Sam Hillborne EU

[K AL]

Hi all,

Looking for a Sam in Europe. Frame size: I'm 5' 8" with a saddle height of about 72cm (so PBH in 83cm region.) Would also consider a Homer, or even an older Atlantis (we can but dream, huh.) Hell, almost anything Riv in the EU would be good :D  

Just sold my Clem 59 on, which I'd owned for just two years, as sadly I'd come to accept that it just felt too big for me. Don't want to be Riv-less for too long though... 

 

[John Johnson]

Both Sams and Homers are up for presale on the Lachouetteparis.com site.

Great shop, great guys, but a frame'll set you back 2300 European fun tickets.

Where are you located? 

John

(Fellow European clem owner)

[Batwing]

I was lucky enough to visit La Chouette in Paris last month.  

I was impressed.  Indeed, great staff, amazing shop.  They did have a couple full builds that they were selling.  A few frames in stock.  

If I was in the EU, I would give them my business.

Yours,

Ryan, Stateside 

[K AL]

Hi John & Ryan,

Cheers for the info. Greetings from Finland. Yes, purchased from the Owl guys in Paris in the past :) Been keeping tabs on the presale at Riv but not convinced with this year's colours* enough to go the new frameset route again so soon after the Clem (ouch!) Built up a lovely vintage Raleigh Competition over the summer as a 650b conversion, hoping it'd work as a kind of substitute-Sam. Lovely on day rides, less so fully loaded (1" top tube etc will do that.) 

So, even though it's a long shot hoping to find a Sam or similar here in the EU. And preferably just a frameset (as I've parts left over from the Clem!) 

* The Sam 'Sage' looks light blue in a lot of the pics, rather than the greyish/green I was hoping it'd be.

Cheers and Happy Clem-ing :) 

[Brian Turner]

Your measurements are exactly the same as mine, all around. I picked up one of the recent Sams from the pre-order in a 54cm. Best of luck on your search!

Brian

Lexington KY

[K AL]

Hi Brian - Thanks and enjoy your Sam when it arrives! Which colour did you go for?

[der_amerikanische_freund]

Have you checked this Sam in Portugal?

https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/6JgT8K-hTsE

[Brian Turner]

I’m a mustard man!

[K AL]

Thanks. Indeed I have and it's a beautiful build. Exchanged a few messages with the owner who's understandably keener to sell as a complete bike at the moment. Also I'm not 100% if it'd work size-wise, which is obviously a great concern after my Clem. However, I found an old Riv catalogue from the period which states that it would be suitable for someone who's 5' 8" My feeling is that it might work built up with sweptback bars,...maybe. After all, the standover needn't be an issue when the bike would be primarily used as a tourer. 

[K AL]

Nice! Has a pretty cool 70s vibe huh - My main concern would be whether one could carry off my orange (or rather 'rust') bags! And I don't mean 'carry' as in haul ;) 

 

On Wednesday, November 12, 2025 at 9:36:30 PM UTC+2 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

I’m a mustard man!

[Feliks Ulvåen Isaksen]

Hey!

My old 60cm Sam in bronzey green (crazy nice colour) is for sale from its current owner here in Norway (although outside EU technically)

https://www.finn.no/recommerce/forsale/item/420519222

I think he's selling it as a full build, but if you're interested in the bike I would try to message him about doing a deal on the frameset.  

[K AL]

Takk Feliks! 

That's a lovely looking Sam in a great colour but sadly at 60cm would be way too big for me. Hope your friend finds a buyer - who knows, perhaps someone on here? 

[K AL]

Quick bump on this if that's ok. WTB a 54-58cm Sam Hillborne here in the EU. Would also consider other Riv models in my size - see first post for details. Cash waiting for right frameset! Hoping someone somewhere here in Europe can help! :) 

[K AL]

Still looking. WTB an older Sam, Homer or Atlantis...in the EU. Details as in opening post. 

Please drop me a line if you have or know of something suitable. To clarify: would prefer 700c frameset in order to use the wheels and parts left over from my previous Clem. Would also consider options outside of the EU if the seller is open to exporting their frameset but obviously would prefer to find something closer to home (if such a Riv actually exists, lol!) 

[K AL]

Still on the lookout so please let me know if you've a Sam frameset you're looking to move on in the EU. Happy new year to you all and happy Riving in 2026!   

[K AL]

I know that statistically this probably won't happen...but still searching. Please drop me a line if you can help. Again, would be happy to look into importing one from the US if that'll be the only route. Preference would be an Orange Sam, size 54 up to 57ish. Older (so shorter stay) Homer might work, as would a similar period Atlantis. Cheers all! :) 

[Dave Johnston]

72cm saddle height? You don't want a 57cm. A 54cm would probably be OK, but on the large side. A 51cm would probably be the right size. Or a 53cm Atlantis. This is from my experience with 71-72cm saddle heights.

-Dave J

[K AL]

Well, I did say about 72cm. I've been happily riding a 55cm Crust Lightning Bolt for the past three years (which is 58 c-t seat tube) so would be pretty comfortable on up to a 57 I feel, especially set up with the bars etc left over from my Clem. Hard to give a hard and fast 'wanted' measurement on Sams as they've varied over the years too (currently 54, been 55, 56 etc etc.) 

51cm would be a no-go for me as (as I've posted above) a) I don't want another 650b right now and b) want to use the parts left over from the Clem, including the pretty expensive wheelset that's gathering dust right now & c) I wouldn't want a lot of seatpost showing as I'm just not a fan of when classically styled frames end up looking more like compact frame geo. Looking back at older Rivs they weren't set up the way many are now: they looked much more like traditional tourers, which is what I prefer. More French Fit, if you like. 

Done a lot of research on Bike Insights too, so, as far as a Sam would go at least, 54-56...possibly 57 would be good (and given how this is a needle in a haystack kind of search here in Europe, I don't want to be ruling too many sizes out - it makes sense, honestly ;) )

BTW, in the catalogue I posted up-thread Riv were recommending their 58cm Sams at the time as being suitable for 5' 8" and upwards...

  

[K AL]

 Attaching pics of my LB and also the Soma Grand Randonneur which it replaced. I know which fit I prefer, aesthetically :)   

...

[K AL]

[Dave Johnston]

Be aware that older Rivs had 2deg sloping top tube, I think the Crust is level and there is some extension of the seat tube above the top tube on the crust and soma as well. In old Rivs and the old Heron I ride a 56 or 57 but with the 6 deg sloping top tube of the Sam or Appaloosa I'm between a 51 and 54, so would choose a 51 for the Sam and 53 for the new Atlantis. French Fit doesn't really work with a 6 deg upslope but it can work with the 2 deg upslope. If you want a french fit I'd recommend an older Toyo or MUSA Atlantis or Saluki (even more rare I know).

For an 83cm PBH Riv is recommending a 51 or 54.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/RBW_Bicycle_Geometries_August_2025.pdf?v=1755816394

Bike insights has been wrong in the visual comparison diagrams for a bunch of Rivs because it doesn't know that the seat tube ends at the lug which is basically center to top of top tube. For most other welded bikes the seat tube continues up past the top tube an inch or more to the top of the seat collar clamp. So the Bike insight comparison diagrams sometimes ends up showing the Riv top tube lower than it actually is. Read the charts instead for standover height. 

See below for instance. While the 2018 Atlantis did get a longer top tube and chainstays, the actual height of the top tube did not change. The white 2017 is correctly showing a seat tube with no extension above the top tube, while the black diagram is incorrectly showing a seat tube that extends above the top tube

I mostly think people buy bikes way to small so its very rare for me to warn somebody that a bike might be too big. Here is my 55cm MB-2 (level top tube) set up French Fit!

[Dave Johnston]

and just for grins here is my 18" MB-3 set up NORBA fit or whatever the hell we were thinking in the 90s:

[K AL]

Hi Dave,

That's a lot of good info and advice there, much appreciated. Great points on the various degrees of slope-age and also the Bike Insight diagrams being inconsistent.  I think to clarify: on the current models I definitely would happier riding a current 54cm than a 51. The stack, reach and standover numbers would work better for me, and for the reasons outlined I've raised throughout, I wouldn't be as happy with a 51. 

Backstory with the Soma: Went to a lot of time, money and effort to put the project together, importing the frameset and any extra components I needed from outside of Finland (there's not a great amount of, for want of a better word, 'retro' parts here.) Having finished the build, I took it down from the workstand, ready to lower the seatpost on my new 'randonneuse' and to my horror I had to raise it up the way, even further than I'd had it when in the stand. My heart sank when I realised that it looked, to my eyes at least, more like a gravel or mountain bike rather than the one of the machines in BQ I'd been ogling for months and years. I can smile about it now, but at the time it was terrible...  

Prior to purchasing I'd been recommended the 52 by 3 out of 4 suppliers I'd contacted. Anyway, standover on the Soma was 765.5mm vs 809mm on my LB. A 51 Sam would be 782mm, a 54, 816mm. Been much much happier with my LB! I think it's fair to say that fit also depends on how the finished bike will be ridden: road, gravel, trails etc... As far as a Sam would go it'd be utilised as a touring rig and would sit nicely in-between my LB and Stooge Rambler. Upthread I've mentioned my misadventures with a Raleigh Competition, last summer's project...

Ofcourse, you're good to point out the dangers of sizing up too big and given that I had to sell on my beautiful Clem for that very reason it's something that I know all too well about. Despite it being a step-thru, Riv's general advice on Clem sizing really didn't work out for me: they're humungous frames! Standover ofcourse was a non-issue but it felt like I had too much bike in front of me, was unwieldy getting it in and out of the house, and I could never somehow find my rhythm on it, unlike my other bikes. So all in all another bike-build-heartache and this time with a substantial financial hit as well...

To summarise then I should probably emphasise again that as Riv's delineation for the Sam's has shifted over the years (there've been 54, 55, 56 and 57...I think?) then, yes, the latest 57 would be too big but that a 51 is not for me. An early Atlantis would be a whole other conversation, no doubt, and getting real for a moment...it's not gonna happen for me here in Europe. Even finding a Sam is going to prove to be quite the task I fear :( 

BTW - I hear you about 90s MTBs. Pictured is my Kona Hahanna that's been my daily-driver for 15 years now, used as a commuter, doing the recycling, but mostly as my shopping bike...basically it's my transport, as I'm car-free. Was even my 'road' bike at the beginning :D 

All in all, quite the bike really...

   

     

 

[Dave Johnston]

I do think a 54cm would work for you, I was just worried when you started mentioning 57s. 

Here is a picture of my girlfriend's 51cm Appaloosa with the saddle set for me at a hair above 72cm. 170 cranks and fat pedals raise the saddle up a bit in my range if I want to ride it. I'm not really allowed to ride it though unless I am doing maintenance or "dialing it in". :p

With the upslope and long head tube it totally works for me, but I could also go bigger. In my case I actually prefer the 650b so that would be a factor in my decision, but not as important as overall fit.

[Dave Johnston]

Love the old Kona MTB. It certainly looks racy, even pulling a trailer.

Here is my "new-ish" Kona, a 2020 Kona Rove. It's a 54cm! (52cm measured Center to top of top tube) I just got it so its not fully dialed in, I have changed and lowered the saddle since this picture.

[Brian Turner]

My numbers for bike setup are all in line with yours (83 PBH, 72cm saddle height), and I feel exactly the same about the aesthetics of a “French fit” vs. going smaller and having too much seatpost. I think you’re going to more than ok with a 54 Sam. That’s what I ended up with.

Brian
Lexington KY

[K AL]

'...I was just worried when you started mentioning 57s.'

Absolutely and it's been good of you to help out, cheers :) Both bikes looking great there - Happy cycling to you both!  

Big fan of 650b as well with three of my current bikes running 650b, the Bolt, Rambler and the late 70s Raleigh Comp, which ofcourse I converted. To mitigate my losses (slightly) on the Clem I really want to reuse the 700c wheelset that I had built up for it, and as well as personal aesthetics the extra stack on a 54 will be good as well as I'm not getting any younger :P 

  

[K AL]

Cheers Brian 👍 Enjoy your mustard 54. Look forward to seeing it posted once you've got it all built up. 

[J]

Backstory with the Soma: Went to a lot of time, money and effort to put the project together, importing the frameset and any extra components I needed from outside of Finland (there's not a great amount of, for want of a better word, 'retro' parts here.) 

Noticed you are in Finland. Are you familiar with Tunk Bicycles? Seems right up your alley with aesthetic and in Finland. https://www.tunkbicycles.com/

[K AL]

Hi J,

Cheers 👍

Yeah, was in touch with the Tunk people whilst they were still developing the frames. They've really gone for it with the details, features, a plethora of sizing option and the finished framesets look superb. Sadly, for various reasons, wouldn't work out for me right now: 650b in my size (they'd have probably put me on a 59cm they said :O - they're uber-French Fit aficionados there in the capital ;) ) TIG welded, whilst I really want to go lugged this time. And finally, they mentioned that maybe one'd end up being a bit too similar to the Bolt for me (I'd venture probably closer to a Romanceur, all things being considered, but a fair point.) I absolutely adore the LB by the way, just don't want to subject it to any overloading. Crust have them rated as 100kg/220 lbs max.    

https://crustbikes.com/collections/frames/products/lightning-bolt-canti

Wishing Tunk loads of success with the framesets and hopefully it'll be the first of many. Think they're really on the ball with having them made in Europe as well - that's got to be the way forward in 2026 and beyond. 

ps although my Finnish is ropey at best, a tip for everyone in the bike world outside of Finland: the pronunciation is 'T-oo-nk' ;)