Going around in circles with shifters.

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Ben Adrian

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Aug 24, 2022, 9:48:00 PM8/24/22
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Hey all! Just looking for some gear chat.

I have a Rambouillet with drop bars. I'm finally getting everything comfortable, but I've been around the block with my shifters.

My bike came with 8 speed bar end shifters. However, when I did my first configuration I mounted them on the downtube. They worked great. It was kind of a bummer to reach down, but I went with it because I loved the simplicity and getting the cables off the handlebars. 

After a while I decided to put them back in the bar ends. I had previously used bar ends for a long time, so it felt like home. However, I have a front Mark's rack with a basket and the derailleur cables were always getting in the way of the front stuff.

So I just ran the cables fully under the bar tape and that install works great to get stuff out of the way, but now my shifting performance is pretty bad from the twisty cable runs; much worse than any other configurations.

So, nothing is really broken, but I know it can be better. Wondering if I should try again with a new take on the "not under tape" routing. Or try downtube again? Or just go nuts and look for a used STI system?

Let's chat!
Ben


Jay Lonner

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Aug 24, 2022, 10:01:09 PM8/24/22
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Stem shifters using the IRD mount is one option:


I ran these for a while, didn’t love them. The band clamp broke eventually, which struck me as a design flaw (though it’s been suggested on this forum that I may have overtightened it).

There’s no reason you can’t run thumbshifters on a drop bar, I’d probably mount them right next the stem clamp, a la brake interrupter levers.

Maybe you could find a pair of Kelly Take-Offs on eBay or something? Never tried those myself, but have always been curious about them.

Sounds like you might be happiest with brifters though, if you’re OK with indexed shifting.

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

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On Aug 24, 2022, at 6:48 PM, Ben Adrian <bunny...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hey all! Just looking for some gear chat.
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Joe Bernard

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Aug 25, 2022, 1:43:21 AM8/25/22
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Did you do the super-long cables thing? You should be able to have them come straight forward from the bottom run of the bars, then loop back under the basket. Picture two cables looping out pretty far forward; I've tried the "keep em short and out of the way" version and it doesn't work, I liked them long and floppy where they would gently flop away from any load pressing on them*

*I have no idea if this makes sense. 



Steven Sweedler

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Aug 25, 2022, 6:56:51 AM8/25/22
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Ben, after decades of using bar ends I switched  to stem shifters and haven’t gone back. I really like the short housing  run instead of the very long housing run under the bar tape. Using older Suntour friction shifters. Steve

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Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

Eric Marth

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Aug 25, 2022, 11:34:29 AM8/25/22
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Ben — Reading your post two things came to mind. Joe, Jay and Steve mentioned them. Try running longer cables and consider stem shifters. There are lots of the Suntour stem mount shifters on eBay for less than $20. I haven't run them before but I do own some, I think they're pretty cool. 

Do you think you can acclimate to downtube levers? Or is that a dealbreaker, no-go sort of option? 

Alexander Chalmers

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Aug 25, 2022, 11:41:55 AM8/25/22
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I'd just go for STI personally. Rode with downtube shifters for a long time and they work well, but the ease of use of STI shifters is hard to beat. I never loved shifting from bar ends personally. 

You can find older SRAM 10 speed stuff pretty cheap, and it's all compatible with their mountain derailleurs which is nice if you want to run a bigger cassette. 

Another couple options would be Gevenalle, or (if you can find them) Suntour command butterfly shifters. Never used either personally but they seem like cool alternatives to more conventional shift set-ups

Wesley

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Aug 25, 2022, 12:30:27 PM8/25/22
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I've recently been in a similar situation - I was finding the cables from barend shifters to be annoying in my hands. Downtube bosses are too low (I'm 6'3" and have a tall headtube, so the downtime is a big reach). For now I have elected to try stem-mount shifters and so far it's been great! I think of them as downtime shifters without the need to bend & reach. For one kind of shift (depending on how you install them) they function like thumb shifters - I grab the inner part of the bar with my hand and my thumb pushes the shifter forward.

Anyway, I didn't want to spend a bunch of money experimenting (I'm going broke trying to find a bar/stem combo I love, lol). So I used a pair of these (pictured). They are cheap junk but surprisingly useful!
Screen Shot 2022-08-25 at 9.23.56 AM.png

-Wesley


On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:48:00 PM UTC-7 bunny...@gmail.com wrote:

Joe Bernard

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Aug 25, 2022, 12:53:29 PM8/25/22
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I should add my bias here: I love bar-ends on drops, the drop-down from the hoods to push/pull a shifter is all that and a bag of chips. But if you're into brifters and want to spend the cash, go for it! 

Jeffrey Arita

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Aug 25, 2022, 3:15:35 PM8/25/22
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Ben: I will add my 2 cents: we are big bar-end fans - they are on the bikes that have drop handlebars.  We only go friction - not indexed, so YMMV.  We use front racks and Wald baskets, and yes, depending upon your specific setup, the pair of long "U" cable and cable housing can get in the way.  Try routing the big U's under the Mark's rack and then zip-tie them to the rack so they are somewhat stationary.  Finally zip tie both U's together so they act like a single unit.  Yeah, it looks clunky but it might help keep those big U's under control.

Good luck,

Jeff
Claremont, CA

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:48:00 PM UTC-7 bunny...@gmail.com wrote:

Ben Adrian

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Aug 25, 2022, 5:44:26 PM8/25/22
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I love all the replies and knowledge here. It's pretty fun.

I did a little test. I put my RD in the biggest cog. I then shifted all the way down to the smallest cog without pedaling to put slack in the cable. Then I pulled the cable tight at the downtube. Then I shifted back up to the biggest cassette without any derailleur spring tension in the way. It actually felt pretty smooth. I never did this test BEFORE this routing, so I have no control, though.

I will say that just a couple days before I ran new cable that I put a derailleur hangar extender on the rear so I could go up to a 32t rear cog with my Ultegra 6500 derailleur. It works fine, but I wonder if some of the shifting resistance is more about making larger cog jumps and running my derailleur out of spec, and not entirely cable friction. Also, I've been running the bike in indexed mode.

So, step 1 is to go to friction mode and hang out on the smaller side of the cassette; see if it feels any easier. If so I'll have to figure out where to go. If not...
Step 2, try the long floppy cable thing.
Step 3. consider Tiagra 4703 and a 4700/5800/6800 long rear derailleur. I have a 2x10 4700 setup on a budget carbon road bike and it was actually pretty good. It looks like they have a 3x10 lever setup. I know that RD can handle a 34, shifts smoothly, and is easy to set-up. Plus a 10s cassette will still fit my older wheels.

Or I just go back to a high end, ratchet, downtube shifter and learn to love it ;) Keep this circle going!

By no means should this kill the conversation, though. Chat away!

Cheers!
Ben

Joe Bernard

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Aug 25, 2022, 9:28:41 PM8/25/22
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I love the look and direct connection of dt shifters but only on other people's bikes. If it's not on the bar I ain't shifting it! 

Bill Schairer

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Aug 26, 2022, 9:38:13 AM8/26/22
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Having ridden for years with a front handlebar bag, I guess I'm just used to pushing the cables from the bar end shifters one way or the other to mount or unmount the bag.  That said, I now run my Atlantis with a DT front shifter and bar end rear shifter for two reasons unrelated to cable/bag interference - for some reason, my left hand is less tolerant of the shifting motion required for the bar end shifter than my right and, on past tours, my front derailleur has at times become balky in dirty conditions which I attribute partially to the derailleur spring having trouble overcoming the additional friction caused by dirty cable housing.  I find the front shift much more reliable and quick with less effort with the DT shifter.  On a two month tour just completed, I had zero troubles with front shifts despite lots of gravel and rain whereas one week tours on gravel of past with bar end required daily lubrication and exercise of the front derailleur and still things could get balky.  For whatever it is worth, a couple of the guys I toured with used brifters and suffered from similar issues.  The downside was the double shift to or from the granny was not nearly as smooth as with two bar ends but at least they always did happen.  I just don't worry much where I've got to push the cables from the bar ends. I have another bike with two bar ends and a bag which works just fine for me on day rides.

Bill S 
San Diego

On Thursday, August 25, 2022 at 2:44:26 PM UTC-7 bunny...@gmail.com wrote:

Ben Adrian

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Aug 27, 2022, 4:46:45 PM8/27/22
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Scene report!

To the Riv out for an urban cruise today. Shifting was still terrible. I did some tests while riding where I just leaned over and pulled on the shifting cables between the stops and the bottom bracket. The shifting was really smooth. So it must be the cable going through the handlebar bends while under load/tension. Around the circle I continue to go...

Scott Luly

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Aug 29, 2022, 1:00:14 PM8/29/22
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Maybe shifter itself or cable interfacing with shifter is jacked?
Both front and rear?
Plenty of bikes out there running smooth with cables running along bar bends.
That's frustrating. Hope you find source.
You've started process of elimination. I'd continue that path...
Good luck!

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shopmonkey 39

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Aug 29, 2022, 1:02:35 PM8/29/22
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Here's some ideas based on personal experience as I have barends on a handful of bikes.  First idea since you are already there, would be to turn your indexing off on your shifters.  I have this on a bike and it works great in friction mode.

Second idea.  If you are open to other models of drop bar, you can look for something with more run out.  I switched to Soma Highway Ones and the extra run out has allowed me to run cables that apex just before the basket.

Third.  Run your cables long enough so they sit on top of the basket and when your bag is full it just pushes the bag up.  My cables are just shy of the zipper on my Sackville and as it fills the cables are pushed up by the load.

Fourth.  One bar end and one down tube.  This is my commuter set up.  The front shift is on the down tube (non drive side) and I still shift it with my right hand thru the triangle.  My bar end cable sits on top of my bag again in this one but not by much.

Fifth.  Gevenalle shifters.  I love these and they work great for basket bikes and even sometimes saddlebag on the front bikes.  I would choose it over STI everytime.

Alot of this is based on the size of your bike, stem, bars, etc.  Also keep in mind that STI depending on the size of your bike and bars can sometimes hit your basket or bag.  I ran 44cm bars and occasionally if my bag was stuffed it would be a struggle to shift.  

Jay Lonner

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Aug 29, 2022, 1:30:58 PM8/29/22
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I had never heard of Gevenalle before but those shifters look awesome. If I ever run drop bars again (maybe a Stargazer?) I would absolutely give those a try. Thanks for the suggestion. 

Jay Lonner
Bellingham, WA

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On Aug 29, 2022, at 10:02 AM, shopmonkey 39 <shopmo...@gmail.com> wrote:

Here's some ideas based on personal experience as I have barends on a handful of bikes.  First idea since you are already there, would be to turn your indexing off on your shifters.  I have this on a bike and it works great in friction mode.
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Ben Adrian

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Aug 29, 2022, 2:57:10 PM8/29/22
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On Monday, August 29, 2022 at 10:02:35 AM UTC-7 shopmonkey 39 wrote:
Here's some ideas based on personal experience as I have barends on a handful of bikes.  First idea since you are already there, would be to turn your indexing off on your shifters.  I have this on a bike and it works great in friction mode.


I've tried this, and yeah, friction is a little better but still stiff.
 
Second idea.  If you are open to other models of drop bar, you can look for something with more run out.  I switched to Soma Highway Ones and the extra run out has allowed me to run cables that apex just before the basket.

I actually am running 42cm highway one bars. I'm not sure what you mean by more run out. However, I'm thinking maybe I can do something like start to run the housing out of the bar tape once the bar starts to curve upward. This might make the shifter cables run upward out of the bars rather than forward?
 
Fifth.  Gevenalle shifters.  I love these and they work great for basket bikes and even sometimes saddlebag on the front bikes.  I would choose it over STI everytime.

I had considered these, but I wish I could try them first. I've never seen them in real life.
 

Alot of this is based on the size of your bike, stem, bars, etc.  Also keep in mind that STI depending on the size of your bike and bars can sometimes hit your basket or bag.  I ran 44cm bars and occasionally if my bag was stuffed it would be a struggle to shift.  

This is a fantastic point. Shimano STIs on a set of 42cm wide bars with a loaded front basket seems like a bad idea.  

Thanks for your thoughts!
Ben

Garth

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Aug 29, 2022, 5:03:00 PM8/29/22
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While I get everyone trying to sell on you new parts and all Ben but it seems it's a cable routing issue. Why not call Riv and ask someone there as they've seen countless setups applicable to yours if you're not sure how to do a "super long" cable run ?  For that matter, the simplicity and universality of DT shifters is often overlooked. So you've got to move your body to shift, so ? !

Ben Adrian

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Sep 1, 2022, 10:33:11 PM9/1/22
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8F29AEE8-D2A8-486C-948A-B8E8155FCE84.jpeg
This seems to be working pretty well.

Nick Shoemaker

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Sep 3, 2022, 9:15:26 PM9/3/22
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I've always run 10sp Campy brifters with a Shimano 8sp cassette on my San Marcos. No funky cable trickery required, you just set them up like normal and end up with 7 functional clicks using any standard Shimano derailleur. I think it's far-and-away the most riv-ish option for brifters if you look for the alloy ones that look like this (the cutout lever is key!):


PsPtM.jpg

They are:
  • silver
  • conspicuously mechanical
  • fully rebuildable
  • confusing to the matchy-matchy sensibilities of Serious Cyclists™
  • different from nearly every other riv build
  • shifters


Karl Wilcox

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Sep 3, 2022, 9:48:52 PM9/3/22
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Thanks Nick for the tip— I always preferred 8 speed, now I can run it again.
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Dorothy C

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Sep 10, 2022, 10:42:14 AM9/10/22
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I do a half and half set up with my Roadini - Silver One levers, front shifter on the downtube and rear shifter on an IRD stem mount.  You can just leave out the left threaded insert from the stem mount for a neater appearance

On Wednesday, August 24, 2022 at 6:48:00 PM UTC-7 bunny...@gmail.com wrote:
B93F0AF0-E4E0-4C90-B58D-0D38F97B847E.jpeg

Ben Adrian

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Sep 19, 2022, 5:57:24 PM9/19/22
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Pointless updates because I just like talking bikes. 

Ever since I rerouted my cables, my performance has been very good. However, I've never tried any of the Suntour/Silver ratchet shifters and I've always been curious. I found a used set here so I grabbed them. I gently removed my rear derailleur cable, wrapped the cable and housing, and tied it down to my rack. Then I mounted the SIlver shifter to the DT boss an ran the a new rear cable to the RD. WOw, these are really nice. And the direct cable run gives me the smoothest performance yet. 

So now... set up the front and leave it as a DT shifter bike, or try mounting the Silvers on my Shimano pods and do full friction bar-end? 

Ben

Joe Bernard

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Sep 19, 2022, 6:18:21 PM9/19/22
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It all depends on how much reaching you can live with. DT is simpler, more direct and IMHO looks great, but I got no patience for reaching to the downtube to shift. Bar shifting for me!*

*This also depends on how often you shift. I have physical issues that require me to shift a lot in my hilly area to keep a good spin going, I could probably live with DT if I rode my bike more like a singlespeed that occasionally needs a different speed. 

Richard Rose

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Sep 19, 2022, 6:53:11 PM9/19/22
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I am with you Ben! First 20+ mile ride with the Silver thumbie rear. Shifting is buttery smooth - love it! It is so responsive & precise feeling.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 19, 2022, at 5:57 PM, Ben Adrian <bunny...@gmail.com> wrote:

Pointless updates because I just like talking bikes. 
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Ben Adrian

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Sep 21, 2022, 1:00:01 PM9/21/22
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More shifter nerd talk!
 
Attemped to mount the silver shifter onto the shimano pod this morning and ran into a snag. Many of you probably know this, but if not, here's the deal.

Here's a photo of the Shimano Pod. Thanks Park Tool!

There is a little extra half-circle of metal on the little square area where one fits a spacer/washer. The shimano spacer fits right over it. The standard square-hole washer does not. Riv obviously knows ths=is because their silver pods do not have this half-circle.

The only reason I can fathom why this is there is to make the Shimano pods not be compatible wiuth other bands of shift levers. They probably don't want people futzing around. I believe I can dremel that half-circle off and fit my washer, and it will also not affect the shimano performance in any way if I want to put the Shimano shifters back on. 

For now, I will remain a downtube shifter user and see if/when I go crazy ;)

Ben

lconley

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Sep 21, 2022, 1:45:22 PM9/21/22
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The half-round function is to locate the indexing function of the indexing shifters correctly. Not strictly necessary, but it makes it impossible to install an indexing shifter incorrectly - idiot proofing. It is easily removed with a file or Dremel to allow silver or Dia-Compe friction shifters to be installed.

Laing

Ben Adrian

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Sep 23, 2022, 7:57:10 PM9/23/22
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Since I didn't REALLY want to mangle the pods, I decided to dremed the square centered washer spacers. A few minutes carefullt carving on each and I got the stopper washers to fit over the indexing alignment bump.

Here's hoping for the best on my ride this evening. 
I really live in a charmed world... Amixing shifting on the downtube where I have to lean dow a couple inches vs quick-access bar end with MAYBE a bit of bonus friction from the housing. 

Cheers!
Ben

Pam Bikes

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Sep 30, 2022, 2:40:38 PM9/30/22
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I love this conversation and have learned alot from it.  I'm not the only one to be bothered w/cable routing, etc.  There is no perfect solution - long cables, impaired shifting, down tube or stem shifters...  I have bar ends (friction) on albatross bars and long cables which sometimes get in the way of closing my front

 bag.  fanny.jpg

David Person

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Sep 30, 2022, 6:07:00 PM9/30/22
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Adding to Ben's comments.  I've been running Shimano Dura-Ace 9-speed bar ends on my bikes for awhile, in friction mode.  Recently wanted to see what, if any, difference Silver2 shifter would be.  So last week I purchased one Silver2 lever for the rear to try on one bike.  Yes, had to use my Dremel to shave off the little nub on the Shimano pod, which doesn't affect the ability to go back to using the Shimano shift lever.  After a few days of riding with the Silver2 lever the verdict is in and I've switched back to the Shimano lever.  Smoother operation and more comfortable ergonomics, in my opinion.

Joe Bernard

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Sep 30, 2022, 6:14:15 PM9/30/22
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I can't comment on the Shimano comparison but I've used Silver1 and 2 as bar-ends and liked that long blade better. The way you can drop your whole hand and pull up on the ratcheting direction with your two rear fingers (pinkie and the other one) can't be beat for friction shifting. 

David Person

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Sep 30, 2022, 6:33:47 PM9/30/22
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With the Shimano's I find I often shift with the lever between my pinkie and ring finger.   Almost effortless and one of those things one does without thinking.

Ben Adrian

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Oct 16, 2022, 1:08:42 AM10/16/22
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Just wanted to check in. I've been using the SIlver 1 shifters as bar ends for a while. Overall, things were good, but I did have some ghost shifting under torque and something just seemed less than precise. For the record, I've been using my Ultegra 6500 RD with a hanger extender to get up to a 32 on the back. 

I took my bike to my list member Jason's house to use his hanger alignment tool. It was a little better, but still had some issues with ghost shifting under torque. I noticed that there was a little left-right play in the derailleur hanger bolt interface. 

So, I happened to have a 105 R7000 RD (11 speed) kicking around. I put that on with no idea if it would work. Surprise, it works really well. Silver 1 shifter, 11 speed RD, 8 speed cassette, 9 speed chain.
I was still getting occasional ghost shifting, especially on larger cogs. Much better, but still not perfect. I felt like there was stil a little cable play and imprecision on the rear... Like it sometimes settled into a position.

It was raining today, so just for fun I mounted the shifters on the downtube again. I'm getting pretty quick at this. The improvement felt dramatic to me. I'm using off brand shift housing, and I don't know how well the housing is sitting in the shifter pods. I just have a feeling that something is amiss in that the pod to housing to cable stop interface.

So, I'll roll with this for a while until if and when I get annoyed by something. I'll pull my cable housing from under the tape and try some kind of alternate routing if I get restless on the next rainy day.

Now I'mjust having fun.

Cheers!
Ben

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