#%*#! Fenders!!!!

[Broccoli Cog]

Ok I broke the cardinal rule and didn't leave well enough alone. I have a newer Sam with sidepull Tektro brakes. My tires are 40mm Clement MSO. The fenders are SKS P45. My front fender is driving me nuts! I had been riding the bike without any rubbing but I noticed the other day that the nose of the fender is curved to one side. I attempted to straighten it out and I quickly determined there is nothing I can do to straighten it. Now I am putting it all back together including the Mark's rack and I can get it so it's not rubbing. It's close but the little rubber hairs on the tire are rubbing. Maybe when I get it off the stand and go ride it I won't notice but I could help but think a better mechanic then I can get them just right. At this point I'm ready to rip them both off. Is there anyone out there who can restore my sanity by giving me some tips on aligning these properly?

[Philip Kim]

Possibly need a wider fender. If I remember correctly I ran p50s on my sam

[Davey Two Shoes]

....pull rubber hairs off the tire and move on :)

[Philip Kim]

Also might help to bolt the fender to marks rack with some spacers as well

[Orc]

Bolt it to the rack;  thermoplastic fenders are nice, but they tend to want to weave their way sinuously around the perimeter of the wheel, and nailing the front of the fender in place reduces the visible weaving.

-david parsons

[Joe Bernard]

Short of getting wider fenders, I would just put it back on the road and go for a ride. The little nubbies were probably rubbing before and you didn't hear it over road and wind noise.

[iamkeith]

Ideas from having installed numerous sks fenders:

1) As others mentioned and assuming there is a threaded boss on the underside of the Mark's rack, use that to suck the fender upward and stabilize. But do this LAST, after you have the rest as good as possible, because you have to drill a hole in a precise location.

2) try sliding the fender TOWARD the tire on the stays closest to the fork, relative to the lower stays near the back/bottom of the fender. (Or vice versa, move the fender outward at the lower stays.) The result is that the front, unsupported end of the fender will angle more upward and away from the tire.

3) Use Sheldon fender nut, to attach the front support tab behind and spaced away from the fork crown. In addition to making removal easier, this will often change the geometry to allow the front of the fender to point upward and sit higher. (Might want to try this first)

4) subtle and opposing left / right adjustments to the opposite sides of each pair of stays will definitely help twist the nose back in line. (Along with affecting left/right position). It's tedious and takes a lot of trial and error, but becomes necessary if you don't have a front rack to do the 'forced' alignment. It is unlikely that the twist is 100% inherent to the fender - they are very well made and true when not installed. Dont even waste time with the black, plastic stay caps until you've gotten the alignment right.

[Steve Palincsar]

However, the fact that you have so little clearance between the tire and
the fender should give you pause. Sticks getting caught in fenders is a
serious business and a real safety hazard, and it's mainly caused by
insufficient clearance. BQ has changed its recommendation from 1-1.5 cm
to 2cm clearance. Those would have to be some damn serious whiskers to
extend 2cm.

[Garth]

I was wondering the same as Steve , rubber "cat hair whiskers" on those tires ? !! I agree that the nubs should never come close to rubbing. Contibuting also is a p45 fender with a 40mm tire. I don't know the actual width of either but it sounds like it's pretty close in width which also leaves less room for lateral variarances of the fender, wheel and tire. As mentioned a P50 would be great, but I know, yet another fender to buy ......

[Broccoli Cog]

The Rivendell web store recommended the P45 for tires up to 40mm. I realize I am maxing out with the tires I ride so the clearance is going to be tight. I would have purchased the P50 but I didn't think they would clear the brake. The Sam pictured on the Riv website with the P50 mounted has canti brakes. I do have the quick release on the stays to mitigate any danger of sticks getting caught.

[Broccoli Cog]

Thanks! I do have the Sheldon nut at home. I'll try mounting it to the back of the fork crown with the Sheldon nut to see if that helps. I also like the idea of being able to take them off without removing the brake and Mark's rack but I wonder now why I'd want to

[Tim Gavin]

Yes, you would have a hard time fitting P50 fenders under Tektro R559 sidepull calipers.  R559's will even intrude on P45 fenders and will bend the nose of the fender into the tire when the Q/R is opened.

A Sheldon nut may help you, or may not.  It would rotate the fender towards the rear, which would reduce the length of the nose (and make the mudflap closer to the ground).  But I think that there still would be enough nose for the R559 to bend it.

Drilling a hole and fixing the nose of the fender to the Mark's rack will definitely make it more secure and resistant to the fender-bending nature of the R559.

I swapped the R559's out for centerpull brakes (I used Paul Racers I found on this list) which have much better fender clearance.

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Broccoli Cog <tba...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Rivendell web store recommended the P45 for tires up to 40mm. I realize I am maxing out with the tires I ride so the clearance is going to be tight. I would have purchased the P50 but I didn't think they would clear the brake. The Sam pictured on the Riv website with the P50 mounted has canti brakes. I do have the quick release on the stays to mitigate any danger of sticks getting caught.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Broccoli Cog]

Or I could learn to live with the bent fender nose. I suspect opening the tektro brake has contributed to the bend. Once I have the Wald 137 with bag back on the bike I won't see the fender from the cockpit. That said I have been pining for a set of those Paul Racers. Do you find they allow for a little easier wheel removal with wider tires? I'll try spending more time on this tonight. Thanks for everyone's help. I really appreciate all of you!

[Howard Hatten]

I also had the same problem on my Atlantis using the SKS fender. I would get everything adjusted perfect, hit the road and the front would migrate over and start the annoying rubbing.
I fixed it using iamkeith's method,

1) As others mentioned and assuming there is a threaded boss on the underside of the Mark's rack, use that to suck the fender upward and stabilize. But do this LAST, after you have the rest as good as possible, because you have to drill a hole in a precise location.

I didn't screw to the tab, I positioned the fender where I wanted it and drilled 2 small holes on either side of the tab. A zip tie holds the fender up against the tab now. 2 years no movement

Howard
Livonia Mi

[Tim Gavin]

On Tue, Apr 18, 2017 at 8:44 AM, Broccoli Cog <tba...@gmail.com> wrote:

That said I have been pining for a set of those Paul Racers. Do you find they allow for a little easier wheel removal with wider tires?

Actually, no, Paul Racers do not open as wide as R559s.  The curved arm comes to rest on the centerpull post, and that's all the opening you get.  I have to force my 38 mm Pari-Motos through if they're fully inflated.  

Narrow "thinline" Koolstop pads give you a little more wiggle room for the tire, but they're long enough to hit the fork.

Koolstop "cross" pads are short enough to clear the fork, but they're thicker so it's probably a wash.

I don't know if other decent centerpulls, like MAFAC Raids or Dia-Compes open wider.  They do have better fender clearance than R559s. 

If you attach the fender to the boss on the bottom of the Mark's rack, I doubt the R559 will be able to bend the nose as easily.

Use a screw with a counter-sunk head to minimize intrusion under the fender.  My rack is mounted low enough that I used a screw from a SPD cleat, it fits perfectly and is nearly flush on the inside.

[Philip Kim]

just as tim said, paul racers do not have a quick release to make it easier to pull tires in and out without deflating. however, there are brake levers with a quick release function. IME, the QR function on brake levers doesn't do much unless you replace the stock koolstop thinline v-brakes with catridge kool stop pads as tim mentioned.

IMO the paul racers are worth it on the Sam. they provide more tire clearance than the tektro 559s and offer far better braking and modulation than the 559's. I was able to tackle a bit more rooty and rocky trails with Pauls that i didn't have the confidence with the tektros doing, YMMV. my custom has brazed on paul racers, and it is even better.

When I had a cheviot with tektro 559's w/ kool stop salmon pads, even switching out the front brake for paul racers did wonders.

On the 650b version i had, i fit 42s and fenders comfortably - Paselas and P50 SKS fenders with sheldon fender nut.

deflating the tire is not really an issue. most likely if i'm changing out a wheel on the trail is because i have a flat, in which case the tire is already deflated, or when i'm doing work on the bike at home which i have a floor pump.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/18/2017 10:24 AM, Philip Kim wrote:
> just as tim said, paul racers do not have a quick release to make it
> easier to pull tires in and out without deflating.

Of course they do. You unhook the straddle cable and the arms open out
wide. Just like Mafac Racers.

[Philip Kim]

i have mine set to engage mid-way for my brake levers, and there's not enough give to pull the straddle cable out. maybe you have stronger fingers than i do.

[Steve Palincsar]

If you can't unhook the straddle cable you have them set too tight!   Do you have a tension adjuster anywhere on the cable run? 

[Philip Kim]

really? i feel like they bottom out where about 3/4ths of the way through the lever pull. only tension adjuster on the front cable hanger. i'll look at it again today.

[lconley]

I would say the opposite - if you can unhook them, they are too loose. Dia-Compe still makes a front quick release hanger and NOS Dia-Compe, Weinmann and Shimano front and rear quick release hangers are available on E-bay. The TRP levers have a quick release built in as well as some old Weinmann and Dia-Compe models, still available NOS. I still think the Mafac Competition center pulls have the best center pull quick release - built into the straddle cable.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 04/18/2017 04:34 PM, lconley wrote:

I would say the opposite - if you can unhook them, they are too loose.

Come on - don't be silly - that's how they are designed and meant to be used.   Why would they do that if you were meant to have the whole thing so tight you couldn't work the quick release mechanism?  

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 4:04:27 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

If you can't unhook the straddle cable you have them set too tight!   Do you have a tension adjuster anywhere on the cable run? 

On 04/18/2017 03:59 PM, Philip Kim wrote:

i have mine set to engage mid-way for my brake levers, and there's not enough give to pull the straddle cable out. maybe you have stronger fingers than i do.

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 3:55:52 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 04/18/2017 10:24 AM, Philip Kim wrote:
> just as tim said, paul racers do not have a quick release to make it
> easier to pull tires in and out without deflating.


Of course they do.  You unhook the straddle cable and the arms open out
wide.  Just like Mafac Racers.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

Perhaps there's a mismatch between the brake and the lever you are using.

--

[John Hawrylak]

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 7:22:57 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

BQ has changed its recommendation from 1-1.5 cm
to 2cm clearance.   

 

Steve

Is the 2cm you quote,  (Fender Width)  -  (Tire Width), in other words the total clearance.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

 

[Steve Palincsar]

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/fenders-for-different-tire-sizes/   sums up their current thinking very well.

[John Hawrylak]

Steve

 

Thnks for the link,  On Fender Size, he states,   "Generally, fenders should be about 40% wider than your tire"

 

I have 32mm and 40% wider = 44.8mm or 45m.  I use the 45mm wide SKS P45's

 

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

 

 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/rbw-owners-bunch/IytpXrK8AF8/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Steve Palincsar]

It's also overhead clearance, and that's where most people fall short.  Insufficient width means you don't have good coverage.  Insufficient overhead clearance means you can get a stick or a stone caught in there.  But yes, 45 is generally the right width for 32mm tires.

On 04/18/2017 06:54 PM, John Hawrylak wrote:

Steve

 

Thnks for the link,  On Fender Size, he states,   "Generally, fenders should be about 40% wider than your tire"

 

I have 32mm and 40% wider = 44.8mm or 45m.  I use the 45mm wide SKS P45's

 

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>
To: rbw-owners-bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tue, Apr 18, 2017 6:21 pm
Subject: Re: [RBW] #%*#! Fenders!!!!

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2015/10/21/fenders-for-different-tire-sizes/   sums up their current thinking very well.

On 04/18/2017 06:13 PM, John Hawrylak wrote:

On Tuesday, April 18, 2017 at 7:22:57 AM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:

BQ has changed its recommendation from 1-1.5 cm
to 2cm clearance.   

 

Steve

Is the 2cm you quote,  (Fender Width)  -  (Tire Width), in other words the total clearance.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Dave Small]

I bought a complete "drop bar" Sam from Rivendell last summer, with sidepull brakes.  It sounds like we have the same era Sam.  I run the 38mm Kendra tires that came on it, and installed Velo Orange 52mm Zeppelin fenders front and rear and a Mark's rack in front.  Everything fits well, is quiet (for now, anyway), and looks great.  I mention this in case you'd consider reasonably-priced metal fenders to solve your problem.  

[panog]

Another point of reference for the adequacy of fender coverage and tire size. I have VO 45 mm fenders on one bike and find that they will accommodate up to a 33mm tire while maintaining adequate vertical and lateral clearances with very good results. For 35 up to 38 mm tires I have been using the VO 50 mm fenders with excellent results.
I cant see how the SKS P45 is described to cover up to 45mm tires (assuming there is enough clearance to mount them high enough to do so) and still keep your feet protected from the tire blow-off spray while in the rain.

[Broccoli Cog]

Success! I thought I would provide and update here to let everyone know how I made out. After 3 sessions in my workshop (aka my basement) I was able  to finally get everything aligned to my satisfaction. What it took was an abundance of patience and determination. I explored the possibility of permanent alignment of the fender nose by bolting it to the Mark's rack. I can see how this would work but I treated it as a last resort. There is about 3cm of space between the rack and the top of the fender so I would need a significant spacer. I had a nylon sleeve that just wasn't quite long enough. So I then tried mounting them to the rear of the fork crown with the Sheldon Nut.  I didn't like that at all. I found that when mounted to the rear of the fork raising the fender up high enough forced the nose down so that it was touching the tire. I decided to scrap that and go back to mounting it behind the brake again. When I put it back on this time starting from scratch I finally got it aligned just right. When I had it just right it took the curve out of the nose of the fender. It's not perfect but good enough. No tire rub whatsoever. The takeaway for me is that you have to keep playing with the adjustment of the fender stays to get it just right. It took a lot of trial and error but I now feel like I am much better equipped to deal with. I just hope it's not any time soon!

Tim  

On Monday, April 17, 2017 at 9:19:37 PM UTC-4, Broccoli Cog wrote:

Ok I broke the cardinal rule and didn't leave well enough alone. I have a newer Sam with sidepull Tektro brakes. My tires are 40mm Clement MSO. The fenders are SKS P45. My front fender is driving me nuts! I had been riding the bike without any rubbing but I noticed the other day that the nose of the fender is curved to one side. I attempted to straighten it out and I quickly determined there is nothing I can do to straighten it. Now I am putting it all back together including the Mark's rack and I can get it so it's not rubbing. It's close but the little rubber hairs on the tire are rubbing. Maybe when I get it off the stand and go ride it I won't notice but I could help but think a better mechanic then I can get them just right. At this point I'm ready to rip them both off. Is there anyone out there who can restore my sanity by giving me some tips on aligning these properly?

[John Stowe]

On Wednesday, April 19, 2017 at 4:51:53 AM UTC-4, panog wrote:

I cant see how the SKS P45 is described to cover up to 45mm tires (assuming there is enough clearance to mount them high enough to do so) and still keep your feet protected from the tire blow-off spray while in the rain.

I've always assumed that the SKS models were named according to the recommended tire width, e.g. the P45 would actually be around 52-55mm wide in order to accommodate up to 45mm tires. Is this not the case? Disclaimer: the only plastic fenders I have are Planet Bike so I don't have a sample to check.

[panog]

The SKS listed width refers to the width of the fender profile. I find this to also be true for the Honjo and VO.

http://www.sks-germany.com/en/productcategories/mudguards/

[iamkeith]

Good news. If/when you do decide to bolt to the mark's rack, a couple of easy ideas for thicker spacers that you might already have, are: 1) inner chainring spacer with a short piece of rubber tubing inside, to reduce diameter; and 2) knurled nuts from presta valves, stacked as needed.

[iamkeith]

Also, Riv sells a nice spacer in their rack hardware section, made by bridgestone. I plan to get some of those next time i place an order, just to have on hand.