Which bikes should Rivendell keep selling?

[Tim]

In Grants email that went out yesterday he said that they're going to be discontinuing some models because there's not room to stock them all. Soooooo.....this should be a fun exercise (and for many of us a little gut wrenching). Let's decide which bikes to keep and which to wave a fond farewell to, remembering, of course, that I'm sure you could always get any of the models as a custom. Grant didn't say how many they'd be keeping so on your response you can either: 1. Say how many different types of bikes to stock, and which ones, or 2. Rank them in order, with #1 being the bike they absolutely must stock. Here's my list:

Atlantis
A. Homer Hilsen
Roadeo
Joe Appaloosa
Clem Smith Jr.
Clementine/Clem Smith Jr. L-Type

My (probably flawed) reasoning:
Atlantis must always be there. It's the quintessential Riv. Hilsen is an awesome "country bike". Roadeo fills the "go fast" category. Clem is the one for rough stuff and Clementine takes care of the mixte/step-through, at a very good price. And the Joe Appaloosa is, for lack of a better description, the "poor man's Atlantis.

Full disclosure: I currently have a Hilsen, Roadeo, Hunqapillar, and my girlfriend has a Sam, with a tandem in the oven.

[Will]

I think Hillborne needs to on the list, particularly if they go back to canti-posts for it. It is a beautiful, smart, bike. Clem can take a vacation. I had very high hopes for Appaloosa but the 55cm chainstays dampened that enthusiasm. So I'd give that a rest as well. If any bike in the line-up needs an update, it's Roadeo. Tires options are much better these days. It would be nice if Roadeo was configured to take more rubber.  

[dstein]

I am a proud Hunqapillar owner and would say that one should stay since it is the best off road option. Though assuming the hunqapillar, rodeo, atlantis, and AHH are all made to order and don't take up stock, couldn't we leave those off the wish list as it's not much extra effort for Rivendell to keep offering them? If so then it seems it boils down to:

Sam Hillborne

Appaloosa

Clem Smith Jr/Clementine

Cheviot

I think it's kinda between the SH and Appaloosa and Clem/Clementime vs. the Cheviot. In which case I think the Cheviot and Appaloosa could cede to the SH and Clem/Clementine. Though if a road-y version of a Clem is coming that would add a little complexity.

[Bill M.]

Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast, comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.  

I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take a stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something that might as well be a Roadeo.

As for what Riv should keep, IMO the core is:

Roadeo

Atlantis

Homer

Sam

Anything else could rotate in and out of the batting order.  Can one bike sit in the middle of the Hunq/Joe/Clem/Cheviot space as an affordable rough stuff / commuter / shopper / budget tourer / lowered top tube bike?

Bill

Stockton, CA

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 7:33:58 PM UTC-7, Will wrote:

[Surlyprof]

I've got a canti-Hillborne and would tend to agree with Will.  It is the most comfortable bike I've ever owned and the shorter wheelbase makes it great all-arounder on the road-ish side.  I thought I'd want to trade it in for an Appaloosa.  However, the more I considered it, the more I thought the Hillborne does what I do, about 60% road and 40% trail.  I view the Hilson the same way, as an all-arounder on the road-ish side.  I see the Atlantis, Hunq and Appaloosa as being more all-arounder on the trail side.  With the Hillborne, I can put on a sturdier wheelset with knobbies for trail but when I put on the lighter wheelset for road, I get a fun, lively ride.  Now, if they could eek out a little more tire clearance (like the Appaloosa), that would be a huge winner in my book.  Clems probably need to stay as "a gateway Riv".  Plus, they're really fun.

John (who desperately wants a 650b Hunq)

[Chris Lampe 2]

If they keep all of the current offerings on a "built to order basis", I can see them only stocking the Sam, Clem/Clementine, Appaloosa & Cheviot.  That gives them budget versions of a road bike, an all-purpose bike, a touring bike and a mixte.  That's assuming a Sam has light enough tubing and the Appaloosa has heavy enough tubing.  

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 8:48:47 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:

[Chris Lampe 2]

I obviously didn't read the responses before replying since I basically posted the same thing as dstein.  Great minds think alike!   ;)  

[Tony DeFilippo]

Tim, I like your list and was expecting a topic like this to pop up soon after the note from Grant do thanks! :)

My list (tonight - might be different tomorrow);

1. Atlantis or Hunq
2. AHH
3. Appaloosa
4. Cheviot
5. Clem/time

Things I'd be thinking about in needing down;

Price slots
Historic sales volume
Frame building sources capacity

Atlantis is a sentimental pick and I agree with Tim it's the quintessential Riv, at the same time its very all rounder-ness makes it tough to go head to head with other bikes that are set up according to their niche (ie. not as sporty as a Homer, not as robust as a Hunq, not as quirky as the Chev, not as 'cheap' as the Clem... ). I could see the Atlantis going special order and the popular Hunq remaining as the production tough Riv.

Homer is the flagship and can be dressed up pretty road oriented if desired.

Appaloosa vs the Sam is a pick em for me, I've seen the new Appaloosa at Gravel and Grind and demo'd a Sam years ago. App gets my nod because it aligns to the new long chainstay philosophy and has the similar price point for completes. Also maybe it's a misconception but the Sam seems closer to the Homer so the App allows greater division of models in my mind.

Cheviot because it seems like Grant takes every opportunity to rave about it... And they seem to sell out.

Clem/tine because of their price point/value to customer is so good, it's the 'gateway drug' or the justifiable second Riv/kids/spouses Riv.

I don't see why the rest of the Waterford built models couldn't be available on an build to order status, keep the sizing/geo stock and the prices should be pretty close to current listing. My list does limit the stock MUSA offerings to 2 of 5 which seems skewed but I think makes business sense.

My two cents, fun exercise. Like the 'one bike' discussion for an individual writ large.

Tony

[drew]

I think hunq, cheviot and roadeo would cover almost all bases. Or just an Atlantis or sam are versatile enough to do most of what we all want and need.

But Yeah it seems like it's more of a budgetary question rather than an overlap one. Right now there is almost an expensive and cheap version of each bike.
Atlantis-Joe
Hunq-Clem
Homer-Sam
Cheviot-Clem L
Roadeo- upcoming road Clem.

it's a lot of models and I get how it's grown to this point, but In my head it makes sense to gradually move everything to the sam model. Nice looking, very well made, yet more reasonably priced bikes. One super refined model for each purpose. Lugs, nice paint, same names and geometry, but with silver stuff and made at maxway.

Likely, a Taiwan made Atlantis will never happen, and i will be sad if it does. The current lineup almost seems like it is competing with itself, though.

[Lungimsam]

I know nothing about bike making and merchandizing. That said, I'd vote for:

Three road bikes at all three weightpoints:
1.700c/650b Roadeo
2. Atlantis (replaces Hunq)
3. Hilsen (replaces Sam)

Mixte:
4. Glorious (if youre gonna do a mixte, might as well do it up)

5. Customs? RBW would know if it is worth it or not to continue with customs.

[dougP]

There will no doubt be many lively discussions in Walnut Creek but someone will compile some sales & profit figures. That info may sober up the conversation and determine choices. Hoping Atlantis is a keeper.

Doug p

[Bob K.]

The Atlantis is their flagship bike. It says as much on the website. It's also beautiful and as others have said, I wouldn't expect it's too big of a stock issue to make made-to-order bikes.

Here's my list:

1. Atlantis
2. Homer
3. Roadeo
4. Sam
5. Joe
6. Clem/entine

But who knows? It could be argued that all the bikes have their niches and that it'd be sensible to get rid of the all-arounder types like the Sam and Joe. Regardless, they'll keep churning out well-made, beautiful, functional bikes. Looking forward to seeing the plan.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Philip Kim]

For me:

Atlantis
Hunqapillar
Some combination of the Sam Hillborne and AHH, maybe like a Hunq where you get the fork made in Taiwan etc. There's just a lot of overlap between these two
Cheviot, but put v brakes on it
Clem Smith Jr for lower pricepoint

[Jock Dewey]

Y'all: As another just mentioned and good point, too: if it's not a 'stocking' bike, why not leave that part of the menu as is? 

Roadeo, Atlantis, customs, Hillborne (altho this one is stocking, right?), etc. can all stay, yes? It's always a bit sad when a favorite disappears, so keep as many as possible. Me? After 12 years, I'm having my RAM repainted (paint nearly perfect, but some corrosion on the lug shoulders, etc.), it is such a very nice frame. As said, sad to see it go (altho Roadeo is most suitable replacement).

Jock Dewey / Athens, GA

[Tim]

My thought, when thinking of some of these models being made to order, was that they then become "custom", which I thought would mean that they would be priced as a custom. I think I remember recently that someone had a Glorius made by Mark Nobilette. So my thought was that although you could still get the discontinued models, you'd have to love them enough to pay an extra $1200 or so for them. If they were discontinued they would no longer be available from Waterford or Taiwan because those frames are the price they are because they are ordered in bulk. I probably should have clarified that in my OP. But then again, all of this is wild speculation on my part, which is probably what I am best at.....

[David Stein]

Tim - I thought about that too. What makes a bike a 'made to order' vs a custom? The 'made to order' models aren't ordered in bulk. I ordered my hunq and had to wait in line for it to be made per my order, and was shipped as a single bike from waterford to rivendell. But maybe in order to get that price (which is lower than a custom) they have to commit to doing so many a year? If so that would be a more involved decision on whether to include or not include the 'made to order' models in their catalog.

On Thu, Sep 15, 2016 at 8:08 AM, 'Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:

My thought, when thinking of some of these models being made to order, was that they then become "custom", which I thought would mean that they would be priced as a custom. I think I remember recently that someone had a Glorius made by Mark Nobilette. So my thought was that although you could still get the discontinued models, you'd have to love them enough to pay an extra $1200 or so for them. If they were discontinued they would no longer be available from Waterford or Taiwan because those frames are the price they are because they are ordered in bulk. I probably should have clarified that in my OP. But then again, all of this is wild speculation on my part, which is probably what I am best at.....

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[Will]

I dunno... Jan Heine is testing go-fasts all the time. They take 40-50mm tires. I think many of us would agree that the narrow tire era is drawing to a close. The rational for "narrowness" has been discredited.
Roadeo could be configured to take more rubber without turning it into a Hilson. If not, I think it becomes a sales orphan. IIRC Grant said sales were something like 45 bikes per year.

This is the hole in the Riv lineup. There are lots-o-mules and semi-mules: Atlantis, Hunq, Clem, Chev, Appaloosa... not many sporties... Riv needs an updated lively go-fast.

[sprocket67]

My suggestion is to add more space tot he showroom/shop. All of the Riv bikes are unique in their own way and certainly unlike anything being mass produced. 

Doug

On Wednesday, September 14, 2016 at 9:48:47 PM UTC-4, Tim wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Aren't these the perennial best sellers: Atlantis and Hillborne? They need a road bike; so Roadeo. Then a "cruiser" -- isn't the Clem the most popular?

Atlantis, Hillborne, Roadeo, Clem: that seems like a pretty good cross section of the market.

If they must have 650B, then perhaps offer 650B versions of Atlantis and Roadeo? Or Atlantis and Hillborne? Or add a -- well, 650B model; I'm not up to par on the 650B ones.

And wasn't the Hunq a best seller?

Thus, in order of what seems best by demand:

Atlantis

Hillborne

Clem

Roadeo

650B bike

Hunq-type

Single Speed

That's down from current 10, not including customs.

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[Patrick Moore]

I agree with Bill. Heck, on firm dirt and gravel with good tires, 28 mm does wonderfully well, as I can attest with my Compass Elk Passes, which are meant to be 32 mm wide but in fact measure, on my narrower and wider rims, respectively 27 and 29. 32 mm would be practically fat bike velvet. In fact, I'd say that Riv should make the Roadeo even more roadie-like by lightening the tubing.

Can the Hill take 45s and fenders, or 50s without? If not, make it so! Make the smaller models with 650B wheels.

[sameness]

Atlantis, AHH and Cheviot.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Patrick Moore]

And Rivendell should start stocking Compass tires, or at least, similar light supple ones to be set up tubeless. That alone should make it easier to ride narrower tires off road because of the cushioning and the flat resistance. No need for heavy belts.

[Patrick Moore]

Sorry, the Hillborne does not fill the "road bike" niche; it's a country bike indeed, and may do well on the road for some riders, but if Rivendell has a road bike demand, they must keep or replace the Roadeo.

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[Scott McLain]

I thought it would be interesting if someone could set up a google survey on this to see how the numbers came back.  Like others have said, recognizing that there are a lot of variables that I don't know about and probably wouldn't understand, I will share my uneducated opinion.

Go build to order on the Waterford frames, but keep them all available.  Don't need to stock demo's at Riv HQ.  Even if this mean a small price increase.  This is a boundary condition for me.  I bought an AHH because I wanted a MUSA bike.  I am an engineer in the manufacturing industry.

From there, and this is where it gets hard.

Keep the Sam, the quintessential Riv. and the Taiwan lower cost of entry country bike.

Keep the Cheviot, it is leading a step through renaissance.  With more roadies hitting 60, this bike will continue to sell.

Keep both the Clem models, maybe tweak the design a bit to fill the loss of the...

Drop Appy. I love the Apppaloosa, but... I mean I really love this bike, but if it is being marketed primarily as a loaded tourer, there is a lot of competition in that space and plenty of options.  If I really have to have a Riv for touring, I'm going to pony up the $$$ for the Atlantis.

Add Roadini, I think Riv is going to kill it on this bike.  The bike world is going bananas with comfortable geometry and endurance wiz bang.  When a person swings a leg over a beautiful steel road bike that has high handle bars, wow.  It is a better ride than anything else.

Scott

[Patrick Moore]

What is this "Roadini"? Is it a Roadeo replacement? I've heard the name but no description.

Whatever it is, Grant, please don't overbuild it.

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[Bill Lindsay]

I have several thoughts on this.  When Rivendell Bicycle Works faces questions like this, it is 95% a financial question, and most importantly a cashflow question.  RBW does roughly $2M in sales annually, and I will guess has roughly $400,000 to $600,000 of inventory on their shelves on a given day.  That money that is tied up on the shelves shackles them.  It makes it hard to pay rent, pay salaries, and buy more stuff for the shelves.  They consistently have cashflow challenges, several times a year.  The hard questions they have to ask themselves is whether there is a way to reduce the amount of cash tied up on the shelves without radically reducing sales volume.  

All the made-to-order bikes have essentially ZERO impact on this.  The only tiny pain-point when you order a Hilsen is that they only make you pay half up front.  If you want to be helpful to RBW's cash flow situation, make a much bigger deposit on your made-to-order frame.  Count on all the made to order frames remaining available, because they have very little impact on Riv's cash-flow.  Scott got this 100% correct.  

Bikes that Riv has to order 100-at-a-time are SUPER painful to them from a cashflow perspective, so Clems, Appaloosas, Cheviuts, and Sams are all painful, and something has to give there.  Even now they miss sales because they don't have any medium size Appaloosas or Cheviuts and even the next order of Cheviuts are almost sold out in 55.  

It is fun to speculate/debate what would hurt the least to cut.  In my mind the biggest cash sink is complete Appaloosas and complete Sams.  A hundred complete Appaloosas on the shelf is a quarter million dollars in retail value.  A hundred Appaloosa framesets is half that, and you can build them up as they sell, ordering parts as you need them.  We, the customers might end up paying $3000 instead of $2600 for the same bike, but that would help the cash flow situation.

The real solution (in my mind) is a Riv FSA program (FSA=Flexible Spending Account).  If 250 debt-free Riv customers each bought a $2000 store credit from Rivendell today, that would be a half-million in cash that Riv could use to ride through the ups and downs.  If you know for a fact you are eventually going to spend money at RBW and you have money today, why not just buy a store credit from them today?  That's the way we can have a say in what they keep on the shelves.  Maybe Riv gives a TINY discount, like they sell you a $2100 store credit for $2000.  If a ton of us who want to see them continue to succeed invested in that way, they would be WAY better off.  They are not set up to manage tiny FSA's, so I don't think 2500 of us each doing $200 would be as helpful.  The ideal situation would be ten people each endowing Riv with $50k, and call them silent partners, but that's not likely to happen.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Lungimsam]

Some forums have a poll function, that would be fun for this forum.

[masmojo]

Not really sure what can be done, other then giving some models a rest.
To me there's a whole lot of crossover between the Joe App., Atlantis, Hunq., Homer & Sam. But, they are all distinctive in some way. Grant will NEVER throw out the Homer or Atlantis & there's little point in eliminating the bikes that are made to order anywayz. About the only place things get muddy for me is when it comes to the Sam & the Joe App.! The Sam has come with Cantis. in the past; that, the longer stays and the new fork crown are all that really separate the two in my mind. I think if the Sam came with Cantilevers I would drop the Joe App. Or keep the Joe App. & drop the Sam (which I think is what will happen)
People will scream, but the Sam could come back later.

[Tim]

Bill, that's a GREAT idea. I would absolutely be willing to open a $2000 (or more) FSA. I know I'll end up spending the money anyway and I would love to help take the pressure off of Grant, who has contributed so much to others and influenced me and my riding (as well as, to some extent, my worldview).

[Ryan Fleming]

The FSA is not a bad idea at all

And for the made-to-order Waterford-built bikes and customs...I feel a larger down payment would help, as well , if you have the means to do so

As for what to keep..the Atlantis, the Sam, the Roadeo and either the Clems as the gateway drug or the Cheviot  in keeping with the somewhat ageing demographic...I'm torn between the Chev and the Clems. The Clems are certainly more affordable...but I do love the lugs and aesthetically I'd say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye

[Kai Vierstra]

"aesthetically I'd say the Clems are the least pleasing to my eye"

-obviously you've never seen the 65's, straight seatstays make all the difference.
My list-
1. Quickbeam*
2. Clem
3. Roadini**

-Kai Vierstra
Brooklyn NY

*I know, already disqualified

**presumption

[Garth]

FWIW, from what I understand the difference between a made to order and full custom is the specific builder. Wford is built by hand but in accordance to whatever their method of choosing who builds what is. They sell customs themselves for much more $ themselves so I would think these would be built by their best builders and devote the most time to in detail and finishig. The made for Riv models would get that attentions, so while made by a custom builder the level of detail and finish wouldn't be there. I have seen first hand and have heard enough not to be overly impressed with their quality of such frames.

As for what to keep, voting here while fun and all hopefully has no influence on GP's decisions. Making decisions to makes cuts, to deny oneself the inherent sense of freedom we all are, has no good outcomes ever. We may think this or that, but the heart is too pure to ever be reasoned and rationed with and we all know it, but few live it. Heck, I say design and ride what you really love , the heart never misleads or displeases. The customers will always be there to appreciate the beauty and freedom their bicycle represents to them, and isn't this what life is all about, living your inherent freedom ? No, we cannot we lose it or even give it awày, even if we try, as we are who and what we are and nothing can change this.

That is all I have to say about that , cheer-i-O !

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 01:32 PM, masmojo wrote:
> Not really sure what can be done, other then giving some models a rest.

Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How
many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced?

[Mark in Beacon]

Interesting idea, Bill. Kind of like Community Supported Bicycles, along the concept of Community Supported Agriculture. I recall Riv having tried something along these lines as a one-time thing, but not a formal program. I wonder how that went.

While it's true that this is mainly a financial issue, that gets more complex in a company that also has other strong values in addition to the bottom line, as well as a likely emotional content that could be problematic in such a situation. While by no means a direct comparison,  some of the same issues that Riv faces were ones that William Morris and the craft movement attempted to deal with.

Trying to run a company that attempts to adhere to a set of values that can run contrary to squeezing nickels out of every pore is not easy. It is interesting and important, though, because the global economy as it was envisioned is faltering, and will not work much longer. There are no direct and clear answers or solutions, but every attempt at creating useful objects and rewarding work that tries to address some of the ways the current system is not working/actively harmful is worth supporting whenever possible.

Because there is such an effort to make every bicycle useful, overlap is inevitable. Someone mentioned retooling the Roadeo to accept wider tires, but I suspect that would only make things even harder. There is the matter of evolving design parameters--upright, extrawide tires, loooong chainstays.  If that is a firm belief, creating the Rivendell line exclusively with these features would be one way to go. And/Or, for marketing clarity, to create two distinct classes of Riv to put the various bikes under on the website.

Classic Road
Roadeo/tig roadeo; AHH; Sam; Cheviot.
 
Street and Trail
Hunq; Atlantis; Appaloosa; Clem.

Probably not something overly appealing to the company approach, to strictly categorize like this, but I do believe it could help sell more bicycles. Further distinction and breakdown in the taxonomy would of course be in the intro to each section and the individual model page, written by the excellent in-house marketing dept. Based on what others are saying about frames that are ordered individually vs. in bulk, they could then pick one bulk order frame from each category to rest for a cycle or two (Which I believe they kind of do already. Somewhat related: One aspect of the Riv website I find mildly confusing is there seems to be a number of place where the same model is presented. I realize this has something to to with stock, complete builds, etc., but that could be done better.) 

[Bill Lindsay]

"Trouble is, in most cases a "rest" largely resembles a dirt nap. How 

many models that have been "given a rest" have ever resurfaced? "

Not many.  Why is that a 'trouble', as you put it?  Is there a discontinued model of Rivendell that you wish you could buy?  If no, what's the trouble, exactly?

[Bill Lindsay]

"along the concept of Community Supported Agriculture. I recall Riv having tried something along these lines as a one-time thing, but not a formal program. I wonder how that went."

the one-time-thing I recall was a bit of a cash-flow pickle.  They needed a bunch of quick cash to pay for a 100 bike order.  They sold $3000 store credits for $2500, which is pretty expensive cash.  Now I think they have line-of-credit arrangements so they'll never have to do that again.  The fact is, they pay something for line of credit money.  The rate is low because interest rates are really low, and they pay nothing if they aren't using it.  If there was a way for them to incentivize their customers to invest in the business, that got them access to even cheaper cash than a line of credit offers, that would be cool for them.  

Bill

[Mark in Beacon]

I like a nice lug myself, but I believe the Clem, between the oversize tubing, the fork crowns and seat tube cluster, the proportional sizing, and the luscious paint and colors, has a distinct beauty and substantial presence that marks it as something made with care and purpose, and its own equally wonderful aesthetic. Yum!

[Steve Palincsar]

There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent
cancellation." Something that is "resting" will at some point come
back. That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here.

[masmojo]

Yes, giving a model a nap could be the coda of that model, but more then likely it would also ultimately mean the genesis of another. With a growing number of choices, adding anything new may generate new sales, but many times it will be at the expense of other models. There can be little doubt that Joe App. Sales have most likely adversely effected Sam sales and possibly Hunq/Atlantis sales. The Tandem & Rosco Bubbe projects will likely have some trickle down to the regular line & rather then refreshing something it might indeed make sense to make more drastic changes.
All decisions have a financial aspect, but to concentrate on that or make that the primary driver in this decision might be wrong in this particular circumstance. Aside from the obvious costs associated with storing multiple sizes & colors of quite a few different bikes. Could be just a need to step back and ask if maybe the train has gone off the rails slightly, a realignment!

[Mark in Beacon]

Ouch! That makes Riv customers practically guilty of usury! I forgot there was such a big incentive (though strictly speaking, that would work out not quite as bad as it sounds, since they would be getting the cash up front and selling at retail.) But as I said, I like your idea. It could also feature non-cash incentives, kind of like a club--advance notice of sales, upgrades like pine tar or autographed books when buying that stuff, etc. The first 100 to sign up would be eligible to get their (full price) saddle sacks monogrammed! On second thought, maybe that would all be a bit too much for Grant & Co.

[Bill Lindsay]

"There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent 
cancellation."   Something that is "resting" will at some point come 
back.  That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here. "

OK, I think I understand.  When you said "trouble is", you didn't mean there was any trouble.  You meant to say "truth is".  

I agree with you, that Rivendell models that get phased out rarely get phased back in.  You surprised me by calling that "truth" a "trouble", because I know as well as you do that you won't be buying any Rivendells nor will you be handwringing over any Rivendells being discontinued.  The only one I can think of is the Legolas.  You can buy a nice new Legolas today, and it looks exactly like a Legolas of years ago, and there was a multi-year rest in which you couldn't buy a Legolas.  They can't promote it because of that lame Tolkein estate business, but you can get it.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 03:30 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> "There is a big conceptual difference between a "rest" and a "permanent
> cancellation." Something that is "resting" will at some point come
> back. That's almost certainly not what we're talking about here. "
>
> OK, I think I understand. When you said "trouble is", you didn't mean
> there was any trouble. You meant to say "truth is".
>
> I agree with you, that Rivendell models that get phased out rarely get
> phased back in. You surprised me by calling that "truth" a "trouble",
> because I know as well as you do that you won't be buying any
> Rivendells nor will you be handwringing over any Rivendells being
> discontinued. The only one I can think of is the Legolas. You can
> buy a nice new Legolas today, and it looks exactly like a Legolas of
> years ago, and there was a multi-year rest in which you couldn't buy a
> Legolas. They can't promote it because of that lame Tolkein estate
> business, but you can get it.
>

Misunderstandings and false assumptions can lead to disappointment when
the error is revealed. I personally won't be wringing my hands over any
Rivendells being discontinued, but we do see people expressing
disappointment that they failed to get one of the now-gone models when
it was available because they thought they could always get one later.
And honestly, when I see pictures of some of the more recent double top
tube Rivs with cruiser bars, I think back on or see examples of some of
the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I
cannot help but think, what a shame.

[Edwin W]

Lots of good points here. I hope Grant and co are listening to their free consultants. You get what you pay for!

Keep Atlantis, AHH, Hunq and Roadeo as made to order. Like Bill said, no hurt on the cash flow.

Clem/Clementine as entry level, taste the kool aid. Work hard to keep the popular sizes in stock.

Appaloosa as the country bike/tourer. Stick with one color, change it once a year or so.

Sounding too much like LHT? Innovate or die?

Sam gets tossed - no advantage over the Appaloosa, except that it fits better in a few cars because of shorter chainstays. Cut Appaloosa chain stays to closer to Sam. 48-50cm?

Betty, Cheviot, etc.... get tossed for same reason. If you are dying for a step through, just get the Clem low, and I am figuring they don't sell many >$2000 mixtes.

Me, I got a used Raleigh Sprite off this list, then a used Sam, then a Joe Appaloosa, then who knows what in five years! Atlanti are the coolest, in my book.

Edwin

[RichS]

Patrick, the 51 Sam does come with 650b wheels. It's a wonderful ride too! Hard to imagine the Sam disappearing from the lineup.

Believe Grant stated in a recent post the Cheviot would be going away due to high production costs.

Is there something to the recent request for more dealers? Expansion of the Clem lineup? More sizes, larger inventory, the proposed roadish Clem?

Regards,
Richard

[Ryan Fleming]

of the current rivendell line-up they are the least pleasing to my eye. But I see their usefulness; they are carefully and purposefully designed, and I'm sure very rugged as most Rivendells are. If I thought my partner would ever get on a bike again, I would order him one in a heartbeat. Hell, if I was flush, I'd order two

[James Warren]

-----Original Message-----
>From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>

>...I think back on or see examples of some of

>the "sleeping" models like the All-Rounder and the Rambouillet and I
>cannot help but think, what a shame.
>

All Rounder was never said to be sleeping.

Riv never promised models would be around forever, and they once used the unclear metaphor of sleeping (for the Ram). And it wasn't that unclear.

[Steve Palincsar]

"Sleeping" as in "Sleeps with the fishes..." ?

[Bill Lindsay]

I just bought myself a Rivendell Bicycle Works Gift Certificate....and a Triangia stove.  No usury at all here.  

[Bill Lindsay]

OK, so as usual, you are just being helpful to your fellow cyclists.  If you want product X, and if you know for a fact that you will regret not buying product X if it is discontinued someday, then buy product X before it is discontinued.  That's good advice.  

[stonehog]

Full disclosure, I have a Hunqa, Hilsen, and Appa (wife's).  My unaskedfor opinion:

Keepers:

• New Light Road/Gravel/Cross - fits wide tires (50s), light riders (thinner tubing), and replaces Roadeo, Hilsen, Legolas.  Keeps a 2 degree top tube for those who like the classic geometry, and comes it in lots of sizes to please fit purists and drop bar users who want a 10-12cm stem.
• Appaloosa - can replace Sam, Atlantis, Hunqa, Bomba as heavy duty mtb/tourer/bikepacker - has 6 degree slope, and less sizes to keep in stock.  Add diagatube to keep that in the lineup, or just rebadge Hunqa and emulate wheelsize/chainstays.  Drop the Joe.  Appaloosa is cool on its own.  Also fulfills the "animal" riv like the Saluki, and Hunqa (mammoth)
• Clem(entine) - keep the budget, lowest cost to get a Riv bike
  
• Cheviot/Foy - unique offering - also believe this was a big hit.

Discard, modify, or make custom: 

• Roadeo 
• Hillborne
• Atlantis 
• Hunqa
• Hilsen
• Hubbuhubbuh
  
• Rosco

I love all the bikes in the discard, but also loved all the bikes that have already gone to pasture.  They will always be available on the used (or custom) market as they last forever. 

Brian Hanson

Seattle, WA

www.stonehog.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On 09/15/2016 06:11 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> OK, so as usual, you are just being helpful to your fellow cyclists.
> If you want product X, and if you know for a fact that you will
> regret not buying product X if it is discontinued someday, then buy
> product X before it is discontinued. That's good advice.

You bet it is. Learned the truth of that through long-lasting regret.

[Don Compton]

Patrick,

I live in N. Calif. and stay away from riding in the rain. I never use fenders on my Roadeo. So, in that context, my Roadeo has room for some fairly large tires, atleast 38c without fenders. It has more room than my old Rambouillet.

On Thursday, September 15, 2016 at 9:19:42 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

I agree with Bill. Heck, on firm dirt and gravel with good tires, 28 mm does wonderfully well, as I can attest with my Compass Elk Passes, which are meant to be 32 mm wide but in fact measure, on my narrower and wider rims, respectively 27 and 29. 32 mm would be practically fat bike velvet. In fact, I'd say that Riv should make the Roadeo even more roadie-like by lightening the tubing.

Can the Hill take 45s and fenders, or 50s without? If not, make it so! Make the smaller models with 650B wheels.

On Wed, Sep 14, 2016 at 9:11 PM, Bill M. <bmen...@comcast.net> wrote:

Sorry, can't agree.  The Roadeo is set up to maximize clearance with a standard reach caliper.  Stretching it to bigger rubber would mean different brakes, and basically make it a slightly lighter Hilsen.  Too much overlap there.  IMO 28 - 33 mm is a sweet spot for a fast, comfortable, paved road, club-sport-not-quite-a-racing bike.  

I've been thinking about having a custom frame built.  Every time I take a stab at the geometry I'd want, then nudge it back to what can actually be built without running into clearance problems, I wind up with something that might as well be a Roadeo.

[Brian Campbell]

Rivendell should sell whatever they can, so that they remain a viable enterprise going forward. I don't really care what new new models come and what old models go. They do good work  IMHOand that is what I support.