Fenderless Sam: Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass?

[tc]

Disregarding fenders (don't need), off-roading (have an Ogre for that), and weight (don't expect it to make a diff) -- I'm looking at trying either Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires on my Sam.  Rims are Alex DM18 (18.4).  I generally carry only myself (190lbs), 1 or 2 water bottles, normal assortment of bike tools, frame pump, spare tube, and sometimes snacks and light jacket/sweater.

Given these tires are the same price, is there any reason not to get the 44s? I know bigger isn't always better, but from what I've read, the 44s might be the ticket.

Thoughts?

Thanks!

Tom

[David B]

I'd go Snoqualmie Pass. Weirdly the current run of Snoqualmie Pass tires are lighter than the smaller Barlow Pass, by quite a bit. I'd go standard Snoqualmie if it were me as the standard is lighter than the current extralight Barlow Pass. I just sold my Snoqualmie's only because I'm downsizing and trying out 26" and 650b builds.
David

[Deacon Patrick]

Snoqualmie.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Carla Waugh]

Barlow pass and regular not light. I have had better luck in Oklahoma with stickers and not with Stan’s. I had the others in the light version and had a flat right off the bat so it’s Barlow passes for now. Minus the stickers either would have been fine.

[tc]

Carla, thanks - I should probably know what you mean by ‘stickers’ - could you elaborate? Do you mean thorns, etc?

[Patrick Moore]

Carla: curious: why not Stan's -- or, better, Orange Seal? works perfectly for me, in tubes and without.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 2:47 PM, Carla Waugh <lhtbik...@gmail.com> wrote:

Barlow pass and regular not light. I have had better luck in Oklahoma with stickers and not with Stan’s. I had the others in the light version and had a flat right off the bat so it’s Barlow passes for now. Minus the stickers either would have been fine.

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[EasyRider]

That is weird. Is it a typo?

Barlow gets my vote, assuming it actually is lighter.

[Bill Lindsay]

I strongly suspect the Case mass website accidentally swapped the weights of the Snoqualmies and the Barlows. I just got a pair of Steilacoom EL knob bows in 700x38 and they are lighter (measured) than the claimed weight of the Barlows. That has to be a mistake.

If your Sam has side pull brakes, I’d go Barlow. If you have cantilevers, flip a coin, but I’d still go Barlow.

Bill my-Sam-has-Barlow-EL Lindsay
El Cerrito, Ca.

[Bill Lindsay]

Darn iPhone autocorrect. Not ‘Case pass’. Compass.

[tc]

LOL -- I know the feeling -- I feel the same way about [My Fingers + iPhone] ... sometimes I wanna throw the dang thing in the woods :)

My Sam has the Tektro R559 sidepulls.  

[tc]

That is odd!  I wonder, too, if they swapped the weights accidently.  Regardless, we're talking 0.1lbs difference per tire...a small bag of peanuts :)

On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 at 4:01:52 PM UTC-5, David B wrote:

...Weirdly the current run of Snoqualmie Pass tires are lighter than the smaller Barlow Pass, by quite a bit.

[Carla Waugh]

Stickers are sandburs so yes tiny little thorns. I do need to try Stan’s or the other one mentioned. Soon I’ll do that. With almost a 1000 miles in my Sam I have tried several tires and I never had a flat with Rivendell JB’s nor my BG tires. If I continue with my Barlow’s I better get with the program. Thanks

[David B]

Weights are correct as listed. Compass stated that the new run of TC Barlows came in heavy, and the first batch of Snoqualmies were extremely lightweight. Jan mentioned that he expected later batches to be different, but as it stands right now, Snoqualmie's are lighter than Barlows.
David

[Rod Holland]

On the other hand, if you don't plan to run tubeless and you can get hold of a NOS or Nwhatever pair of pre-TC Barlow Pass Extralights, I suspect you'll enjoy them. Have run both Barlows and Snoqs, EL in both cases, on the same bike, and enjoyed both. Barlow steering seems a little quicker, but the keyword is "seems".

rod

[Bill Lindsay]

Well dang. I trust David, and if he’s weighed them himself and assured us the posted weights are accurate, the that’s that.

Run Steilacooms instead! They roll awesome, will clear your side pull brakes, and I’ve weighed them myself and can confirm they are a few grams lighter than the published weight, so far lighter than Barlow Pass, which David has measured. You’ll be sneaky fast on a bike that looks all ‘crossed up and rugged.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca.

[Bill Schairer]

I’ve been running the Steilcooms on my Atlantis for a short time and so far like them well enough but they do have an annoying whine on pavement. Not quite as bad as a 4 wheel drive, lifted truck with off road tires but... I do like the way they corner better than the Cazaderos I had on there before.

[tc]

With the R559 brakes it looks like available height for the 44 Snoqualmie's would be more of an issue than width.

My Marathon 35's measure 34.5mm wide X 36.5 high (60psi, front tire, unloaded) on the Alexrims DM18 (18.4 inner rim width).

Has anyone mounted Snoqualmie's on a rim with an inner width in the 18-19mm range on a Sam?  I know the Sam is supposed to handle 44mm tires, but it dawned on me that they don't spec what rim/brake is required to support that.  

On Wednesday, December 20, 2017 at 7:33:22 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:

...If your Sam has side pull brakes, I’d go Barlow. If you have cantilevers, flip a coin, but I’d still go Barlow.

[drew]

Don't know about brakes, but 44 on a 18-19 rim shouldn't be an issue. I had 50mm marathons on dyads (I think they are 19mm internal) on a Sam and there was nothing close to an issue that came up. This was with Paul racers. I'd bet the 559's clear 44mm just fine.

[DarinM]

Just to reinforce, I emailed Compass about this a few weeks ago and was assured by that the weights are correct as listed. The current Barlow’s are even heavier than the size below, if I remember correctly. If I were set on that size I would go with the new Panaracer Gravel King in 38mm for almost half the price.

Darin in Seattle

[tc]

Thanks Drew, good to know you've actually done it, albeit with Racers.  Theoretically 44's should work on a rim as narrow as 17mm per this Maxxis article,

THE RIGHT TYRE WIDTH ON THE RIGHT RIM WIDTH

On ibob I found this post by Rod Holland, who mounted Snoqualmie EL's on a 17.5mm rim and they measured only 40.49mm wide...which width-wise would fit no problem.  I guess his narrow width measurement isn't so surprising given the narrow rim.  Don't know his pressure nor tire height, but I would imagine all that material has to go somewhere, and that would be 'up', as in height.  Nor do I know the diff in width/height of EL's compared to standard.

After the hustle-bustle of the holidays are over I will try to find out what the tire profile measurements are for standard Snoqualmie's on a 18-19mm rim and see if they'd fit under my R559's. I'm thinking the height might be the killer there.

[Bill Lindsay]

Darin said Compass confirmed Barlow Pass tires came in a little heavy.

Did they say where the weight is? Is it a heavier tread? Is it heavier casing? Or some combination?

[Rod Holland]

If y'all advise me on the preferred methodology for measuring tire height, I've still got those tires mounted on the same rims, and could take a measurement and report.

rod

[DarinM]

A little heavy compared to the sizes above and below the Barlow’s. I was told that the stated weight on their website is correct.

Darin

[Bill Lindsay]

I will take Darin’s answer to mean that Compass did not say if this batch of Barlow Pass tires came in heavy due to having more tread or heavier casing or something else. They just came in heavy.

[tc]

Rod, that's awesome!  I just set psi to 60 on the front unloaded tire and measured max width.  For height (above rim lip), I rested the bottom edge of the caliper on the top of the rim; for the top edge of the caliper I rested a small spirit level on the top of the tire and measured up to that from the rim.  Highly unscientific but at least gets a ballpark measure :)  

Thanks, and happy holidays!

[Philip Williamson]

I have David’s Snoqualmies mounted on CR-18s (thanks David!) and can measure the height on Tuesday. I like them after one ride. I like 38mm tires also, so I think you couldn’t go wrong with either choice.

Philip
Santa Rosa, CA

[tc]

I can now confirm that Snoqualmie Pass (44mm) tires fit just fine on my fenderless Sam with Tektro R559 sidepulls.  I hope that is helpful for some of you current or future Sam owners considering these tires.

Pictures here: 

https://photos.app.goo.gl/9kfJxuf3sXyDyBoA3

Personally, I really like the tan sidewalls with the orange frame!

I only had time for a 10 min test ride but can tell they're lighter and certainly more cush than the 35mm marathons they replaced.  I weigh about 190; they're inflated to 50 psi, which is likely almost 5lbs over optimum.

Speaking of optimum:  Not to start another 'optimum pressure' storm, but Jan's article on minimum tire pressure attracted a commenter who created this cool Excel spreadsheet to calculate optimum pressure.  If you're interested, just go here and download the spreadsheet (if you don't make a local copy, others who access it online may overwrite you and vice-versa):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15nT3Q2Cnk6-2HbRSpPngFEoR5QnLTQZdlzofzC_mLTY/edit#gid=0

Tom

[Deacon Patrick]

Keep in mind those “optimum” pressure numbers are a starting point and a wide variety of factors will change “optimum” for any given rider/road/trail/set up. I found 30-35 psi what perfect for the Snowqualmie, and with the Barlow/Steilacoom I up that by 5psi, and likely ten if I ride loaded. I weigh 200 lbs. and any given ride includes asphault, dirt trail, dirt road of varying loose/pack, and technical single track and I prefer to not change pressure between surfaces, riding with enough pressure to avoid pinch flats on the technical stuff and letting that be my guide.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Adam Kilgas]

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 12:57:05 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:
> I can now confirm that Snoqualmie Pass (44mm) tires fit just fine on my fenderless Sam with Tektro R559 sidepulls.  I hope that is helpful for some of you current or future Sam owners considering these tires.
>

Awesome pictures, thanks! According to Riv' s write-up, the new canti-Sams have a bit more tire clearance...I would assume that with the removal of calipers, the chainstays or upper fork spacing would be the new tight spots.

[tc]

Patrick, wow, 30-35lbs!  It will require a mind-bending change for me to go the low-pressure route, but I'm giving it a go.  I've been reading up on Jan's research, as corroborated by others who do this in practice (including you and others in the bunch).   Not going tubeless yet -- though rim, tire, and sealant design sure make me hopeful that I'll feel confident doing so in the not-too-distant future.

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 1:04:31 PM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Keep in mind those “optimum” pressure numbers are a starting point and a wide variety of factors will change “optimum” for any given rider/road/trail/set up....

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes, the tan looks great. More susceptible to UV damage and getting dirty, but often worth it. Question: I am contemplating a handlebar bag on one of my bikes with bar ends. I see that you just let the bag move the cables out the way. Has this affected shifting at all? I know some folks go under the tape all the way up, but I don't really want to mess with that right now.

On Sunday, January 14, 2018 at 12:57:05 PM UTC-5, tc wrote:

[Deacon Patrick]

Ha, TC! My suggestion is to inflate to 30psi and ride. Listen to the bike. It will tell you what it needs. The trick, of course, is to not confuse preconcieved notions or fears for the voice of the bike. Grin. The way I do it is to inflate to the upper range and let time deflate it, and when the bike starts asking for more air, I see what the pressure reads. Then I have my range.

With abandon,
Patrick

[tc]

Mark, thanks.  No shifting issues -- just enough length/play in the cables to make it work I guess.

[Deacon Patrick]

I forgot to mention I briefly experimented with running Orange seal in my tubes and the fuss and mess was too much for me. I don’t have issues here with thornes and I know how to (mostly) avoid pinch flats, so the only flats I get are due to big gashes from glass or other detrius. So my 30-35 psi with the Snoqualmie is tubed, as are my other psi’s for the other Compass tires.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

IME, even the best modern sealants work best on very small punctures, where they work excellently. But for large holes say for big nails, again IME, they are worse than no sealant, at least for tubes, since they don't seal these and make a mess that prevents patching. I carry spare tubes on each of my bikes for this eventuality.

But: though from thorns I used to consider 5 flats a week normal, I find that big punctures, where I live, are more like 1 every 5 years, though I don't usually ride where there are a lot of sharp rocks.

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Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?

[Surlyprof]

Tom,

I agree with Patrick. I ride Barlow ELs at about 40# which is close to what he’s suggesting Keven Moran, when he was at Riv, suggested I lower the pressure and showed me his bike to prove he ran them low. I tried it on an old mountain bike that had too narrow rims for the tires and it was scary. Felt like my tires were about to roll off the rims. With the BPs on Synergy rims I have worked back down to a lower pressure despite my fears. Of course it took a while to get there and I came to it accidentally out of laziness more than anything else. I hadn’t ridden for several weeks and didn’t bother to do a quick once over before heading out. I freaked out a bit when I saw that my tires were expanding out at the bottoms. But, again being lazy, I ignored it and continued my ride. Shortly after I was just enjoying the ride and forgot about it. The ride was the smoothest I’d experienced. I checked the tires when I got home and they were at 40 in the front and 35 in the rear. Been hovering around 40 ever since and have become much more confident on gravel. No flats, pinch or otherwise, in a year and a half.

John

[tc]

Thanks for chiming in, John.  Yeah, I guess I should be scared of running them at to HIGH a pressure since that will likely encourage more flats given how thin the tires are.  Nevertheless, I will just have to find the sweet spot.  I'm really not that anxious about flatting while riding, since I don't commute nor tend to ride roads that have a ton of debris.  Rather, it's the stupid things that I can picture myself doing (running up and grazing a curb too quickly, letting something in a garage slam up against the tire, taking a bumpy-boarded greenway bridge to fast, etc.) that give me pause.  That's what extra tubes are for.  Anyway, I'm looking fwd to the cush once the snow clears.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 10:03:48 AM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:

Tom,

I agree with Patrick.  I ride Barlow ELs at about 40# which is close to what he’s suggesting...

[Patrick Moore]

Whether you get inch flats in my experience is almost, if not entirely, as much a matter of how you ride than what your pressure is. I rode 22 mm actual tires, quite supple -- these were the old Specialized 26 X "` Turbos, very nice except for width -- at 80/90 for years with rear loads up to 35 lb across rough pavement with no problems except breaking the occasional Revolution rear spoke (I fixed that by having the wheel rebuilt with 14/15s). I let my front tire pressure on 60 mm tires drop to as low as 12 psi and never came close to pinch flatting.

Two other observations: I've noticed what others have reported: stiffer, heavier tires can get by with lower pressures than supple, light ones, so that some of the advantage of a supple tire, at least 50+ mm wide ones, and when run off pavement, is lost because you have to pump them harder. I used to regularly run my 60 mm Big Apples at 16/19 (I'm 175): sure, these flopped a bit on pavement turns, but I never came close to pinch flatting. With my new Big Ones, at ~15 front, I thought I'd fall off the bike when I made my first pavement turn, so great was the flop, and I quickly increased pressure to that I used in the 1 cm narrower F Freds, 23 (25-6 rear) -- which makes them less cushiony on dirt than the Big Apples. (Note: I used tubes in the BAs; the BOs are tubeless, so the absence of tubes may increase the required minimum pressure slightly; I don't know.)

But the Big Ones are worth it despite no added cushioning because they seem to roll almost as fast on pavement as good road tires; at any rate, they're faster than the already fast F Freds on pavement.

And: as far as avoiding pressures that allow wheel flop in turns: I have concluded that there is no perfect all round pressure for, at least, (a) supple tires that are (b) fat and (c) ridden on pavement and on dirt: you will either have some front wheel flop, or your pressure will be less than ideal for soft dirt. But you won't get pinch flats if you are careful on any except perhaps the most bumpy terrain.

All of the above for a given rim width. Wider or narrower rims affect performance, obviously, which leads to the last observation: wider rims for a given tire, at least for 50 and 60 mm wide tires of given suppleness, reduce the tire's cushioning effect at a given pressure. I noticed that, when I swapped 24 mm wide rims to 44 mm wide ones, the 60 mm Big Apples felt harsher at the same pressures.

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[tc]

Aren't Big Apples great?  I run 2"ers on my Ogre (with Jones bar and uncut steerer tube) sometimes as something different, and I gotta tell you that is one sweet bike.  I was amazed at the difference (for the better) compared to the stock WTB Nanos, which aren't shabbyy actually.  Sometimes I have to laugh at myself sweating over grams of tire weight, when I know good and well I don't really notice an extra water bottles' worth of weight in tires alone on that thing, compared to some of the light tires we all talk about.  That Ogre (aptly named) just glides silently and smoothly, looking ugly as heck but I don't care...it's just really comfortable.

On Wednesday, January 17, 2018 at 10:19:05 AM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

.... I used to regularly run my 60 mm Big Apples at 16/19 (I'm 175): sure, these flopped a bit on pavement turns, but I never came close to pinch flatting...

[Patrick Moore]

If it weren't for modern sealants like Stan's and Orange Seal, I'd still be riding 60 mm Big Apples on dirt and Kojaks on pavement, with tubes. I must say that, while I think Compass has among the fastest riding tires out there, Schwalbe has gone at least as far with their lineup of tires that range from as light or lighter than Compass ones to manhole-iron models that you can't puncture with hammer and nail, and, especially, in between, tires that are (1) actually usable in goathead country and (2) yet still have decent riding qualities -- in particular, the BA and the Kojak. The Big Apple would actually ride through goathead patches and come out with scores of thorns in the tread; scrape them off and Bob's your uncle. The Kojak, on pavement, resisted thorns to fewer than 5 flats a week -- remarkable compared to say the 559 X 32 non TG Pasela. (5 flats a week: I'm not exaggerating for effect; when I first installed the original "clincher tubular" Parigi Roubaix on my Ram, I got -- this is literal description -- 5 flats within less than 10 miles, all thorns; and used up -- ditto -- 50 or more patches in the first week. Stan's made them viable.)

But man! For a tire that is fully as phat and plump and erotically soft and round as a Big Apple at 16/19, the Big One -- the no-holds-barred light model -- is a joy to behold and to ride. Four hundred and less than 50 effing grams!!! Even the "Liteskin" Big Apple weighed 800, and the regular was 90-0. And with a carcase that wears like a normal tire! When I removed the rear Furious Fred to install the Big Ones, the FF had 2904 miles on it, the little center-tread nubbins were still raised above the carcase, so that I guess 500 more trouble free miles were in it, and this tire, weighed on a mail scale, was 360 grams. Really amazing.

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