Indexing Rapid Rise Questions

[Drw]

Ok, so I had a rapid rise derailler around and all this talk from rivendell got me to put it on my partner's bike that i'm building up. I can't for the life of me get it to index correctly. Not saying the derailler is the problem, but i've never had this issue with regular pull deraillers, so im wondering if i'm missing something.

Components:

Rivendell Platypus 

Microshift 9 speed thumb shifter for shimano (new)

9 speed shimano cassette (not new but good shape)

Deore LX rapid rise derailer (not new but good shape)

Specific symptoms:

-Can tune it to get the highs and lows, but the middle 2-3 gears get it jumping all over and not engaging with the cassette. 

Any thoughts would be appreciated,

Drew. LA

[Joe Bernard]

I'd look for a loose chain first, it might be too stretched in the middle gears where there's not much angle on it. Next is a sticky cable, it might be binding in the housing. 

Also if you're using a Microshift 9 thumb shifter I've found some are less than awesome. They don't recenter as well as Shimano, so you can end up with the shift kinda sticking wherever you pushed it instead of settling back to center over the chosen cog. 

[Drw]

Thanks Joe, 

Those sound like a couple of good leads I can tackle. 

[Collin A]

Also check the hanger alignment, but usually that issue results in shifting working fine on one end and not the other...and not in the middle as you describe.

Was it working fine when you used a 'normal' deraileur?

Collin in single-speed friendly Sacramento

On Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 4:34:18 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:

[Drw]

the frame is new to me. the rapid rise, is the first deraileur i've tried with it. I did consider that but since the frame is essentially new, i wanted to rule out the components first. 

[Richard Rose]

I cannot answer your question but I am having a similar problem on my Clem with a Deore rear mech. I suspect cable stretch on this new bike?

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 27, 2022, at 7:10 PM, Drw <drewbe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, so I had a rapid rise derailler around and all this talk from rivendell got me to put it on my partner's bike that i'm building up. I can't for the life of me get it to index correctly. Not saying the derailler is the problem, but i've never had this issue with regular pull deraillers, so im wondering if i'm missing something.

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[Joe Mullins]

I have a limited knowledge of how all these parts work together but its my understanding that Shimano 9 speed MTB rear derailleur is the same cable pull as Shimano 10 speed road shifters. I am using a 10 speed Shimano bar end shifter with a rapid rise XT rear derailleur and it indexes a 10 speed cassette pretty well but it does make some funny noise in the middle. It is super sensitive and even the slightest misadjustment of cable tension has thrown it off to the point where it skips in the middle. A careful re-adjustment fixes it. I’ve only had that problem once in the last year since I built the bike that it’s on.

So I wonder if the Microsoft 9 speed is meant to work with a 9 speed road RD… Again, I don’t know enough about this stuff to see a glaring problem but I do know that my setup works.

Joe

 

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[Joe Bernard]

On a new bike yes, the cable has probably stretched. If you're not familiar with fiddling with indexing I'll try a short explainer. 

If you have the older style Deore there will be a cable adjuster on the derailer where the housing ends. Put your bike in the middle cog (5th gear on a 9-speed). Is the pulley directly under that cog? You can turn the adjuster counterclockwise to move it leftward, towards the bigger cogs; clockwise to move right, closer to the smaller cogs. Shift up and down the cassette, you'll probably need to do this a few times until the indexing is correct.

If it's a newer Deore without the adjuster on the derailer you can use the one at the shifter. Which I find super annoying so I don't buy those kind so I don't know which way to turn it, but you'll figure it out after a few turns this way and that. Good luck! 

[Garth]

Drew, These shifters have a friction mode, yes ?  If they shift and hold all the gears in friction, but not with indexing it would either be wonky shifters or they are very sensitive to tension. The LX RR has a cable tensioner yes ?  Play around with it slightly as you're shifting and see where/when/if it's hold those middle gears. 

The middle cogs on 9-speed cassettes, like the 18-21-24 are most prone to wandering, so the derailleur position needs to be "just right" to hold the cogs. 

[James Valiensi]

Hi,

As a matter of fact, derailleur cables do not stretch. The forces involved in shifting are many orders of magnitude lower than the yield stress required to stretch the cable. What actually happens is that inside liner of the cable housing wears and causes the cable to become looser. Generally, a half turn out of the cable tension adjuster will compensate for this.

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<Screenshot_20220227-194621_Chrome.jpg><Screenshot_20220227-194607_Chrome.jpg>

[Drw]

Thanks all, 

Yes, the shifters do friction and that's how it's being used now. Seems to hold the gears fine in friction. 

Follow up question. Is ALL shimano 9 speed the same? Road/MTN? Thinking I may just pick up a 9 speed altus if the tinkering doesnt pan out. 

[Garth]

Yes, all 6--9 speed road and mtn stuff adheres to the same cable pull ratio.

[Richard Rose]

Interesting. Will moving the shifter location on the handlebar generally require a cable adjustment? I’ve been playing quite a bit with where I want those shifters.

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 28, 2022, at 8:37 AM, James Valiensi <jpval...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,

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[Joe Bernard]

Moving the shifter shouldn't be a problem, I suspect you simply don't have quite what you need to index-shift that low-normal mech. 

Joe Bernard

[Pam Bikes]

Just don't index.  I'm using the RR and the bar end shifters - both on friction.  Never needs adjusting.  You adjust it each time you shift  - just like an old radio dial.  My RR is one of my only original parts on my bike 63,000 miles in.

On Monday, February 28, 2022 at 12:36:55 PM UTC-5 Drw wrote:

[Drw]

Just to close this loop, I bought an Acera derailler (surprisingly nice), popped it on and it works perfectly. Didn't even really need to adjust anything other than the limit screws. If anyone wants an LX rapid rise in good shape, let me know.