Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?

[lungimsam]

Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!

http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

That's funny. My skinny tire road bike is running 700x40.

[Bruce Gordon]

Morning All,

I read the posts about the wide tire revolution.

We have had our big Rock n’ Road tires from before 29er’s were 29er’s (700x43)

They are IN STOCK ready to ship – check them out on our blog at -

http://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/2012/04/rock-n-road-tire-is-offically-for-sale.html

 

Regards,

Bruce Gordon

www.bgcycles.com

http://brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com/

http://www.sopwamtos.com/

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[Bruce Gordon]

Morning All,

I read the posts about the wide tire revolution.

We have had our big Rock n’ Road tires (from before 29er’s were 29er’s - 700x43) remade by Panaracer in Japan

[PATRICK MOORE]

This news is pretty amazing if you remember what the bike and tire
situation was like 10 to 15 years ago. Kudos to both of them!

Patrick "my 650c Michelin Pro Race 3 23s were on sale, and now I know
why (but they are acceptably cushy at 85/90--90/95 or so)" Moore, who
will switcth to, say, 26s to 28s if the come out in that range, and
who still thinks that skinny supple tires are better than fat stiff
ones.

On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:49 AM, lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
> http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred
>

--
Vote early, vote often, vote Rhinoceros!
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-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Lyle Bogart]

Hmmmm. . . I thought "wider" began at 32mm. . .

On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com> wrote:

Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!

http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred

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lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[Marc Schwartz]

Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion!
Let's start "wide" with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs
________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lyleb...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM
To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?

Hmmmm. . . I thought "wider" began at 32mm. . .

On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com<mailto:john1...@gmail.com>> wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred

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lyle f bogart dpt

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[Lyle Bogart]

You think? See, I was thinking of the floor (size-wise) as something like Grand Bois Cypres at 32, then getting properly wide at something like the Schwalbe Marathons at 47. . . not quite fat, but certainly wide. . . maybe, though. . . seems a matter of indeterminacy: certainly 23 and 25 aren't wide. But 28? 29?  They seem a bit of a cusp-species to me :)

[William]

I did a 650B conversion on an 1980s racing bike that had 700x20 tires on it.  To my fat-tire-enamored eye, they looked like razor blades.  Like you'd pump them to 140psi and they'd slice a groove into the pavement.  Who would ride such things?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

I have a set of these on the Mystery Bike.  They are really great tires – excellent traction on trails, NO road buzz on pavement, and very cushy.

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[dougP]

Maybe we'll see ads touting a bike's versatility due to an ability to handle wide(r) tires.  I can see an add for the 2014 Trekalized racer screaming "...tires up to 30 mm...".  What's next?  Gasp:  rack'n'fender eyelets???

dougP

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 8:49:48 AM UTC-7, lungimsam wrote:

[Ron Mc]

It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his 27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the front.  If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper.  But clearly this frame was built as a road racer and not a touring frame.  I let him get in front at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us  @ 24 mph for 13 miles.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 13:42 -0700, Ron Mc wrote:
> It does sound strange to call 25 wider...

It's all a matter of context. 25 /is/ "wider" when it come to racing
tires and racing frames. There are plenty of racing frames that don't
have room for a 25mm tire. And the extra width can have a huge impact
on pressure: a 200 lb rider would have to run a 23mm tire at 120 psi,
but can use 90-95 with a 25.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 13:38 -0700, dougP wrote:
> Maybe we'll see ads touting a bike's versatility due to an ability to
> handle wide(r) tires. I can see an add for the 2014 Trekalized racer
> screaming "...tires up to 30 mm...". What's next? Gasp:
> rack'n'fender eyelets???

The Domane's got that, too. At least, the fender eyelets.

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:42:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:

It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his 27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the front.  If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper.  But clearly this frame was built as a road racer and not a touring frame.  I let him get in front at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us  @ 24 mph for 13 miles.  

I've been riding 700x25 tires for the last 7 or 8 years. When I first started, most of my friends were on 20s and 23s. I usually run my 25s @ 85-90psi; my friends' tires varied from 100-130psi!  They all use to laugh at me as you could actually see a size difference - my tires were noticeably fatter. Now, things have changed, most have given up 20s and many have gone to 25s. My "advantage" is pretty much gone. Maybe its time to try 28s....which basically isn't going to happen as my carbon fork won't allow anything fatter than 25s...Good Luck!

[Marc Schwartz]

True, maybe, but I wanted to include Rams (w/fenders), some Riv Roads, RB1s, Raleigh Intls, and other cool old road bikes in our "Wide Tire Lovers' Society" rather than to be some mean ol' "He-Man Skinny Tire Haters' Club"** by cutting with too sharp of a knife.

'Tis more the attitude with which thou ridest, methinks!


**(apologies to Spanky, Buckwheat, Froggie, and the rest)



Love, Peace, and Understanding,
Marc

________________________________________
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lyleb...@gmail.com]

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:46 PM

To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?

You think? See, I was thinking of the floor (size-wise) as something like Grand Bois Cypres at 32, then getting properly wide at something like the Schwalbe Marathons at 47. . . not quite fat, but certainly wide. . . maybe, though. . . seems a matter of indeterminacy: certainly 23 and 25 aren't wide. But 28? 29? They seem a bit of a cusp-species to me :)

On 18 October 2012 15:21, Marc Schwartz <msch...@nmsu.edu<mailto:msch...@nmsu.edu>> wrote:
Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion!
Let's start "wide" with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs
________________________________________

From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> [rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lyleb...@gmail.com<mailto:lyleb...@gmail.com>]

Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM

To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com<mailto:rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?

Hmmmm. . . I thought "wider" began at 32mm. . .

On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam <john1...@gmail.com<mailto:john1...@gmail.com><mailto:john1...@gmail.com<mailto:john1...@gmail.com>>> wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred

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lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd
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207.882.6494<tel:207.882.6494>
206.794.6937<tel:206.794.6937>

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156 bradford rd
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[Lyle Bogart]

Fair enough, methinks! 

206.794.6937

[lungimsam]

Just a short step away from a TdeF team riding all Roadeos.

[Michael_S]

that's an easy fix... dump that crabby fiber fork and get a real steel one.  Fat tire problem solved

~mike

[Reid]

And here all this time, I've been soooo smug about my Ruffy Tuffys (28s) and how I don't fall for all that idiotic "racer boy" stuff. How am I gonna keep my self-righteous attitude if real racers are using 28s? How dare they!

 

Reid

 

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:23:12 PM UTC-7, Michael_S wrote:

that's an easy fix... dump that crabby fiber fork and get a real steel one.  Fat tire problem solved

What?! You want me to ADD weight to my bike? :) I suppose its possible, but are there really alot of people who "dump" their carbon forks for steel ones? ;)  ! Good Luck! 

[Jan Heine]

On Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:48:03 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 

who still thinks that skinny supple tires are better than fat stiff
ones.

I think that is easily overlooked. Given a choice between a 25 mm Vittoria Open CX Corsa and a 35 mm Schwalbe Marathon, I know I'd pick the skinny tire, because it's both faster and more comfortable. Casing construction trumps width by a great margin.

When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep the casing the same.

A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide tires in the future.

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 08:59 -0700, Jan Heine wrote:
> When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires
> measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The
> correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep
> the casing the same.
>
> A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide
> tires in the future.

If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but
also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of
glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I
should also add, "(c)and cheap." Unfortunately, I think that while (b)
and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls? 

Toshi

[Lyle Bogart]

I agree, Steve. Fast, supple, puncture resistant. . . that'd be delightful.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:17 -0700, Toshi Takeuchi wrote:
> Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls?

I'm not even sure what "weak sidewalls" means. I'm using several
different tires that are all assuredly fast and supple, including Grand
Bois Cypres, Grand Bois Hetre and Challenge Parigi Roubaix. I've used
many other brands and types of tires over the years, and the only time
I've ever had an issue with a sidewall it was when a centerpull caliper
arm froze, the other arm did all the moving, and the brake pad moved up
to contact the sidewall and wore it through. How "strong" does a
sidewall need to be?

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

As somebody who sells bike stuff to the general public, I can testify that the notion that every bike or part or accessory choice comes with a set of compromises is generally not easy to accept for many cyclists (especially those who just have one bike). I'd personally take the 35 mm Marathons over the 25 mm race tire any day, because traction, flotation, and durability over widely varied terrain is more important to me than speed/efficiency on pavement. Others have different priorities. But I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find that some middle ground is suitable.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:33 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive
> tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find
> that some middle ground is suitable.
>

Many are willing to accept < 2,000 miles per tire for a high performance
"event tire." Most racing 23mm tires will give less than 2,000 miles
service life. And there's a wide range of acceptable "puncture
resistance." Some, indeed many, find the level of puncture resistance
provided by the Grand Bois Cypres to be entirely acceptable, while
others demand far more and find the Cypres to be unacceptably puncture
prone. Some of this may depend on local riding conditions: if your
rides are entirely on glass and trash-strewn roads, or if you live in
goathead country, a tire that gives a flat per thousand miles on clean
roads may give you a flat every five miles.

[Jan Heine]

On Friday, October 19, 2012 9:11:23 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

 

If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but
also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of
glass and sharp stone and long tread life.  I guess while I'm at it I
should also add, "(c)and cheap."   Unfortunately, I think that while (b)
and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. 

In fact, wide tires can meet all three demands...

a) Fast: We now know that a wider tire is faster (up to a point) or at least no slower than a narrower one, if you keep the casing and tread the same.

b) Puncture Resistance: Wider tires are more puncture-resistant, because they run at lower pressures.

c) Cheap: The important variable is price per mile, and a wider tire always will be cheaper, because it lasts so much longer, since the wear is spread over more rubber.

I don't want to sound like I am advertising here, but the 650B x 42 mm Grand Bois Hetre meets all your criteria. It is one of the fastest tires on the market. It gets far less punctures than almost any tire you can buy (most of us average one puncture per 8000 miles). And it lasts at least 4000 miles, compared to less than 2000 for most 25 mm tires.

There are few win-win-win situations in physics, but this is one of them. (The disadvantages of wide tires are too small to make a difference in most riding.)

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I agree, Steve, if we're talking about tire "connoisseurs" (i.e. many people reading this group), that some are willing to use a no-compromise tire. Among 95% of my usual clientèle, however, a tire that is somewhat delicate for the sake of efficiency is a deal-breaker. No matter how nicely a tire rolls, most less-than-obsessive cyclists will pronounce it "junk" if it gets a flat under any circumstances. Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are "bomb-proof" (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof tire.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I haven't tried the Hetres, but one of these days I'll put together a 650B bike and try them. I've heard lots of good stuff, but didn't realize how durable they're proving to be.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I don't know how strong they need to be, but my impression is that Grant prefers tires with stronger sidewalls--presumably because they are safer? 

I am a fan of high performance tires for event rides. The Pari-moto tires are fantastic. I also have Grand Bois Cypres for my 700c bike. For "everyday" riding, I don't need high performance. More resistance and weight is fine, but more comfort is always welcomed. 

If I can get more sidewall cut resistance/flat resistance and high performance, then that would be great. What tires are a good compromise?  Not necessarily the highest performance, but a good balance of these other traits? How much of a difference do the kevlar/aramid/other strips make in terms of flat resistance? 

Grant asks (something like), "Why can't I run a tire with stiffer sidewalls at lower pressure and still get good performance?"

--In terms of performance, anytime you flex the thicker casing, there will be an energy loss (you need to take the kinetic energy of bike motion and convert it to mechanical energy to flex the casing) and therefore (it stands to reason) it should result in a speed/performance loss. However, in terms of

ride comfort, I think Grant has a good point. At lower pressures, the casing will flex and absorb the shock from the road, and the ride should be just as comfortable.  I would find it hard pressed to believe that a 25 mm tire will be as comfortable as a 35 or 38mm tire at lower pressures (and stiffer sidewalls). (In terms of performance there is no doubt...)

Toshi

On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com> wrote:

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:17 -0700, Toshi Takeuchi wrote:
> Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls?

 How "strong" does a
sidewall need to be?

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 10:24 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> I agree, Steve, if we're talking about tire "connoisseurs" (i.e. many
> people reading this group), that some are willing to use a
> no-compromise tire. Among 95% of my usual clientèle, however, a tire
> that is somewhat delicate for the sake of efficiency is a
> deal-breaker. No matter how nicely a tire rolls, most
> less-than-obsessive cyclists will pronounce it "junk" if it gets a
> flat under any circumstances. Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists
> will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are
> "bomb-proof" (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which
> sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof
> tire.

I routinely see people with high end ($6,000 and up) carbon racing bikes
sporting Armadillo tires because they fear and hate flats. I've never
used a 23mm Armadillo, but I did once try 38mm Armadillos on my
commuter... and took them off and threw them away after 2 weeks because
they rode so bad.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 10:27 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:
> I haven't tried the Hetres, but one of these days I'll put together a
> 650B bike and try them. I've heard lots of good stuff, but didn't
> realize how durable they're proving to be.

For me, flat resistant, comfortable, long lasting and fast, too. If you
haven't tried Hetres, you should do. They definitely are something
special.

[Tim McNamara]

On Oct 19, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote:

> Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are "bomb-proof" (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof tire.

This has been part of the high-performance marketing strategy for years. Sell an expensive unsuitable product (imagine 230 lbs me on a 15 lb wunderbike with all the latest unobtanium bling) and, when it fails, lure them to buy a more expensive and no more suitable replacement product. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[PATRICK MOORE]

There are some that come close, at least. I don't know about the
Compass tires -- perhaps they fit your bill -- but the Kojak is light
(at least with Kevlar bead), supple, fast, and my new, warranteed
559X1.35 wire beads claim "Level 4 flat protection" whatever that
means.

Just got back from a very nice mixed terrain ride with listmember and
Santa Fean Tim Whelan, both on Fargos, me with my Big Apple wheelset.
The BA wheelset is a dog compared to my Riv wheelsets but I was once
again pleasantly surprised at how well it rolled on the Santa Fe
rollers. Sketchy in loose stuff but quite nice on pavement. Thanks to
them I managed to keep up with Tim on his knobbies.

Vote early, vote often, vote Rhinoceros!
http://tinyurl.com/d7muj2t

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[PATRICK MOORE]

3500 fixed gear rear for a 650CX23 Conti Grand Prix; only 1,500 fixed
rear for a 559X22 Turbo (much more in front, of course) but for me
worth it for the ride. I probably under inflate, but I realized 20
years ago that the Turbos were particularly cushy for narrow tires if
properly inflated. (I did go to the Kojaks on the 559 Riv but only
because I carry loads on that bike.)