initially, when I was looking at these bikes, I was torn between the two. I ultimately leaned Sam because at the time I liked the colour and it was more available. Well, things change I guess! I'm more seriously entertaining a move to the Appaloosa because:

• Sweet long chainstays
• Can carry more (?? Is this true??)
• Will likely work better for me with upright bars (Sam felt too cramped for me with Albas)
• Better tire clearance for fattish knubblies or fatter tires + fenderage

What I would love to do here is tap the forum's collective wisdom to see if the grass is really greener. Has anyone made the move from Sam to Appaloosa, or vice versa? What were your feelings? What did you miss on the old bike when you made the move? What did you love about the new bike that the old bike couldn't live up to?

I'm approaching this a bit more cautiously since I already regret selling another Riv I owned (Roadini - my regret is well documented, I believe). That said, I imagine I'll need to act fast to get the bike before someone snags it. In a perfect world I'd keep both, but we all know the world isn't perfect, and I do have to live within the very real constraints imposed upon me by my lovely partner who for some reason isn't cool with me having umpteen bikes.

Anyways, enough of my incessant rambling. Thank you for reading and helping to encourage my hobby of buying bikes then selling then replacing then modifying then selling then replacing then buying then crying then selling then complaining then... (and so on and so forth). 

[Bill Lindsay]

Clearly you need both.  The Samuel Hillborne should be set up with drop bars and road tires, and should be your all-road machine.  A Joe Appaloosa with much wider tires and Albatross bars would be a great complement to that Hillborne.  The one you discard from your stable is the one you would never ride.  Those two bikes are very different bikes.  You need them both, unless your cycling activities are a single, focused kind of activity.  It would be a stretch to build out a Hillborne trying to make it be an Appaloosa.  It would be a stretch to build out an Appaloosa with skinny tires and drop bars and try to make it into more of a sporty road bike.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Joe Bernard]

It's a sellers market right now, which may not be helpful on the Appaloosa end for you but you'll definitely get decent money for your Hillborne. I've only ridden the Appa (it's great) so can't compare, but I say get the model and color you really want. 

Joe "always keep the custom, anything else can come and go on a moment's notice" Bernard

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-7 Damien wrote:

[brendonoid]

The trick is to only sell a bike after you haven't ridden it for five years. *looks at shed full of bikes*. Works perfectly.

Honestly though I have both and the last 3 years the 2 Appaloosa's (one crashed then replaced) have been ridden a lot more than the hillbourne. But that is my preferences, my type of riding, my local terrain, my bike setups, climate etc etc etc.

[Bones]

Have you ridden the long chainstays? If you have, and you like them, there's a point for the Appaloosa. Sure the Appaloosa can probably carry more, but do you need to? The NEW Appaloosa is definitely better for upright bars (I had both a 2019 Appaloosa and Hillborne, which were very similar geometrically). The tire clearance and fenderage is definitely a big plus for the Appaloosa as well. I have since sold both older bikes and I have a new Appaloosa and Roadini. I went with a new Appaloosa for all the reasons you listed. Honestly I don't know what I would do if I could only pick one bike. I guess I would pick an Appaloosa! But Bill is right, you need both. Have you considered purchasing some bikes for your partner? That's what I did. Now if my wife gets on my case I just point out that SHE doesn't need four bikes and to stop counting mine!

Good Luck!

Bones

[brendonoid]

My last post wasn'tactually helpful, sorry.

The long chainstays on the Appaloosa are really good and its hard to go back to shorter chainstays now. All those reasons you listed for trying the Appaloosa are why I love mine. I sort of feel like you won't ever feel 100% happy with the Sam.

You SHOULD try both, I agree with Bill, but sometimes practical considerations do not allow such things.

[Kushan]

"Have you considered purchasing some bikes for your partner? That's what I did. Now if my wife gets on my case I just point out that SHE doesn't need four bikes and to stop counting mine!"

Ingenious...

[Ed Carolipio]

Hi Damien,

I like Bill's response the best - get both - but as a former Appa owner and having read discussions on these comparisons on the board, here's my opinion on each of your points:

• Sweet long chainstays - Likely not something you can sense - I think chainstays are balanced with other parts of the geometry - but it helps with heel clearance for rear panniers
• Can carry more (?? Is this true??) - Sams easily can do "practical" loads, like a commuter bag or some groceries. Appa and the Atlantis are for if you plan on hauling far more impractical loads. To be fair, the Appa had a talent for riding about the same no matter what I was hauling. Can't say that for the Surly Troll I owned previously, which felt dead unloaded and didn't come alive until it was absolutely loaded down.
• Will likely work better for me with upright bars (Sam felt too cramped for me with Albas) - Might be a discriminator. The Appa was ideal for all sorts of swept back bars and had that wondrously expansive top tube. That also made for a larger front triangle so, even at 51 cm, I could run carry a frame pump and run 24 oz bottles.
• Better tire clearance for fattish knubblies or fatter tires + fenderage - Published difference is 6mm. Probably only significant if you want to run knobbies off-road, and even then it's just to increase your tire choices (lots of options for knobbies at 27.5 x 2.1, though manufacturers are offering more options at 650b x 48 for gravel) than the extra volume.

No regrets on selling the Appa since I replaced it with two Rivs (a Homer and a GBW) to cover a broader usage spectrum without having to change over the bike.

--Ed C.

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-7 Damien wrote:

[Eric Marth]

I like what Bill said: keep both but set them up with different bars and tires. If that's a stretch perhaps you could snag the Appaloosa frame now and then gradually acquire parts as it's practical. I can't think of a better combination than an orange Appaloosa and a sage Sam Hillborne. 

Joe also has a good point, if you have a strong preference just go with it. 

Did you determine that the Sam felt too cramped with Albatross bars after trying longer stems? 

[Collin A]

As others mentioned, get both.

Currently I have a Ritchey Outback that is setup very sportily (narrow drops, 40mm tires, 450mm chainstays) and a Joe Appaloosa that is slowly becoming more bikepacking-friendly and trail oriented (wide drops, 50mm knobby  tires, dynamo) after serving time as my road rambler (I still like wide drops over uprights, or I should say my 30 yr old body is OK with it for now).

My only point to add is that its a lot easier to run a smaller tire on a frame with big clearances than a bigger tire on a frame with tighter clearances, especially when the BB drop is the same. If you want to experiment in more dirt road/off road riding, the Joe would be your ticket.

Collin, cooler than PDX, in Sacramento

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-7 Damien wrote:

[Erik]

I have both and have done pretty much exactly what Bill recommended: my Appaloosa is my workhorse that I use for carrying loads for commuting, camping, etc.  I use it about 50/50 on road and off road.  It's worked best with upright bars.  I briefly had drops on it, but I much preferred the a more upright riding position on that bike, particularly with heavy loads on it.  I've ridden it piled with lots of racks, bags, and gear and it feels great.   I've run Albatross, Chocos, and Boscos on it and never felt cramped.  By contrast, my Sam has been built up to be 90% road riding with drops.  A lot of the roads that I like to ride are in really bad shape, so the 38's work really nicely to provide some cushion.  I run 50 Gravel King SKs on the Appaloosa on aCliffhanger / SON dynamo wheelset.  The Hillborne has a really light but strong A23 / White Industries wheelset.   

While there are some intrinsic differences to the bikes, (by design and geometry) the biggest differences are in how I set them up.  They do not feel anything alike as result: the Appaloosa is stable, surefooted, and heavier; the Hillborne livelier and lighter, but stable. The set up for each leans into what they were designed to do, but I've deliberately pushed each in a different direction.  I'm also a heavy rider, so I'm near the top end of the recommended weight limits for the Hillborne with even a modest load which limits how I would use it.   The Hillborne is newer to me, but so far I like having both. Having the SamH filling the grab-and-go-ride-the-road role let me tweak the Appaloosa to be better suited to the type of riding I do on that bike.   

Now I just need to get that Gus Boots Wilsen and I'll be satisfied and not need to buy another bike....    

[Joe Bernard]

Several have answered with keeping both bikes, which I don't think is an option presented to us for this thread. 

Joe Bernard

On Monday, June 28, 2021 at 2:30:58 PM UTC-7 Damien wrote:

[Erik]

Good point!  Based on my experience, my size / weight, and my riding environment, the Appaloosa would be the winner if I had to choose between the two.  It has a wider range of uses for me.  

[JP]

89.9999 pbh 185lb 46ish 

I have a 10 year old or so 60cm sam with albatross and a high high double in the front.  I have recently lowered the front stem to get in a more roadish posture and it seems to balance the weight better front to back for me?

I bought a 2021 appaloosa 57cm with tosco cliffhanger shikoro.  Haven't received it yet.   I bought the Joe based on loving the length of my brothers MIT 62cm atlantis - also i felt my dad's 63cm homer always felt nice even though it's supposed to be similar geometry to the sam.  

I am pretty sure would sell the sam but it doesn't seem like i'd get even 1250 or so and my people want me to keep it at that "market value."

I am a casual rider and do not expect to carry camping gear nor to club ride.  But i would like to cruise up mt diablo (i've never ridden up all the way) would a roadish bike make the goal easier?  I don't know but don't expect so.  Otherwise i am not certain what more bikes would add even though i would buy another if i could find a "reason."    

[Joel S]

I ride a Hillborne ans a Bleriot, I am not a fan of the longer chain stays.  I started using albatross bars when they were introduced on mt custom and AR. I set up my Saluki and then my Bleriot with them. When I started riding again last year (layoff due to back issues) I Foy find the Bleriot a bit squirrelly.  It took a bit to figure out how to ride with this bike and albatross again.  I switched the Hillborne and Bleriot to Choco bars this year and I like them better.  I do not ride upright, I will gave my hands over the brakes and as far up as what might be equal to the flats of drops.  I have handy different positions with these (now my favorite bars).  I think using drops or albatross is more about your riding style than the bike.  Just my opinion.  

As far as swapping the Hillborne for an Appaloosa, I looked at both and actually brought an Atlantis in, it was sold within a month and then I got the Hillborne and I have never looked back.  The Appaloosa is very similar to the Atlantis.  

Enjoy your Sam Hillborne. 

[Damien]

Think I see what most people are saying, and a few things have stuck out to me:

• Both bikes are good, but having both of them would be better to cover off all sorts of riding (Sam for more roadish endeavours, Appa for more load/trails/wider usage)
• A bigger difference-maker is how each bike would be set up, but it wouldn't make sense to set up my Sam to be what I'd want an Appa to be, and vice versa
• There is a difference between the new Appa and old one, as the new one may be better suited to more upright bars

To answer a question above, the longest stem I have used with the Albas was 120, but at some point, a super long stem begins to feel a bit goofy

Super appreciative for all of the insights, knowledge and thoughts dropped here! Please keep them coming. The bike in consideration is one of the just-released orange Appaloosas, so would have the new geometry, and I would likely just transition parts over from the Sam and sell the frame.

[JRStern11]

Sorry for the crazy typos, these iPads have a mind of their own.  

Sent from ProtonMail for iOS

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[Ben Mihovk]

I'm feeling this post today! I have an Atlantis and love it and have no plans of ever getting rid of it. I do, however, have the itch for something a little more sprightly and nimble with drop bars. I strongly desire a Homer, but I think I'm a v-brake guy for life now and would prefer a Sam (though would need mini-V brakes if I understand how traditional road drop bar brake levers work). Love hearing everyone's feedback on this as I was thinking about posting something similar. 

TL:DR - I have nothing to add to this other than I feel the pain of wanting two Rivs for two different styles of riding...but know in my heart I'd be fully content just having what I've got. 

Ben "no help" in Omaha. 

[Jason Fuller]

Ben - regarding V-brakes and drop bars, there are a couple long-pull levers out there, and the best of them is made by Cane Creek.  So, don't fret about drops and v-brakes, it's doable! 

Regarding Sam vs. Joe... I think it comes down to a couple things: 
- Are you planning to run fenders?  If not, both bikes can fit a decent size tire, even the caliper Sams.  If so, that'll reduce the Sam's offroad capabilities somewhat
- Are you a heavier or lighter rider?  If you're sub-200lbs I wouldn't concern yourself with which will carry a payload better, as they'll both carry a lot. 
- What percentage of off-pavement riding will you do?  I would stick with the Sam if you're above 70% pavement, but no doubt the Joe will start to make sense as that number drops

They'd be such complimentary bikes as Erik has illustrated, but if that's not feasible for cost or space reasons, it's a funny thing:  it's a heck of a difficult decision, but at the same time, you can't go wrong with either.  

[Ben Mihovk]

Excellent to know about the long pull levers! Thanks! Gets me kind of thinking about building up a full drop bar cockpit for my Atlantis to see how I like it...

[Damien]

Just an update here. I decided to stick with the Hillborne since I had so many great rides on it the past few weeks and knew I would regret selling it.....

......aaaand someone else nabbed the Appaloosa - looks like the decision was made for me!

I may consider going back to upright bars at some point in the distant future, but may try some that aren't Albatross. I would consider a Wavie or Bullmoose since they don't seem to sweep back as much and the angle seems nicer. I also have some SimWorks Fun 3 bars collecting dust in the parts bin that might end up on there one day, but for now, the drops will be just fine!

[Bill Lindsay]

The ranked order of regret severity from highest regret to lowest regret is generally:

1.  I regret selling bike X

2.  I regret not-buying bike X

3.  I regret buying bike X

4.  I regret not-selling bike X

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[JRStern11]

Damien, I switched from Albatross to Choco bars on my Sam and am very happy with them. I do not get the same rise as on the Albatross and have more hand positions.  I tried an Appaloosa before buying the Sam, did bring an Atlantis in (basically the same bike) and found I was not a long chainstay rider. I personally would vote for the Sam which for now is the only show on town for you.

Enjoy

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