Quickbeam chainline w/ PW freewheel?

[Wally Estrella]

Hi Folks:

I've seen numerous pictures of QBs with Phil Wood hubs on them, but can't recall if it was fixed or freewheel.  From what I understand the fixed side of the PW track hub is 42.  The freewheel hub is 46.

Is 46 chainline on a QB an issue from dropout to BB/chain stay clearances?  I'm using a single ring up front @ 40t ring and thinking of upping it to a 44 w/ a new PW freewheel on the rear.

Thanks,

Wally

[Deacon Patrick]

My QB has a Phil freewheel flip hub and the chain line works perfectly. I can't speak to the metrics and if they match what you mentioned or not.

With abandon,

Patrick

[ted]

Hey Wally,

Im not clear on what you are concerned about, and my bike is a SO instead of a QB, but I've got a 44t ring at ~42mm chain line on a short (107?) PW bottom bracket. No problem with clearance, if that helps at all.

[Wally Estrella]

HI Ted:

the chainline on the QB is 42, from what I've read, the chain line on a PW freewheel track hub is 46.  So, yeah, I guess that's what I'm confusingly asking.  Would there be any clearance issues w/ a 46 chain line and going up larger on either the chain ring or cog as? Sorry, just overthinking the simplicity of it. Sounds like it'll work just fine, so I'll just do it.

Thanks!

[iamkeith]

Wally,

If I understand your question correctly, you're thinking about moving the chain outward to match the chainline of the Phil hub, by using a front chainring in the outer position instead of the middle position that Quickbeams used orginally?  That 'might' work fine, but it's not the easiest way to solve this.  Forgive me if I'm over-stating the obvious, but think about it this way:

The bike itself has no inherent chainline.   The chainline is determined by the position of the cog on the rear hub, assuming that can't be adjusted.   So you want to match that chainline by moving the chainring laterally as necessary, until it's the same or close to that of the hub.  The EASIEST and cheapest way to do this is to get a different bottom bracket.   Going longer, which it sounds like you need, won't cause any clearance issues between chainring or crank arm and chainstay, but going the other way sometimes can.

So for instance: If you currently have a 110mm bb and a 42mm chainline at the middle chainring position, and want to achieve a 46mm chainline, then just get a 118mm bb or whatever is close. Both crank arms are just moved outward by 4mm, and then you could keep the chainguard.  

If you got a Phil bb (though that wouldn't be the "cheapest" any more - especially if you have to buy the proprietary tools, too), you can then even micro-adjust to make the chainline 100% perfect - though a mm one way or the other really shouldn't be an issue.

[Eric Norris]

If you’re running a road (multi speed) chain on your QB, this is all moot anyway. Road chains are designed to work at a variety of angles as you shift from on cog to another and one chainring to another.

There is perhaps a theoretical increase in efficiency from having a chain running perfectly straight, but I don’t have the time or energy to worry about that on my bikes.

--Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
@Campyonlyguy

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Wally Estrella]

A buddy will be giving me a very nice condition Sugino 75 track crankset.  Being tempted w/ this I might as well upgrade other items on the drive train a get a Phil hub.  With that a Phil BB would be ordered to get the adjustment to keep the 1/8" chain straight to somewhat straight.

[Ian A]

On a single speed, would a 4mm offset cause a greater tendancy to derail? On my my SS set up (vertical drop outs) I used a cassette hub and adjusted the spacers on the hub until the chain didn't want to derail itself. It is a multispeed chain and there's a Surly tensioner, but even with the tensioner, a few mm made a big difference in whether the chain stayed seated.

IanA/Canada

[Eric Norris]

The only problems I have every had with chains coming off on a SS or fixed gear bicycle happened when using a multi-speed cog. In retrospect, I should have realized that multi-speed cogs are *designed* to derail. SS/fixed cogs have taller teeth that lack ramps, all of which helps keep the chain in place.

Use a fixed/singlespeed cog, properly tension the chain (not as much of a problem with SS), and you’ll be fine.

--Eric N
campyo...@me.com
www.CampyOnly.com
Campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
@Campyonlyguy

On Feb 22, 2017, at 3:28 PM, Ian A <atte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On a single speed, would a 4mm offset cause a greater tendancy to derail? On my my SS set up (vertical drop outs) I used a cassette hub and adjusted the spacers on the hub until the chain didn't want to derail itself. It is a multispeed chain and there's a Surly tensioner, but even with the tensioner, a few mm made a big difference in whether the chain stayed seated.

IanA/Canada

[Patrick Moore]

The cog-to-cog distance, center of cogs, for 10 speed is 4 mm (3.95 mm), so I think that even with a flexible chain, but with a single speed cog, you'd be fine, unless perhaps the chain was very loose. Even the cog center to cog center distance for a "typical 5 speed", per Sheldon, is only 5.5 mm.

FWIW, from time to time I've run Hyperglide cogs ss without paying much attention to chain line, and I never had one derail.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2017 at 4:28 PM, Ian A <atte...@gmail.com> wrote:

On a single speed, would a 4mm offset cause a greater tendancy to derail? On my my SS set up (vertical drop outs) I used a cassette hub and adjusted the spacers on the hub until the chain didn't want to derail itself. It is a multispeed chain and there's a Surly tensioner, but even with the tensioner, a few mm made a big difference in whether the chain stayed seated.

IanA/Canada

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

--

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.

By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.

Other professional writing services.

http://www.resumespecialties.com/

www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

****************************************************************************************

The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities revolve. Chuang Tzu

Stat crux dum volvitur orbis. (The cross stands motionless while the world revolves.) Carthusian motto

It is we who change; He remains the same. Eckhart

Kinei hos eromenon. (It moves [all things] as the beloved.) Aristotle

[ted]

Wally,

You said your friend is supplying a sugino 75 crankset, and mentioned 1/8" chain.

Though regular road chains, rings and cogs are fairly forgiving with respect to chain line (as others have noted), 1/8" track stuff can be more finicky. I have an 1/8" sugino ring and a 1/8" euro asia cog on my SO. I found I needed to have them lined up really well for things to run smoothly. I ended up getting a PW bottom bracket so I could easily fine tune the crank offset to match the cog (note: you really really want two of those lock ring tools to install a PW bottom bracket).

That said i don't think any freewheels use 1/8" inch cogs so I'm guessing you are going to have a road width cog and that should be more forgiving. You could also pick up a road width chainring and just avoid any 1/8" stuff.

Since that sugino 75 crank may not sit on the bottom bracket at the same offset as your current crank, you may want to mount it on your current bottom bracket and see how things line up (or don't) before picking a length for a new PW bottom bracket.

Since you are thinking of moving things further from the center line, you aren't going to have clearance problems at the crank end. Take a quick look at the rear wheel and make sure you have a bit more than an 1/8" clearance (1/8" is ~3mm) between the chain and the seat stay. I suspect you will be fine there too.

[Jeremy Till]

Hey Wally-

Can I ask where you read that the chainline on the Phil hub was 42mm on the fixed side and 46mm on the freewheel side?  I've been working on flip-flop hubs for a long time, I even had Phil one for a while (not on the QB, on my erstwhile Salsa Casseroll), and I've never heard that before.  To my knowledge, Phil has only ever made their track hubs for a standard 42mm chainline.  

If I remember correctly, Paul made their track hubs with a slightly-wider-than-normal 44mm chainline and the chainline on the White Industries ENO hubs was around 47mm.  

Since a flip-flop hub is designed to allow swapping between cogs/FW on either side without changing anything else, it would be really weird to have one where the chainlines didn't line up.   I could certainly imagine that when all was said and done and you measured chainline with a fixed cog and freewheel installed that they weren't dead on the same, but I'd have a hard time imagining that they would be far enough off to cause issues or clearance problems like you're asking about.  

I believe that our fearless list moderator, Mr. Cyclofiend Jim, runs a Phil hub on the back of his QB, so he might be a good guy to ask.  

-Jeremy

[Matt B.]

As Eric pointed out, for singlespeed cogs 4mm of offset is not an issue. There've been zero problems using a White Ind Dos Eno (dual) 16/19 cog (not technically singlespeed but same tooth profile), on my QB for several years, using either chain ring on the stock crank. 

[Wally Estrella]

The 46 was given to me by Phil Wood sales staff.  I've seen it somewhere also, let me see if I can dig that up....

Yes, the Paul hubs are @ 44.  I'm not sure about WI.

[Jeremy Till]

Wow!  Color me surprised if that really is the case that the FW side is 46mm chainline.  Also, it's a real bummer that Phil doesn't list this info on their website.

[Philip Williamson]

Amen. I run 9sp chains across all bikes except the 8sp bike, which is doomed. 

In 15 odd years of fixed gear riding, "Sure that looks okay" has been fine. The few times I've ended up with 1/8" gear, I've killed it with fire. That's like running DOS in a production environment. My Phil singlespeed mountainbike wheels are also trouble-free with a "yeah, that looks fine" chainline. 

YMMV: I don't use a gram scale to measure my coffee, either.

 

Philip

www.biketinker.com

[Wally Estrella]

An update, of sorts, I think and hope ;)

I finally and recently received a PW built rear wheel w/ a double freewheel on it.  The chainline seems just fine.  I didn't check dimensions on it, but looks fine.  I must've been more worried about the numbers than operation of it, thus posted the original question in ignorance and hint of stupidity.