Newbie here: Are Phil Wood hubs worth it.

[Powderpiggy]

I plan to purchase a Betty Foy....I have been oggling the Betty Foy's
online since as long as they have been around, and the Glorius before
her. This would be my first Riv (and probably only as I don't have
huge expendable income). This is a major purchase form me so I am
thinking it would be worth it to make sure I don't just go cheap, but
get it built up to something that I will love for years and years and
not wish I had spent a little more to get an upgrated X or Y.

I plan to use the Betty Foy for short tours (7-10 days likely the
longest), bike commuting, tootling around town, and perhaps centuries
or longer (I have a very lightweight road bike that has served this
purpose but is not suited for touring, commuting, tootling, etc).

Soooo....my thought is that the wheelset would be the most important
thing to upgrade (beyond the 'budget' wheelset. Are the Phil Wood
hubs really worth the money? What would you do? I am hugely
intimdated by the cost but am intreged with the 'Riv' Phil Wood hubs
that work with a freewheel. I have no experience in this area as my
only bike has a cassette.

What would you upgrade and why?

[PATRICK MOORE]

First, I'd get a cassette hub instead of a fw hub; much easier to find replacement clusters. Perhaps others know something I don't and fws are easier to find that I know, but one certainly sees more ads for cassettes than for fws.

As to PW quality: My 1999 custom Joe Starck road fixied turned 10,000 miles not too long ago -- I found that the Avocet 35 had been stuck at 9,999 for some time, so I don't know how long ago -- and the Phil rear hub and the Phil bb are as new, to tell by their smoothness. Of course, the old SunTour cartridge front and the Tange RollerBall headseat are also as new ....

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[Patrick in VT]

On Jul 16, 5:02 pm, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:

 I am hugely
> intimdated by the cost but am intreged with the 'Riv' Phil Wood hubs
> that work with a freewheel.   I have no experience in this area as my
> only bike has a cassette.

phil hubs are great. and so are white industries' and chris king's.
but so are shimano's. if you work on your own stuff, it might simply
be a question of whether you prefer sealed bearings or repacking the
hub. both are pretty easy to work on. phil's are blingy, so there
are points for that if it matters to you. is it a big "upgrade" from,
let's say shimano ultegra to phil? i say no. the money saved can go
elsewhere on the bike.

regarding, freewheels - you should consider what kind of drivetrain
you want to use. If you're in love with 6 or 7 speed friction
shifting and sourcing your favorite freewheels, then by all means, go
with the phil. if not, then stick with modern hubs and cassettes.

have fun. sounds like it will be a great bike!

[SISDDWG]

You're on target about upgrading wheels. I have two bikes with Phil
Wood freewheel hubs. Other than a polish now and then I haven't
touched them in twelve years! Freewheel hubs are less expensive than
the cassette hubs and there still seems to be a good availability of
freewheels. Unless the Phils will break you I would bite the bullet
and get them. You'll never have to even think about hubs again.

[rperks]

I love mine, five or 6 speeds in the rear is all I seem to need. I
think with the Foy you can get a dishless 7 speed wheel build that
will be very strong and last a very long time as others have stated.
If you are heavy or plan to load the rear the benifits of added
strength and even spoke length are enough to sway the decision for
me. Yes there are other makers of nice hubs, but the Phil freewheels
hit a sweet spot for me.

Plus they look really cool

Rob

On Jul 16, 2:02 pm, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:

[jamison brosseau]

i would get a non budget shimano wheelset. those hubs last a long
time, and with the money you save, you can afford to outfit your bike
with all the racks and bags you will need.
jamison

[muckum]

Yes, they are worth it - if you like stuff that will out live you that
you can pass on to a special person.
IRD makes great freewheels and parts.

On Jul 16, 2:02 pm, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:

[andy]

Yes, They are worth it. I have ridden thousands of problem free miles
on phil hubs, I got my first set in the mid 1970s and they are still
running.

[Ginz]

If you are fine with 7 speed and, especially if you are using the
Silver bar end shifters, the Phils are fantastic. 7 speed index
shifters and 8 speed freewheels are almost non existent. So, that's
why I raise that issue.

7speed freewheels are still very available and relatively cheap. If
you are worried, just stockpile a few. I bought a used set from the
90s and they are butter smooth. I would not hesitate to buy a new set
today. You could save some money and get the regular version, rather
than the Rivy version.

If there were a *similarly priced*, classy cassette hub with cartridge
bearings, sure that'd be great. Until that option exists, the Phils
will remain popular.

[Patrick in VT]

On Jul 17, 3:40 pm, andy <arula...@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> Yes, They are worth it.  I have ridden thousands of problem free miles
> on phil hubs

i'm sure there are folks on this list that have ridden ten of
thousands of miles on loose ball bearing/cup and cone hubs too. they
require a little more maintenance - but maintenance is part of the
gig.

anyway, it's not like the OP is going to be riding down the road
thinking "oh crap, I should have 'upgraded' to a phil hub" because
they ride better than a shimano hub that's less than half the price.

there's certainly value in low maintenance, durability - no doubt.
but are they better hubs? i think that depends on the rider. if you
value the lowest maintenance hub possible - by all means, pay more and
go with the phil. if you're okay with repacking a hub every now and
then, or taking your bike to get serviced, then shimano 105/Ultegra/XT
are more than fine - nothing "cheap" about those hubs.

FWIW, I have PW hubs/bottom brackets/track cogs/etc., so not anti-Phil
or anything ... PW is great stuff! also has the small business/made
in the U.S. thing going for it, which has value to me and is another
thing to consider.

[Bruce]

I have Phil hubs (FW) on the Ram and White Ind hubs on the Saluki. Both have been excellent, and cost the same or less than some racer type hubs you'll see. The Phils are heavier. FWs are readily available. Try Loosescrews.com for old stuff like 7 speed shifters or FWs, or Ebay. Tons of stuff there. Even Nashbar sells 6 & 7 speed FWs for $17.99l that actually work pretty well. That's what I currently have on the Ram (13 - 32).

---

From: Patrick in VT <swin...@gmail.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 3:40:48 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Newbie here: Are Phil Wood hubs worth it.

[Ginz]

i think that there is one additional consideration:

If you ever want indexed shifting, better get a cassette hub. That is
not to say you SHOULD ever want index shifting on that bike or that
you will ever NEED it. You won't find an 8 speed freewheel, nor will
you find 7 speed indexed bar end shifters, at least not easily.

If you are fine with friction, I say go for the Phils and get a 7
speed freewheel.

Ginz

[Tim McNamara]

On Jul 16, 2010, at 4:02 PM, Powderpiggy wrote:

> Are the Phil Wood hubs really worth the money?

I have one bike (tandem) with a 1984 Phil rear hub. It has never
needed servicing. I have another bike (Rivendell) with 14 year old
Phil hubs; they too have never needed servicing. Ditto the Phil rear
hub on my wife's bike which is about 12 years old. If decades of
hassle-free service are your thing, Phil hubs are a great thing.

[Patrick in VT]

On Jul 17, 4:49 pm, Bruce <fullylug...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I have Phil hubs (FW) on the Ram and White Ind hubs on the Saluki.

how long have you had your WIs? I blew through the bearings on an H2
hub in a year - lots of wet miles though. replaced original bearings
with Phils.

[Powderpiggy]

Thanks for all the replies. The PW 'Rivy' hubs probably would not
break the bank while the PW cassette hubs would. But I was a little
unsure about the freewheel but it sounds like maybe that should not be
so much of a concern.

Anything else you would recommend upgrading??

[Powderpiggy]

It true...I do need racks and bags....fenders...etc.

On Jul 17, 9:06 am, jamison brosseau <jamison.bross...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[hobie]

I have always considered Phil Hubs but never took the plunge.My first
Riv was a Saluki w. 650b budget wheelset.I have since took the plunge
on Phil wheels and B.B..One wheelset is a cassette for my touring
Saluki,pricey though.The other is a Phil rear freewheel not to
pricey.They are both excellent. I would go for the freewheel,it
doesn't cost a fortune and your getting Phil quality that just rools
and rolls and rolls.If your concerned w. the avalability of freewheels
in the future buy 2 IRD's.Store one for the future.If you get the Phil
you have piece of mind that you have the best.If you get the budget
set you'll always be thinking how you should have gotten the Phil.They
will last you a lifetime.

[EricP]

My Sam Hillborne has a Phil f/w rear hub. It's very nice. Very
little dish and strong. Since building the wheel earlier this year,
have yet to touch it with a spoke wrench.

Another bike has Shimano XT hubs and I repacked the rear hub bearings
after about 1,000 miles.

That said - the repack was easy with the right tools and, again with
the right tools, is quite easy to take a cassette off. Not
necessarily the case with a freewheel.

Purchased the Phil hub because I really wanted a Phil hub. Had lusted
after them since the early 1980's. Finally decided to take the
plunge. Plus my LBS gave me a price I could not refuse. (Thanks
again to Jim at Hiawatha for that and for teaching me how to build a
wheel.)

If you really want a Phil, go for it.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

> > What would you upgrade and why?- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[cyclotourist]

Re-packing hubs is one of my favorite bike maintenance things to do.  Just a good feeling of satisfaction after completing it.

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[Ginz]

Tell us more about your build. We'll gladly spend your money.

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

I love index shifting for the rear wheel and expect it to perform
flawlessly. The 8-speed bar-end shifters RBW sells work every bit as
well with my 7-speed freewheel as my other bike's matched 8-speed
drivetrain. They both perform virtually flawlessly.

I have no experience riding a 6-speed drivetrain. But I would *not*
expect the same satisfactory indexing with 8-speed shifters. 7-speed
cog spacing is 4.9mm cog-to-cog for the IRD freewheels. 6-speed
spacing is 5.3mm. These figures per IRD. From Sheldon, Shimano 8-speed
cassette is 4.8mm.

That said, I think the Phil hubs are "worth it" only if you have
special wheel needs (e.g. heavy upright riding) or really want the
beauty (I think my half-Rivy 40-spoke Phil freewheel wheel is
stunning!).

But normal situations don't make Phil's a good value, I think. Just an
exceptional product.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[All Rounder 2000]

I have bikes with PW (Freewheel), SunTour (FW), and Shimano hubs
(Cassette).
I agree with all I've seen here.
For me, the most practical difference has been the "service after the
sale."
On two occasions I've had slight "problems" with PW gear and a quick
phone call to PW HQ and the bearings or other parts are on their way,
one time for free.
Specifically, the issues were:
*Car camped throughout southern Utah Red Rock, with my bike on the
back of the car. "Grit" got into the BB bearings and killed it. PW
replaced the BB. (for free!)
*Needed to repurpose a hub for use on a 135 rear spacing 7 speed, to a
132.5 5 speed. On the phone, PW told me what I needed, and sent for a
very small fee.

UPGRADE IDEA for you:
For touring, and general night riding, I can highly recommend the
"Schmidt Dynohub" for the front wheel. I've ridden this hub at least
50 miles per week for the last 10 years, and it is "like new."

[Philip Williamson]

+1 on a Schmidt as the preferred hub upgrade.

philip
97128

On Jul 17, 10:02 pm, All Rounder 2000 <s_schermerh...@yahoo.com>
wrote:

[Powderpiggy]

So for those of you who are using IRD freewheels with your PW hubs,
what are your thoughts on the QC issues that IRD has had. The folks
at Rivendell seem to think the problems are over but reading various
online forums, I am not so sure.

Keely

On Jul 18, 10:26 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Angus]

I think they are worth it. Phils are a bit pricey (esp the cassette
hub) but are very well done.

On my road bikes I'm also in the "haven't touched the Phil hubs (or
BB) in over 10 years" camp.

I raced a Rivendell Cyclocross bike for four years, I replaced one non-
driveside rear bearing towards the end of that time frame. Those
wheels have an additional seven years of service on a
Rambouillet...with no additional maintenance. I think that is pretty
good!

Same story on a MTB, rear Phil hub, one non-drive side bearing in over
10 years. The Shimano hubs I was using prior would last 1-3 years,
drive side seals were not good, broke internal parts etc...

Angus

[Ginz]

Here's a few upgrade ideas:

Pedals - on a long ride, a nice, smooth pair of pedals with
comfortable clips and straps (if you use them) are a true luxury.
Check out the Grip Kings, White Industries Urban Pedals, Soma double-
toe straps and/or the VO leather-clap toe clips. Rectangular cage
pedals are ok, but can dig into your sole (and maybe your soul) after
a while.

Brake Levers - If you are using drop bars, go for the Shimano Tiagras.
They are worth it. If using Albatross bars (do choose the Albatross
over the Dove), there aren't may upgrade options but the Paul levers
for Cantis are nice.

Shifters - definitely use the Silvers. If you must index, the Shimano
Ultegras. If you must index, then you'll really want to get a
Cassette hub as you will need an 8 speed cassette. So, this is a key
descision relative to your choice of hubs.

Bottom Bracket - you could go for a Phil but I'd suggest putting the
money towards other things first. The $40 BB will last plenty long.

Headset - There aren't too many nice looking, silver upgrades
available in 1". Chris King is a bit garish for a Betty Foy. Cane
Creek is a little more subdued but still has logos. Campy Record
might be a good choice but worth $100? Hmm... that will start another
long discussion.

Brake pads - Request salmon brake pads. They are a luxury and are
worth the few extra bucks.

Racks - The Nitto Mark's rack is so nice on a Betty Foy. The Nitto
full racks are beautiful though pricey.

> > > 50 miles per week for the last 10 years, and it is "like new."- Hide quoted text -

[Andreas]

If you are putting ten thousands of miles on the hub they may be worth
it.
In case you cycling where a hub problem would be catastrophic it would
be worth it.
If you mind repacking a shimano hub every year (or 10,000 miles) they
are worth it.

Shimano hubs are great. And for your intended purpose they are fine.
Save money, go with an ultegra hub.

PS: I ride PW, Shimano, Schmidt and DT hubs and have used each for
many thousands of miles.

[Garth]

Powderpiggy, I use FW's exclusively with 2 sets of Phil Touring
Hubs. I use mostly Sachs at present, but still have some Suntour
FW's. Because of the very inconsistent quality of the IRD's , I've
stayed away from them. I don't like IRD's cog selection on the 13-32
either, the 15-18 jump is too big, especially in the big ring. A
15-17-20-24 progression is perfect.

IRD had supposedly fixed their problems, but even some of their
latest ones are prone to failure, from what I've read in probably the
same forums. For the premium price IRD retails for, this is just not
acceptable. I've been able to amass a large selection of Sachs and
Suntour bodies and cogs, but most people can't do that, it takes a
long time. For new users, the only other choices are Shimano and
Sunrace and other assorted Asian brands, but the cog selection is even
more limited.

IRD has some more FW's due this summer, I don't know if these will
called Mark V, or what..... but I sure hope they fix their issues. It
does no one any good to have FW failures. Weather this is a mass or
isolated problem, the public perception of many is that IRD FW's are
overpriced and unreliable.

The Velo Orange guy has even been pondering making FW's as they have
some new FW hubs being made for them. That would be a welcomed
addition to the FW supply. . . .granted they're made well.

[JoelMatthews]

> Chris King is a bit garish for a Betty Foy.

Sotto Voce CK headsets do not have that visible a logo. Same with the
Ti if you can afford it.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[msrw]

I used PW hubs and bottom brackets for years on a tandem, and on one
of my racing bikes.

Since everyone has covered the advantages, I'll mention one possible
negative:

PW hubs aren't all that sophisticated in terms of the bearing seals,
so if you use the hubs in extreme conditions, they may not yield the
level of reliability that they have for most users.

That said, the only reports that have ever emerged (to my knowledge)
on hub failures have come from the randonneuring community, who may
tend to ride longer and in worse conditions that all but the most
extreme cyclists in other categories.

[trevor segraves]

As for, non garish headsets, Ive got Hatta Swan headsets on 2 of my bikes the only marking if I recall correctly is a tiny NJS symbol, a little spendy, in the same price range as Chris King, yet beautiful, and as of yet, 2 years on my Maldoror, problem free. We'll see if it holds up as well as my 15 year old CK head set.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7649556@N02/4645660599/in/set-72157622117479721/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/7649556@N02/3887850202/in/set-72157622117479721/

Cheers

From: JoelMatthews <joelma...@mac.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Mon, July 19, 2010 9:48:51 AM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Newbie here: Are Phil Wood hubs worth it.

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[Angus]

I recently picked up a few "Shimano" free-wheels from my LBS (for my
Rivendells) at amazingly low prices. We'll see how they do.

I've not had any problems with IRD free wheels, the Sun-Race free
wheels I used a while back wore gear teeth quite quickly.

Angus

[BykMor]

I don't know. I'll tell you in 20,000 miles when mine wears out ;-)

BykMor

On Jul 18, 11:26 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Just a dissenting voice here... you *can* use 8-speed ultegra indexing
shifters with a 7-speed IRD freewheel with perfectly satisfactory
results.

I'm sure the silver shifters are great; I have some I intend to set up
to see what they're like.

But the choice of friction versus ultegra 8-speed indexing is truly
independent of whether you choose a cassette hub or a Phil freewheel
hub for a IRD 7-speed freewheel. You can use either shifters with
either a Shimano-compatible 8-speed cassette or a Phil freewheel 7-
speed IRD freewheel setup.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

On Jul 19, 9:04 am, Ginz <theg...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Here's a few upgrade ideas:
>

[Doug Van Cleve]

Howdy.

It is probably a bit anti-RBW, but I would say if you have any concerns about freewheels then skip the freewheel Phils.  If you plan on indexing, or think you might ever want it, skip the freewheel Phils.  PW seems like a great company, but among reputable brands any rear hub given reasonable care will be pretty much trouble free IMHO.

Doug

P.S.  To me, the whole dishless rear wheel thing seems like a great idea that doesn't matter much in real life.  I am well over 200lbs., don't use particularly stout/overbuilt rear wheels and have never had an issue that I would attribute to dish.  Quality components and quality construction seem to make it pretty much a non-issue...

On Sat, Jul 17, 2010 at 8:44 AM, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:

Thanks for all the replies.    The PW 'Rivy' hubs probably would not
break the bank while the PW cassette hubs would.  But I was a little
unsure about the freewheel but it sounds like maybe that should not be
so much of a concern.

Anything else you would recommend upgrading??

On Jul 17, 8:30 am, rperks <perks....@gmail.com> wrote:
> I love mine, five or 6 speeds in the rear is all I seem to need.  I
> think with the Foy you can get a dishless 7 speed wheel build that
> will be very strong and last a very long time as others have stated.

> If you are heavy or plan to load the rear the benefits of added

> strength and even spoke length are enough to sway the decision for
> me.  Yes there are other makers of nice hubs, but the Phil freewheels
> hit a sweet spot for me.
>
> Plus they look really cool
>
> Rob
>
> On Jul 16, 2:02 pm, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:
>
>
>

> > I plan to purchase a Betty Foy....I have been ogling the Betty Foy's

> > online since as long as they have been around, and the Glorius before
> > her.   This would be my first Riv (and probably only as I don't have
> > huge expendable income).  This is a major purchase form me so I am
> > thinking it would be worth it to make sure I don't just go cheap, but
> > get it built up to something that I will love for years and years and
> > not wish I had spent a little more to get an upgrated X or Y.
>
> > I plan to use the Betty Foy for short tours (7-10 days likely the
> > longest), bike commuting, tootling around town, and perhaps centuries
> > or longer (I have a very lightweight road bike that has served this
> > purpose but is not suited for touring, commuting, tootling, etc).
>
> > Soooo....my thought is that the wheelset would be the most important
> > thing to upgrade (beyond the 'budget' wheelset.  Are the Phil Wood
> > hubs really worth the money?  What would you do?  I am hugely

> > intimidated by the cost but am intrigued with the 'Riv' Phil Wood hubs

[Ginz]

Can the the current ultregras be switched to 7sp or will there be an
extra "click?"

On Jul 19, 5:57 pm, Thomas Lynn Skean <thomaslynnsk...@comcast.net>
wrote:

[rperks]

you never get to the extra click if the limit screws are properly
set. The IRD freewheel cogs have moders 9/8 speed spacing and will
work with many modern shimano indexing systems. When the limit screws
are set, you will only get the required throw out of the shift lever.
Likewise, the silver shifters work fine on my 9spd cassete, yet I do
not live in fear of them sending my 5 spd setup into the spokes - Rob

> > > descision relative to your choice of hubs.- Hide quoted text -

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

On my setup with an XT low-normal (Rapid Rise) derailer with an IRD 7-
spd freewheel on a PW hub, I use the appropriate limit screw to
prevent the derailer from being moved past the outer cog.
Theoretically, I guess, one could get the extra click by straining
hard on the shifter and either stretching the cable or mangling the
derailer mechanical. But in practice, the derailer and cable maintain
their structure even with "vigorous use" and one doesn't get the extra
click. I guess with a top-normal (traditional) derailer the limit
screw controlling the inward movement would be involved.

I can't speak to this working well on non-IRD 7-speed freewheel hubs.
And I would expect 6-speed IRD freewheel hubs (5.3mm spacing) to work
poorly.

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Ginz]

Is the original poster confused?? Sorry, the discussion around index
shifting got rather technical. Please let us know if there are any
unanswered questions!

[Thomas Lynn Skean]

Hear hear! Yes, my apologies!

As much as I love my Phil wheel, I'd've stayed with XT hubs if I
hadn't had so many wheel issues previously OR if I'd wanted
particularly to stick with cassettes. And I believe I wouldn't have
had prior wheel problems if I weighed 225 instead of 250.

I'd save the money or spend it on a rack and/or a nice bag. Or maybe a
*really* good lock; those Betty Foys are sharp! :)

Yours,
Thomas Lynn Skean

[Ego Martini]

White industries M15 hubs are pretty much bomb proof - they look perdy
- lighter than the Phil's and cost quite a bit less coin. I am not
saying they are better then a Phil hub but I've got one on the back of
my Bleriot and I am nothing but happy with it
.http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html

On Jul 16, 5:02 pm, Powderpiggy <ke...@mid-columbia-coho.net> wrote:
> I plan to purchase a Betty Foy....I have been oggling the Betty Foy's

> online since as long as they have been around, and the Glorius before
> her.   This would be my first Riv (and probably only as I don't have
> huge expendable income).  This is a major purchase form me so I am
> thinking it would be worth it to make sure I don't just go cheap, but
> get it built up to something that I will love for years and years and
> not wish I had spent a little more to get an upgrated X or Y.
>
> I plan to use the Betty Foy for short tours (7-10 days likely the
> longest), bike commuting, tootling around town, and perhaps centuries
> or longer (I have a very lightweight road bike that has served this
> purpose but is not suited for touring, commuting, tootling, etc).
>
> Soooo....my thought is that the wheelset would be the most important
> thing to upgrade (beyond the 'budget' wheelset.  Are the Phil Wood
> hubs really worth the money?  What would you do?  I am hugely

> intimdated by the cost but am intreged with the 'Riv' Phil Wood hubs

[Bruce]

I have these on a Saluki front and rear and am very pleased with them.

---

From: Ego Martini <egoma...@gmail.com>

To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

Sent: Tue, July 20, 2010 4:35:19 PM

Subject: [RBW] Re: Newbie here: Are Phil Wood hubs worth it.