Leo Roadini, Mustachioed & More

[Chester]

Recently bought Ed C's Roadini and have been riding it as much as I can. I asked him a few geo questions and he warned me that the stem (5cm) would probably be short for me and he's right in that I find riding the tops of the Nitto Noodles a little cramped.

As I think about changing stem and/or bars, I end up in a chain reaction of additional changes that I think are basically about me wanting to make this Roadini more "gravel"-ish than roadish. On one hand, I have been intending to build out a Homer when they come in later this summer, but on the other hand, I just bought this Roadini, just bought a Clem L for my wife (that I ride more than she does), and just stumbled on and bought a Bridgestone RB-1 at the end of last year. So I feel like I should not buy more bikes to "save money"...and blow it all on new parts.

Anyway, so this is where the somewhat cramped cockpit of what was Ed's Roadini takes me. Typing this out to get my thoughts down for myself to better sort them out, and also because I do have some questions below, and if anyone is kind enough to offer thoughts on what I'm thinking, I'd appreciate it.

Handlebars: Mustache

I could swap in a longer stem for a better fit but the Noodles are 46cm and are narrower than what I'd want. And I almost never ride in the drops or hooks of drop bars anyway. So thinking that a Mustache would be pretty perfect. What I'm used to on road type geometry and drop bars is a drop bar top that is about 4-6cm more forward. So I think the forward curves of the Nitto Mustache would be between what I'm used to as drop bar tops and hoods positions. 

I looked a lot at other bars and there are some dirt drop sort of bars I'd like to try, but they're not 26/25.4 clamp size. 

Brake Levers: Non-Aero?

Ed put on aero Shimano levers and these will work fine. I've ridden a couple bikes with mustache bars with aero brake levers and it's what I'm used to but I'm thinking non-aero levers will make for less compromised brake cable routing. But I'm also wondering/worried that this "better" cable routing will conflict with using a handlebar bag. I suppose a lot depends on exactly where along the front curves the levers are mounted.

Shifting: Downtube or Bar-Con or Thumbies?

Current setup is Silver1 levers on the downtube. It's fine and I've come to re-acquire appreciation for the zen of shifting less, which came back quickly, since I've ridden singlespeed or fixed rigs as townies a lot. But I feel like bar-cons are still a nice compromise in being more conveniently placed while still not totally optimally placed. And I was thinking about thumbies instead, since bar-cons are a bit of a pain when trying to trackstand at lights, and thumbies might be really nice to have in natural spot when riding with hands on ends of the mustache bars.

And if I'm going to re-do brake cabling I'll probably switch the housing to do a different accent color and if I do that then I might as well do shifting cables the same too. Or, I might as well do this while also trying out a different shift lever position. I've never ridden with bar-cons and the last time I used thumbies, it was with above-bar thumbies on a Bridgestone MB-5, almost 30 years ago.

I'm think I'm thinking that converting the Silver1's to thumbies mounted where they'd be mounted for primary grip position on a townie/fully swept back bar makes the most sense, even though the orthodox thing to do is to go bar-con (or downtube). I have seen a picture of someone with a mustache setup with thumbies...along the inboard of the forward curves and that is sort of intriguing but looks weird and, somehow, ugly. I think bar-con would look nicer than thumbies inside standard end grip position, and downtube looks even better, but I can picture it being nice to have rear shifting accessible from a grip position, such as when starting off from a dead stop at red lights.

Tires: Wider than 32-35mm? Tubeless?
Brake Calipers: Centerpull or Longer Reach?

Feels like if I'm going to switch handlebars and no matter what will re-do brake cabling, then it will also be the time to consider changing the brake calipers for more tire clearance. It has mid-reach Shimano BR-R451 which its specs say accommodate up to 32mm tires and Ed thinks might take up to 35mm. I wouldn't even swap out the 32mm Herse Stampede Passes on the bike, but am considering swapping tires and calipers if I can go from 32mm to 40mm or even 38mm.

I don't even know how much tire clearance the Roadini has. I did some searching and it seems last year's Roadini had clearance increased to 42mm? Ed's was I think the 2017 and I haven't found any statement on the frame's tire clearance.

I first thought about the Dia-Compe GC610 calipers for clearance and for looks but I don't know if I want to fiddle with centerpull cabling. I've never ridden with long-reach sidepulls and so I don't know how much I should be concerned about long-reach stopping power.

But along with wanting to go wider than 32mm I also have been thinking about going tubeless since this has Velocity A23 wheels and they're tubeless compatible. In my case, going tubeless would be for reducing flats due to road debris and not to run much lower pressures off-road.

Anyway, if I go tubeless I feel like I might as well try wider tires too and, if so, then need to change brake calipers.

What This Roadini'd Be For / Other Bikes

I guess I should've started with this. I would be riding this Roadini overwhelmingly on pavement, with some gravelish and non-technical dirt here and there. Most frequently commuting, but hopefully longer and longer paved rides as I work that back into my diet, after having all but given up road riding since I had kids. I definitely don't need wider than 32mm but want to see how wide I can go on roadish geometry while still keeping spirited roadish feel. 

And to get some more separation between the Roadini and my RB-1, which I'm keeping stock other than the tires and saddle. Making the Roadini more gravelish or all-roadish will make me feel better about keeping both of these bikes. It also helps me resist buying a Homer at least this year. While also giving me more experience with stuff that would help me dial in the build spec for a future Homer.

I live in the South Bay area of the San Francisco Bay Area and there isn't a ton of what I think of as ideal country bike or hillibike riding. Off-road riding tends to feature a fair amount to a ton of climbing. I don't have stuff within short distance of my front door and I also have a modern hardtail that I think is probably more fun to ride most of the dirt near where I live.

Maybe I find that I can build the Roadini to be pretty much exactly what I want to have in between old-school road race geo, and XC MTB.

[Garth]

I have a set of Albastache I wanted to try on either my Franklin bike or the Bombadil and I would set them up the same way I have then set up now with bar end brake levers and thumbshifters mounted just around the inside of the curve. If not there then I'd go DT shifters as my Sun Tour thumbshifters are all 22.2 so I'd have to but some Dia Compe ones likely, as overpriced as they are. There's also the DC stem mounted shifters that are adjustable in cable angle.

Especially on a road bike I find 33'ish the sweet spot max.  More doesn't add as much as it detracts in steering feel. I ride my 33mm (actual) Schwalbe Marathon Racers at no more than 40psi when I pump them and by the time I go to pump them again they're more like 35-37. That's on the road, I could go lower for worse surfaces.

I find categorizing a bike only leads to the tail wagging the dog syndrome as you end up chasing some elusive image of what the term may or may not mean. All those categorical buzzwords have no Universal meaning other than their spelling of the words. It's just a bike, regardless of the parts on it !  

Here's what I mean for the bar setup. My hands are never near the ends, always at the foremost straight with my thumbs inside the curve. Shifting is a breeze. The brake levers are easy to reach with a pinkie or two fingers. Reversed the levers are easier to activate than the the other way around. I always hated regular mtb levers as I thought they were designed backwards.

[Chester]

That looks cool and your description totally makes sense. It's similar to a setup that VO shows to illustrate its Porteur bar:

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/2196/9775/files/Screen_Shot_2019-11-18_at_8.37.45_PM.png?v=1574127482

This was the thumbies on inside curve of mustache setup I was referring to:

https://static.flickr.com/24/43564690_1e3b848451.jpg?v=0

Intriguing but beyond aesthetics I wonder about clearance for a handlebar bag with another pair of cables in the mix in that area.

I had thought about other bars and also using reverse levers on various bars. I'm thinking Mustache in particular because I think it will be ideal with the short stem I have now and so can avoid needing to buy another stem. And since the forward position on the front of the curves is what I think would be the preferred (and fastest) position, I feel like the conventional placement of levers there makes most sense. 

I'll try dropping PSI down to 40 or below before I try wider tires. I've been more in the 55 to 60 range. I am concerned about wider being more sluggish. I don't have much basis for comparison with wider tires, and only with very different geometry. The Clem L with 45mm and various MTBs with wider. 

[DavidP]

I recently built up a roadie Pescadero with Diacompe GC610s, 33mm tires and fenders. Using centerpulls on the Roadini would just require adding cable hangers at the headset and seat binder.

I'm at 50 PSI on Soma Supple Vitesse SL 33s - the sidewalls on these are comparable to Rene Herse Extra Lights. I might be able to go a bit lower but the sidewall deflection on the rear looks about right where it is and they are riding very nicely.

If switching from drops I'd be tempted to try an Albastache over a Mustache. If the stem feels short with a drop bar it's probably about right for a 'stache. I think these bars look best with non-aero levers, but Garth's inverse levers are intriguing too.

As for max'ing out tires, Piaw is running 38s on his Roadini: https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/77-YZzm-Edk/m/rbDytYzDAAAJ

[Piaw Na]

If the bike came with mid-reach Shimano brakes you're unlikely to get anything wider than 38mm in clearance no matter what brakes you run.  It's also unlikely that centerpull calipers will provide appreciably more stopping power than the Shimano dual pivot calipers which already have plenty of stopping power, though you might get more a little more tire clearance.

It's hilarious that you think the South Bay isn't ideal country for hillibike riding --- there are lots of combination rides that minimize climbing off pavement --- for instance, you could climb Montebello road and descend Stevens Canyon fire trail. Or climb Highway 9 and use all the dirt connectors from Saratoga gap to Russian Ridge OSP and descend Crazy Pete's and Dirt Alpine (or Stevens Canyon).  I wouldn't hesitate to take my Roadini to El Corte Madera Creek preserve either --- a little bit of walking never killed anyone. I've ridden all over the world and for year-round day riding it's really difficult to beat the Bay Area or even come close.

[Piaw Na]

As for max'ing out tires, Piaw is running 38s on his Roadini: https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/77-YZzm-Edk/m/rbDytYzDAAAJ

My Roadini is from 2022, not 2017. Grant's been increasing the brake reach and the 2022 no longer uses mid-reach caliper brakes.

[Piaw Na]

OK, I found the specs for the 2017 Roadini: https://rivbike.tumblr.com/post/173252562647/note-this-unearthed-blug-was-supposed-to-appear#:~:text=The%20same%20tire%20clearances%20%E2%80%94up,more%20stable%2C%20but%20still%20zippy.

35mm without fenders, 28mm with.

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Albastache are undeniably great bars, but for my (less) money, Soma 3 speed 2’s are the greatest mustache on the planet. They’re fairly wide at 54cm, and they take “normal” brake levers, which I don’t get scared I’m going to catch on some underbrush with. And my thumbies fit anywhere, so I don’t have to run 26mm Paul’s on the sleeve, or have a good pile of vintage band clampers around…

https://www.somafab.com/archives/product/moustache-ii-bar

Have them on my Rambouillet, currently set in the sloped up way with a 15cm stem. 

Happy Rolling

-Kai

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

First, with Albastache, then the Soma bars with a dirt drop. No photos of the newest configuration. Prefer the cafe racer look of the upjut stem to lower bar, but I gotta try stuff out.

-Kai

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

And faceplater stem..

[Chester]

DavidP wrote:

If switching from drops I'd be tempted to try an Albastache over a Mustache. If the stem feels short with a drop bar it's probably about right for a 'stache.

I totally was/am tempted by the Albastache. I'm leaning Mustache because the Albastache ends seem to come back maybe 1-2" further back than the Mustache ends. And if I do barcon shifting then it'll be good to have more rearward clearance for stoplight trackstands. I also think because the stem is short for me, it's probably better to have the slightly more drop that the Mustache has compared to the Albastache at or near the bar ends. And I don't know but I hope that the forward curves will be perfect reach for me with a 5cm stem. Should be a little shorter reach than what I'm used to when riding hoods on drop bars on bikes with longer stems, and a little longer than the tops riding reach I'm used to. Think there's a good chance it's just about perfect to be the most comfortable and most aero position. 

 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

If the bike came with mid-reach Shimano brakes you're unlikely to get anything wider than 38mm in clearance no matter what brakes you run.  It's also unlikely that centerpull calipers will provide appreciably more stopping power than the Shimano dual pivot calipers which already have plenty of stopping power, though you might get more a little more tire clearance.

I haven't felt any anxiety over stopping power of them. I haven't done any fast descents, but I have on another bike with mid-reach Ultregra calipers. I don't have any personal reason to worry about long-reach but came across threads in which people were bemoaning reduced stopping power specifically when going from mid-reach to long-reach or going with long-reach instead of centerpull. So that spooked me a little but maybe I should just ignore that.

Thanks so much for the link to the Tumblr page for the 2017 version of the Roadini. Sorta jibes with what Ed told me. He said I might be able to get 35mm in there with the sidepulls. But I guess that text from Grant was presuming use of their complete stock build's mid-reach sidepulls? Because Ed said he fitted 38mm tires (Panaracer Pasela PT) into this 2017 frame, when he had DC-610 calipers in there. He also seemed to feel like there is room in the frame for more than 38mm with centerpulls and I read in your 1000 mile review that you got 40mm in yours. I don't know if I'm reading/guessing wrong but it seems that the Roadini's frame clearance hasn't changed, but the stock complete brake spec has.

But, in any case, appreciate the confirmation that I need to switch to centerpull to get beyond 35mm. I'll just chill out on all the possible changes and get Ed's money's worth out of the 32mm Stampede Passes. Wait until I wear them out and then try out 35mm and maybe tubeless.

pi...@gmail.com wrote:

If the bike came with mid-reach Shimano brakes you're unlikely to get anything wider than 38mm in clearance no matter what brakes you run.  It's also unlikely that centerpull calipers will provide appreciably more stopping power than the Shimano dual pivot calipers which already have plenty of stopping power, though you might get more a little more tire clearance.

It's hilarious that you think the South Bay isn't ideal country for hillibike riding --- there are lots of combination rides that minimize climbing off pavement --- for instance, you could climb Montebello road and descend Stevens Canyon fire trail. Or climb Highway 9 and use all the dirt connectors from Saratoga gap to Russian Ridge OSP and descend Crazy Pete's and Dirt Alpine (or Stevens Canyon).  I wouldn't hesitate to take my Roadini to El Corte Madera Creek preserve either --- a little bit of walking never killed anyone. I've ridden all over the world and for year-round day riding it's really difficult to beat the Bay Area or even come close.

What I had in mind when I was thinking of some platonic "ideal" is living amidst country gravel roads, and maybe with more gentle rolling terrain. Not dogging on what we have here. I've appreciated reading your blog entries and I've been working back up to the fitness to explore and ride routes and spots you're describing. A Montebello variant is way up the list. Frankly, I'm also working my way out of paranoia after giving up extended road riding when I became a father.

Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY wrote:

Albastache are undeniably great bars, but for my (less) money, Soma 3 speed 2’s are the greatest mustache on the planet.

Looked at those, too. Liked how the center section between the forward bends is a bit wider. But still stuck with leaning Nitto because the Soma bar ends seem to come back about 10cm further and the Nittos already will give me clearance issues with bar-cons...with the short 5cm existing stem.

The Ergon grips you have on with the Dirt Drops are GC1 not GP1, right? I've been wondering about how these would feel on a straight-ish swept back bar end and it's nice to see someone with one on ends like this. 

I guess I should prepare myself to not want to ride the forward bends and to give into getting a longer stem and riding the bar ends like swept back city bars and maybe just use the bends for stretches when I'm not much worried about braking fast.

[Piaw Na]

Thanks so much for the link to the Tumblr page for the 2017 version of the Roadini. Sorta jibes with what Ed told me. He said I might be able to get 35mm in there with the sidepulls. But I guess that text from Grant was presuming use of their complete stock build's mid-reach sidepulls? Because Ed said he fitted 38mm tires (Panaracer Pasela PT) into this 2017 frame, when he had DC-610 calipers in there. He also seemed to feel like there is room in the frame for more than 38mm with centerpulls and I read in your 1000 mile review that you got 40mm in yours. I don't know if I'm reading/guessing wrong but it seems that the Roadini's frame clearance hasn't changed, but the stock complete brake spec has.

I suspect the brake bridge got moved in the later model of frames. In any case, the mid-reach Shimano brakes have very good clearance. Check out the pictures here: https://blackmtncycles.com/clearance-pt-ii-road-frames/. While centerpulls have even better clearance, I don't think 3mm is worth spending the money on.

 

What I had in mind when I was thinking of some platonic "ideal" is living amidst country gravel roads, and maybe with more gentle rolling terrain. Not dogging on what we have here. I've appreciated reading your blog entries and I've been working back up to the fitness to explore and ride routes and spots you're describing. A Montebello variant is way up the list. Frankly, I'm also working my way out of paranoia after giving up extended road riding when I became a father.

I would not hesitate the Roadini up Fremont Old OSP with 35mm tires. Almaden Quick Silver county park and Redwood Regional Preserve also have good gravel that are not too steep. I remember riding those with my kids and not having to deploy the tow rope much. I need to get around to riding Planet of the Apes.

[Chester]

Took me a while to get around to ordering new handlebars and then took me a while to get around to swapping the bars, then a while to commit to wrapping and another while to take a few pictures.

A few here and below:

https://imgur.com/a/FgPzkYf

Raised the stem up to just about as high as it can go without precipitating the need to re-do the front brake cable. So the riding position is quite upright and comfortable but because the stem is a short 50mm, the bar ends only come back roughly level with the stem bolt and so position doesn't feel cruiser-upright. Riding on the forward bends or brake hoods makes it feel sporty.

I wouldn't have predicted that I'd end up with brakes positioned as they are, but I've got them set a good deal less "inward" and more toward the apex of the forward bends than the Bridgestone orthodoxy. For me, the levers are in a good position when I'm in the forward bends, since the more natural spot for me feels like slightly to the outside rather than straight forward. And having them less inward makes it really quick and natural to inch my hands up slightly from the bar ends to catch the end of the levers. And it's even pretty close and natural when I'm on the bar ends to get my left thumb over to the bell where it is. The ends are also really nice for sprinting and climbing. 

I can totally see why some people arrange so the bar ends are the primary hand position, with flat-bar-style or reverse levers positioned for that. It's definitely the most relaxed position, but I wanted brakes placed for least non-aero position and also to enable the furthest forward brake hood position.

Because of the handlebar bag, I lose the position flanking the stem, which is what I rode in the most when I had mustache bars on a couple of other bikes. But that was to get a more upright cruising position, with lower and longer stems, and with the stem how it is now, all positions are various grades of chill.

I had mentally agonized a bunch over shift lever positions. It would be nice to make them bar-ends, but the more I ride this bike, the more I'm finding that downtube levers being less accessible makes me shift less in a good way. Right now, I'm pretty much only riding on flat land and so I don't really need to shift at all, and hardly do, which is nice. When I realized this was going on, it reminded me of how pleasant of a surprise it was when I realized that I had been subconsciously appreciating the Zen of a singlespeed.

Really happy with the setup and the one thing I think I might do is try to try to see at what point dropping the stem lower becomes too low for me.

Chester

SF Bay Area

[Johnny Alien]

Looks fantastic! I love the pink with it. Great call