All American Roadeo

[Dave Rivbike]

Gestating the idea of an All American Roadeo.
Is it possible?
Would have gone with say an Atlantis, but I think the MUSA quill stem
doesn't exist.

Roadeo Frame
White Industries Crank
Phil BB, Spokes & Hubs
Chris King Headset
Paul Brakes
Thomson threadless stem, seatpost
Thomson even makes bolts

Here's the sticky stuff:

Chain, Cassette, Tires, Cabling, Shifters, Brake Levers, Rims,
Handlebars

Not sure if Bontrager stuff is all MUSA or not anymore, but they do
rims (complete wheels), handlebars, tires, saddles, bottle cages
Phil and White both make a single speed cogs but no cassettes...
Paul makes brake levers, but not for drops

Is it possible?
Any ideas for those last bits?
Is Bontrager MUSA?
Am I missing some great MUSA manufacturer?

I know of a custom knifemaker who machines his own cassettes, but to
buy one would probably be $999 or so.

More questions than answers. A monumental invoice total I'm sure, but
primo stuff.

[Seth Vidal]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2011 at 12:48 PM, Dave Rivbike <da...@rivbike.com> wrote:
> Gestating the idea of an All American Roadeo.
> Is it possible?

I went through this when I was trying to get parts together for my AHH.

>
> Chain, Cassette, Tires, Cabling, Shifters, Brake Levers, Rims,
> Handlebars

RIMS: aiui velocity is moving production to florida soon(tm) - might
want to look into that.

Cassette - american classics - are they made here?

-sv

[Jim Mather]

I've seen people attempt this before. I think the big stumbling block are the derailers. Unless you go back to '90's CNC derailers like Paul, White, Joe's, Precision, or the Excel/Elgin line, you won't find anything. SRAM is based in USA, but I bet everything is made in Taiwan.

good luck,

jim m

wc ca

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[William]

derailers are a tough one as well.  You have communication with Paul, and I'm sure he still has the CNC files for his derailers.  

Is Gore cabling MUSA?

[William]

Paul Brakes come with koolstop pads and hardware which I imagine might not be 100% MUSA.  Also the hanger has historically been a generic one, and I imagine still is.  All the bolts, also, Paul doesn't make.  

[Joe Bernard]

My Waterford AHH has a Precision Billet Proshift rear derailer. No luck finding the front derailer and twist shifters yet. If I got that far, the next step would be Paul centerpulls. You're right, this could become obscenely expensive!

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[Michael Hechmer]

I think this is a laudable goal and my Ram and tandem share it.  But you do have to decide how much you are willing to sacrifice and whether it is really worth being a purist.

I like Cane Creek, both as products and a company.  They have mfg both on and off shore but without asking them directly it is hard to know where parts come from without asking.  I have a 1" headset from them that is great, as are there brake levers,  tandem levers, and thudbuster seat post, which my stoker really likes..

I also have an older American Classic seat post, which is light and strong, but i gather they have discontinued the silver version.  

On the other hand I use German made Wipperman Connex chains exclusively.  And have to admit my new Shimano 6700 RD is the best shifting derailleur I have owned in 30 years of cycling.

Thanks for starting this thread.

michael

[Joe Bernard]

Hey, I probably have the only Rivendell with an American derailer! That's cool.

[David Yu Greenblatt]

The project will be easier if you run a fixed-gear or single-speed drivetrain. Plus you may gain souplesse and/or cred among the patrons of Zeitgeist SF. Then again you might just end up soup-less.

 

Until recently much of the high-end Bontrager carbon fiber stuff (including handlebars, stems, and seatposts) was Made in Wisconsin. Probably no longer though. Other than prototypes their saddles were never MIW or MUSA. Perhaps Selle San An-Atomica can supply a MUSA saddle for you. Or just securely lash a MUSA sirloin steak to the top of your MUSA Thomson or Paul seatpost with MUSA hemp twine before every ride, and grill and eat it afterwards (low carbs).  

 

MUSA chain: None are currently in production, as far as I know. A NOS Viking Titanium chain would be a true eBay score. Are Gates Carbon Drive components MUSA? Maybe some of the metal sprockets are, but I doubt the belt is. Try rigging a drive belt out of that handy roll of MUSA hemp twine. And if that fails, soothe yourself by smoking some Humbolt County... tobacco.

 

MUSA tires: Another big problem. Build a greenhouse and grow your own Para rubber trees and make some tires. May cause significant delay in your project timeline. In the meantime you can shoulder your MUSA frameset cyclocross-style and run around waving an American Flag (just confirm that it is not Made in China).

 

Good luck,

 

David G, Madison WI

[Greg J]

Not to rain on your parade, but my guess is that at least the dropouts and the lugs are made in Taiwan, so you're already in the realm of "assembled in the US."

Of course, you have to draw the line somewhere, and yours is a perfectly reasonable one.  

My impression is that American Classic has been sourcing at least some of its products from Asia for about 10 years now.  I don't think post-Trek Bontrager is MUSA.  

[Seth Vidal]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2011 at 3:56 PM, David Yu Greenblatt
<david.yu....@gmail.com> wrote:
> The project will be easier if you run a fixed-gear or single-speed
> drivetrain. Plus you may gain souplesse and/or cred among the patrons of
> Zeitgeist SF. Then again you might just end up soup-less.
>
> Until recently much of the high-end Bontrager carbon fiber stuff (including
> handlebars, stems, and seatposts) was Made in Wisconsin. Probably no longer
> though. Other than prototypes their saddles were never MIW or MUSA. Perhaps
> Selle San An-Atomica can supply a MUSA saddle for you. Or just securely lash
> a MUSA sirloin steak to the top of your MUSA Thomson or Paul seatpost with
> MUSA hemp twine before every ride, and grill and eat it afterwards (low
> carbs).
>
> MUSA chain: None are currently in production, as far as I know. A NOS Viking
> Titanium chain would be a true eBay score. Are Gates Carbon Drive components
> MUSA? Maybe some of the metal sprockets are, but I doubt the belt is. Try
> rigging a drive belt out of that handy roll of MUSA hemp twine. And if that
> fails, soothe yourself by smoking some Humbolt County... tobacco.
>
> MUSA tires: Another big problem. Build a greenhouse and grow your own Para
> rubber trees and make some tires. May cause significant delay in your
> project timeline. In the meantime you can shoulder your MUSA frameset
> cyclocross-style and run around waving an American Flag (just confirm that
> it is not Made in China).
>

David,
I don't think your snide reply was necessary or really warranted.

please don't be that way.
-sv

[newenglandbike]

It would be cool to see Paul, or any of the other US makes for that matter, making derailleurs again.    I'm sure they'd make your wallet ache something fierce but dang it would be cool.     I think it will happen someday.

[Michael Hechmer]

I've been enjoying this discussion, and have tried, unsuccessfully, 3x to join it.  I'm a big supporter of buy local in all parts of my life and my bikes are mostly fitted with PW BB; White hubs & cranks, Paul's brakes, Cane Creek levers, HS (a great 1"HS BTW), thudbuster and a nice vintage American Classic seatpost.   I'm not a purist and doubt anyone is going to make a derailler better than the new RD 6700 from Shimano or Wipperman Conex chains.  BTW I think tange tubing is made here but it is counterproductive to force a builder to use a certain tube set mfg.

michael

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I was bidding briefly on a set of Paul Rasta-colored derailleurs on eBay (because every soon to be 59 year old needs a set of Rasta derailleurs!), but it quickly got way too expensive for me.  The final price was well over $1000, IIRC.

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[Joe Bernard]

Those rasta mechs are crazy-money. My NIB Proshift was listed at 500, but I ended up doing the deal with the seller locally for 250. It's black, not my first choice, but it looks good on my light green AHH. The other colors probably would have sold for more; I'd love to find a silver one.

[Kevin M]

I'm not sure how buying NIB or NOS items off ebay actually helps US manufacturers.

[newenglandbike]

It seems the point is to buy from extant US manufacturers when possible, but to try to find vintage US-made stuff otherwise.

[Joe Bernard]

I think Kevin knew that, but thought it would be awesome to make a wisecrack.

[EricP]

There is a Paul front derailleur on eBay right now - http://tinyurl.com/7t6qqph
Part of the clamp is missing. No affiliation with the seller.

Have also tossed around the idea a few times of a U.S. sourced bike.
Never have followed up on it. Do have US parts, but nothing cohesive.

For handlebars - there are the Jones Loop bars. However, one would
need a threadless stem. Finding a quill to threadless adapter made in
the States might be possible. Have never looked.

For quill stems - American Bicycle Manufacturing used to have a US
made quill stem. Had one of the prototypes from Joe Breeze. Lost it
many years ago. They still show up on eBay and local bike shops
occasionally.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

[DustyMerkin]

I don't think anything is really 100% made in the USA, most stuff is imported and then assembled here.  I think it is awesome to buy MUSA though, even if they are assembling the stuff it still creates jobs.

[Joe Bernard]

The OP merely inquired if it was possible to assemble an all-USA bike. Divergences into supporting current US manufacturers, and determining the source of materials that go into a MUSA product, are pretty far beyond his question.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I dunno, Joe. If we're going to make a special to effort to buy MUSA, then maybe it's important to define what MUSA actually means. Otherwise it's an empty feel-good term. If vintage parts, no longer made, are acceptable, why not just cut to the chase and buy an old Schwinn ballooner, in its MUSA entirety, from a yard sale? I once had a Toyota that was made by Americans (I assume) in Indiana. When I say "made", I mean final assembly. The components most likely were made somewhere else. By that definition, any bicycle assembled at RBW in Walnut Creek, or by my shop in Minneapolis, is MUSA. Is it better ir worse than a good MUSA Ford, assembled in Mexico? Paul and Phil and White and the other boutique brands left in USA use aluminum, which almost certainly is non-MUSA, since the US lacks that resource. Riv frames use Taiwanese lugs and a mix of different tubing. Paint and decals? Who knows! What if Taiwanese Maxway used American-sourced frame components, but Waterford used Taiwanese-sourced frame components? Which, if either, is MUSA?

My point with all this is not to be snarky or ooutside the scope of the discussion, but to illustrate that the MUSA vs non-MUSA distinction ain't as simple as it maybe was 40ish years ago when "cheap imports" (cars, at first) came into the American consciousness.

My opinion: you buy what you feel good about buying, and hope the guy you bought it from doesn't do something disagreeable with the money that was formerly yours!

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I would also like to point out that there are several middle-men to muddy the waters about MUSA. Say you have a Surly or Taiwan-made Hillborne frame (both manufactured by the same outfit, I think). Both Surly and Rivendell are American brands. Their headquarters are here. Their idea and design and marketing and distribution and customer service personnel are here. If you buy either through your LBS, yet another MUSA hand is leaving fingerprints (and making a couple bucks) on your "Taiwanese" frame. The country of manufacture almost seems like an arbitrary detail of the frame's life!

[Peter Pesce]

Overall I think this a fun thought exercise, but it's really easy to go through the looking glass in pursuit of it.
As noted, the aluminum in a Paul's component, isn't MUSA, nor is probably the steel, rubber, plastic, etc in any other part. But of course raw meterials are only a small part of the equation.
It seems that a large component of the MUSA goal is to keep the majority of the financial benefit in the USA. If so, you'd want to focus on the highest value added parts of the process being MUSA, and of course you'd want to pay the highest price through as many middle-men as possible to distribute that benefit.

-Pete
(Single Sixty Sidepull Sam)

[salsola]

DT Swiss, I believe, makes (assembles?) some of their rims/hubs/spokes/
wheels in Grand Junction, CO.

[Dave Rivbike]

I'm aware of the overseas nature of the lugs themselves, figured
someone would point that out.
Even if you pounded out the lugs here, who knows where the steel came
from right?
I realized the great lengths you'd have to go to to be totally pure
USA, but the thread has been useful so far.
I learned of a few things I didn't know about.
Guess that's just the way it is these days, you'll get an overseas pad
on your US brake, overseas rails on your saddle, etc..

[Matthew J]

Maybe if Tony Pereira could be convinced to make you one of those
swell lever front derailleurs you see on some of his bikes.

There are a few U.S. builders who make quill stems. Be ready for a
long wait though. I ordered one in April and still do not have mine.

[Leslie]

Along these lines, just found a post on Guitar-Ted's page about bicycles and MUSA....

http://www.g-tedproductions.blogspot.com/2011/12/friday-news-and-views_23.html

[William Pustow]

I'm thinking of ordering a bamboo Calfee. The bike is built in the US. I know the bamboo is imported but, by the fact that it is only grown overseas and not actually manufactured, would that be OK?
Bill
Louisville, Ky

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[William]

<sarcastic subroutine INITIATE>

If you were to pay retail for all the MUSA parts, and then pay an American citizen to steal the non-MUSA parts, then you be camped out on the true moral highground.  What a view from up there!

<sarcastic subroutine TERMINATE>

[William]

Renovo hardwood bikes use imported hardwoods as well.  When I worked at a Kestrel dealer in the early 90s the rep told us they got their carbon from American corn!  If there's one thing we have in plentitude it's American corn.