VO Grand Cru long reach brakes?

[Adam Kimball]

Hi,

In my search for the best brakes, I've been thinking about trying the
Velo Orange Grand Cru brakes. In their marketing copy they mention
that the brakes are the best of "every other" long-reach brake caliper
they have tried. I'd take that to mean VO believes them to be better
than Silvers and Paul's. Can anyone confirm or deny this claim?
Certainly nice looking brakes..

-Adam

[Justin August]

I am Grand Crurious myself...but I don't think they would work on the
Bleriot - and they don't open very wide, comparatively.

[James Valiensi]

Hi,
I just got a set. They replace the Shimano BR600 long reach I had on my Rivendell. I switched o Campagnolo on that bike and didn't want to mix Shimano & Campy (but off-brands are OK?!)
The brakes are very nicely made. The pads are a very good quality. They open a very slight more amount than the Shimano's did. They modulate and stop to my liking. They were 20grams lighter than the BR600's - like anyone on this list would care about such no sense, but I like using my digital scale!
(I tried the Silver's/Techno's one time on this bike and was not pleased with their stopping power.)

Somewhere on the internet, I saw the same exact brakes under a different brand name on a nice bike.

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James Valiensi, PE
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796

[JoelMatthews]

> I'd take that to mean VO believes them to be better than Silvers and Paul's.  Can anyone confirm or deny this claim?

Paul Racers have been around for years, have a very loyal following,
and stop bikes as well as any rim brake made. The Crus are brand new
to the market, dual pivot not center pull, not as robust as the Pauls,
and in my opinion anyway (and having only seen the Crus on line),
nowhere near as good looking.

Under the circumstances I have not a clue how anyone can confirm VO's
puffery. Certainly it is impossible to say the Crus will be as durable
as the Pauls. The best one can say is that it would be an amazing
feat, indeed, if the Crus are better than Paul.

To put things in perspective, when VO was selling custom made
Randonnuers instead of the stock frames (which it is dropping in any
event) it offered Paul's at a discount with the frame purchase. I
seem to recall the VO text saying Paul's were the best brakes out
there.

[amoll68]

Haven't used them on a bike, but FWIW, I've fondled them in the VO
showroom and was fairly impressed with the quality and value.

I already rub Paul's on my AHH, and think they're great.

Alex Moll
Marysville, WA

[cyclotourist]

I was writing back and forth with someone who has them, replacing the Tektro/Silver (556???)  long reach models.  They said the stopping power was great, no mushiness at all, but that you had to deflate wide tires to get them in.  For them, that was worth it.

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS

[James Valiensi]

Hi,
I've had the Paul's Racers and now the Crus. The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.
I don't see why the Crus would not be as durable as the Paul's.
Both brakes are CNC machined from aluminum plate. They are not forged or cast.
Time will tell though, but the Crus are much cheaper.
Cheers!

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James Valiensi, PE
Northridge, CA
H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796

[Michael_S]

I've gotten feedback from a few who've used them. Both said they were
far better in stiffness and modulation than either the ShimaNo or the
Tektros. I'm about ready to buy a pair for my new-to-me Ram. The only
down side I've heard is that the Tektro's open wider. With a Tektro
lever with the QR button they will barely clear a Jack Brown was what
I heard. M Racers open wider. The Pauls look incredible but I wanted
to stay with sidepulls on this bike ( got Paul braze-on's on the
Randonneuse)

~Mike~

On Sep 27, 8:24 pm, James Valiensi <valie...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I've had the Paul's Racers and now the Crus. The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.
> I don't see why the Crus would not be as durable as the Paul's.

> Both brakes are CNC machined from aluminum plate. They are not forged or castTime will tell though, but the Crus are much cheaper.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

>
> James Valiensi, PE
> Northridge, CA

> H818.775.1847 M.818.585.1796- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[charlie]

IMHO its all about the pads which are easily changed. Really now.....
its a mechanical clamp squeezing two rubber pads onto an aluminum rim.
The only thing that might affect stopping power is the riders hand
strength. The amount of flex increases with the length of the arm if
its not made thicker or if the shape is not modified but I don't see
how that can affect stopping power, feel maybe but not sheer stopping
power. Looks and precision construction are another matter. I can't
see how any imported brake would match the Paul brakes in that
department unless they set out to make a more expensive brake that
would directly compete in the first place. I'm not even sure how
anyone could test a brake for its stopping power while riding it
without inflicting some hand operated bias. If a machine were made
that spun a 300 pound wheel at 25 mph and mechanically squeezed a
particular brand of brake/pad you could then measure the stopping
power accurately enough. Otherwise the better brake idea is kind of a
subjective one. I say buy what you like they are just brakes.

[Michael_S]

Brake calipers are more sophisticated than you think. And the place of
origin has nothing to do with how well they work. Pauls are well
designed and made, and considerably more expensive. The design or the
caliper and the cross sectional area of the arm can certainly make a
difference in mechanical advantage.

~Mike~

> > -Adam- Hide quoted text -

[Jon]

I have them and like them a great deal. To be fair to VO's marketing
copy, "best of their kind" may mean standard reach dual calipers so
they may not be comparing themselves to centerpulls. Even ignoring
that, at the time VO released their Grand Crus the Paul Racer M's
weren't available, only the original long-reach variety.

That said, if I were picking parts now, I'd probably spend the extra
cash for the Paul Racer M's because I do think they're prettier, like
centerpulls, and enjoy spoiling my Rambouillet.

[stevep33]

The VO's are my favorite. I've used the 57mm brakes from Tektro,
Shimano and Paul Racer M's too (on my Rambouillet). The VO's are
stiffer, more powerful and more nicely constructed than the Tektro's
and Shimano's - no contest. Tire/fender clearance on the VO's is
comparable with other good 57mm reach brakes.
The VO's perform as nicely as the Paul's, IMO. I prefer sidepull
brakes over centerpull brakes, so the VO's are the clear choice for
me.

Michael_S is right about the opening width. The VO's open wide
enough for a true 30mm tire, depending on how tightly you set the
cable.

[JoelMatthews]

> The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.

I would be curious to see how you had the Pauls set up. With the
spring adjustment properly set and the pads toed in at the optimal
angle Pauls stopping power is often superior to the bike's ability to
tolerate. If you experienced squealing it suggests your set up is not
correct.

> The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.

The caliper itself is only part of the brake. The spring is the
critical component. I am no engineer, but the Paul Racer spring
placement is very good and in my opinion will stop better than dual
pivot.

On Sep 27, 10:24 pm, James Valiensi <valie...@mac.com> wrote:
> Hi,
> I've had the Paul's Racers and now the Crus. The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.
> I don't see why the Crus would not be as durable as the Paul's.
> Both brakes are CNC machined from aluminum plate. They are not forged or cast.

> Time will The Crus stop better and don't squeal, at least that has been my experience.

> > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

>
> James Valiensi, PE
> Northridge, CA

[James Valiensi]

Joel,
As I wrote it was my experience, yours may be different.
Cheers!

> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Adam Kimball]

Everyone,

Thanks for the discussion. This has been incredibly helpful to me.
I've never owned a bike with center-pull brakes of any type, so this
is my first time working with them. I will say that as a newbie (but
a quick-learning one) - my Paul Racer brakes have given me a lot of
headaches. I don't like the modulation of the brakes - I assume that
I will become used to it at some point, but right now they feel
incredibly squishy to my hands. Likewise, there are so many variables
to get right. I've spent no less than 10 hours setting up these
brakes (!) and right now I'm still pretty unhappy. Guess I need to
get to work on them again. They've got to do a better job stopping me
than they are doing now.. I just need to figure it out.

One thing I really don't understand is that variables the spring
tension effects? This is one area where I have not experimented very
much and I'm hopeful that I can squeeze some more performance out of
the brakes (and no, the pun was not intentional ;)

-Adam

[Scott G.]

On Sep 29, 1:22 pm, Adam Kimball <adamfkimb...@gmail.com> wrote:
[snip]but right now they feel

> incredibly squishy to my hands.

The Pauls do not feel like dual pivots, they are squishy.
When I switch back to dual pivot braked bike the brakes feel
too abrupt, I have to remember to use a lighter touch.

The straddle wire that came with the brakes was to stiff
and the straddle carrier was cheesy. I use a Mafac straddle
carrier and more flexible straddle carrier without the lozenge
shaped bit. You want to minimize the brake take up.

 
> One thing I really don't understand is that variables the spring
> tension effects?

You need enough spring tension so the brakes retract completely
from the rims, the springs are also used to center the brakes.

[JoelMatthews]

> I don't like the modulation of the brakes - I assume that I will become used to it at some point, but right now they feel
> incredibly squishy to my hands.

I have two bikes with Pauls. Modulation is similar to dual pivot.
Your description is subjective but sound like an installation issue.
Among other things you need to verify you have the correct levers for
centerpulls.

> Likewise, there are so many variables to get right. I've spent no less than 10 hours setting up these
> brakes (!) and right now I'm still pretty unhappy. Guess I need to
> get to work on them again. They've got to do a better job stopping me
> than they are doing now.. I just need to figure it out.

Paul's instructions do recommend you have the installation done by an
experienced mechanic. The beauty of the Paul variability is it allows
as many different configurations as there are sizes of bikes.

My first bike with Paul I had no idea what I was doing. They did not
work right. My LBS was able to get them in order right away. Some
pictures I had fortuitously taken pictures before hand allowed me to
compare my set up with the LBS set up. That combined with some trial
and error, I can now set them up right the first time.

> One thing I really don't understand is that variables the spring
> tension effects? This is one area where I have not experimented very
> much and I'm hopeful that I can squeeze some more performance out of
> the brakes

Combined with the other adjustments proper spring tensioning is what
makes the brakes so powerful.

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[Steve Palincsar]

On Wed, 2010-09-29 at 10:22 -0700, Adam Kimball wrote:
> Everyone,
>
> Thanks for the discussion. This has been incredibly helpful to me.
> I've never owned a bike with center-pull brakes of any type, so this
> is my first time working with them. I will say that as a newbie (but
> a quick-learning one) - my Paul Racer brakes have given me a lot of
> headaches. I don't like the modulation of the brakes - I assume that
> I will become used to it at some point, but right now they feel
> incredibly squishy to my hands. Likewise, there are so many variables
> to get right. I've spent no less than 10 hours setting up these
> brakes (!) and right now I'm still pretty unhappy. Guess I need to
> get to work on them again. They've got to do a better job stopping me
> than they are doing now.. I just need to figure it out.
>
> One thing I really don't understand is that variables the spring
> tension effects? This is one area where I have not experimented very
> much and I'm hopeful that I can squeeze some more performance out of
> the brakes (and no, the pun was not intentional ;)

I think you should just bring the bike to a bike shop and have them do
it. You've obviously got it set up all wrong, as modulation is what the
Paul Racer does better than any other brake in the world.

[JoelMatthews]

> I think you should just bring the bike to a bike shop and have them do
> it. You've obviously got it set up all wrong, as modulation is what the

> Paul Racer does better than any other brake in the world.-

Exactly.

And as I say above, unless the LBS allows you to watch them adjust,
take pictures of your set up to compare with the proper set up. Pauls
are deceptively simple. It is amazing the difference one washer in
another place or an mm up or down stradle height make.

> Paul Racer does better than any other brake in the world.- Hide quoted text -