Rene Herse Tires with tubes

[Brady Smith]

I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I also recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat? I’m thinking about a set of Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires for my BMC Monster Cross. These would be summer fun tires for suburban and country roads. When it’s back to commuting season (whenever that happens...) I’d put my Pasela Protites back on. Thoughts? Thanks!

[Deacon Patrick]

I run tubes in mine.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

I run mine with tubes....and some with tubes & sealant (touring variant)

I've gone two weeks and sliced a tire on some razor wire (why that was on the side of the road??)

I've also gone two seasons without a single flat on Snoqualmie Passes; in mostly urban riding.

Flats are somewhat based on luck and/or karma IMHO

Alex in Rochester, NY

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 6:37:46 AM UTC-7, Brady Smith wrote:

I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I also recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat? I’m thinking about a set of Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires for my BMC Monster Cross. These would be summer fun tires for suburban and country roads. When it’s back to commuting season (whenever that happens...) I’d put my Pasela Protites back on. Thoughts? Thanks!

I don't believe you need to run RH tubeless-compatible tires tubeless. These tires have a special bead that has been designed for tubeless installation and use, but are otherwise identical to their brethren that are not tubeless-compatible.

I run my Naches Pass, Rat Trap Pass, Barlow Pass, and Stampede Pass tires all with tubes, because I don't feel like repeating a messy sealant incident. I don't get too many flats (1-2/month?) and can't feel the lower rolling resistance from running them tubeless anyhow. YMMV, of course. Oh, my commuter has Naches Pass tires, so at least those aren't babied as a fair-weather steed. Life's too short to not be running supple tires. LOL

[Brian David Lewis-Jones]

I've had 3-4 flats in 3 sets of Bon Jon Passes, over roughly ~10,000 miles - some city riding, but mostly country miles. I run tubes in mine all the time. A single tire lasts me roughly 3k miles, although some people take them past 4k.

I suspect that if I were tubeless I'd have the confidence to take them past what I currently see as my "turn back point."

[Dean Henderson]

I’ve been running Loup Loup Pass (650B x 38) extra light casing tires with tubes on my Homer Hilsen. Over 1000 miles on a combination of paved & gravel roads with no problems.

[Eric Floden]

I have tubed (non-EL) Compass tires as follows:

- 44 x 700 on my Bomba ridden 80% pavement, 20% gravel, just fine. No flats in 3000km

- 38 x 700 road tires on my MEC Cote, ridden in eastern Ontario on 60% dirt/gravel. No flats in 3000 km

- 32 x 700 road tires on my Gilles Bertrand road bike, 50/50, two flats in 4000km

- 1.75 x 26 on wife's LHT, no flats in 3000km all pavement

I weigh 100 kg but think I ride light, often getting out saddle for rough stuff. I am happy with Compass/Herse!

Eric F

Vancouver BC (and Golden Lake ON)

[hugh flynn]

I currently have 6 sets of Rene Herse/Compass tires in use in extralight and standard casing on 26", 650B, and 700c wheels and I have yet to actually run any tubeless.  I do have several sets of tubeless wheels on hand but I've just been too lazy and gunk averse to bother trying with tubeless. I'll likely set up my son's gravel bike tubeless with a set of switchback hill (650b x 48mm) at some point this summer though. 

As others have noted...flats are a roll of the dice situation. What I can offer is that I find no appreciable difference between Rene Herse tires and anything else I've run in the past with regard to flat frequency (not much - but now that I've said it out loud I'm doomed). 

I am not easy on these tires by any means, and I've been massively impressed by how they hold up. I have a set of Extralight Snoqualmie (700x44) tires that have been on my Appaloosa for the last two years that have held up great (and I ride that thing EVERYWHERE). My first set of Compass tires (Extralight Barlow Pass/700 x 38) was purchased 5 years ago, have seen me through multiple backwoods tours on a loaded LHT, and are currently doing road duty on my fixed gear cross-check. I'm mostly moving to standard casing when buying new tires now (just to have a little more rubber on the tires), but my experience with the extralights has certainly been surprising. 

So, as with all things tire-related, your mileage may vary, but I've sure been thrilled by the ride and durability of my Rene Herse tires with tubes.  

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:22 AM Dean Henderson <deh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been running Loup Loup Pass (650B x 38) extra light casing tires with tubes on my Homer Hilsen. Over 1000 miles on a combination of paved & gravel roads with no problems.

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Hugh Flynn
Newburyport, MA

[Patrick Moore]

I use the paper thin Elk Pass, which is for tubes only, in goathead country. Without inadequate sealant -- OS Endurance -- in the tubes, I get a rear flat every 10 miles or so; without sealant that would probably double to the rate -- about 1 every 5 miles -- suffered with the Parigi Roubaix tires that first convinced me to use sealant. With good sealant -- OS regular formula -- the rate of flats that require me to stop and do something goes down to less than a 1-hand count per year; I daresay I'm getting punctures all the time, but OS regular seals them quickly and perfectly so that I don't notice them.

(FWIW, as I've said before, OS Endurance works wonderfully in low-pressure, paper-thin fat tires mounted tubeless, lasts a bit longer than regular, and leaves less residue, and that a very thin film which seems itself to be a thorn -- well, not a barrier, but a barrier to air leaking out from the holes they cause.)

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 7:37 AM Brady Smith <bradys...@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I also recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat? I’m thinking about a set of Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires for my BMC Monster Cross. These would be summer fun tires for suburban and country roads. When it’s back to commuting season (whenever that happens...) I’d put my Pasela Protites back on. Thoughts? Thanks!

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-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[David Carner]

Baby Shoe Pass: 1pair standard, 1 pair EL
Schwalbe extra light tubes
80/20 pavement/gravel
5 flats in 6000 km (3 standard, 2 EL)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/15/20 9:37 AM, Brady Smith wrote:
> I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I also recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat?

I've been using Compass / Herse EL tires for a long time. Several years
in 700x32C, probably around 10,000 miles on my Johnny Coast-built Velo
Orange Randonneur, and the last 5500 miles with the 650Bx38s with my JP
Weigle.  Always with tubes, I have no interest in going tubeless.  There
are some older rims that don't coexist well with tubeless-compatible
tires (a noteworthy example is the MA-40) but that's not a durability
issue, it's that you just can't get the tires onto the rims they're so
tight.

I'm not sure what you mean by "durability."  In general, as far as
flats, scuffs and wear are concerned in my experience they stand up
about the same as non-belted Paselas.  They're not a short-lived "event"
tire and at least in my usage they've not been fragile.  (Note that I
don't ride offroad on fire roads lined with sharp rocks the size of
softballs, I ride paved and sometimes unpaved roads and have never had
sidewall tear issues.)

As far as flats are concerned, as has been pointed out that's a crap
shoot, but the frequency of flats does depend to some extent on how far
down you wear your tires.  In the past, my long-term average was
something like one flat every thousand miles with Paselas, Grand Bois
Cypres and Compass / Herse tires.  But I would typically run my tires
until they were squared off or worn down enough that the center of the
tread was noticeably thinner than the adjacent tread shoulders.

Then about a year and a half ago I started taking a medication that has
a major side effect of causing muscle cramps.  They can happen most
anywhere -- sometimes like the typical leg cramps that cyclists know so
well, but also they can affect the hands, especially the fingers.  These
finger cramps are strange -- sometimes people describe them as "almost
amusing" -- kind of resembling "trigger finger" where a finger will
lock, pointed off in a weird direction, and can't move without first
being "broken loose" with the other hand.  Although most anything can
kick one off, stretching the fingers into unusual positions or trying to
exert a lot of force will frequently trigger them.

Like, for example, trying to fix a flat by the side of the road. And the
faster you try to go, the more likely to trigger a cramp that will make
a hand useless and getting a tire on or off temporarily impossible. 
Curiously, changing tires or tubes at leisure at home is much less
likely to trigger a hand cramp than doing so in the field by the side of
the road.

So for the past year I've been trying to avoid flats by changing tires
before the tread gets so thin they become easy to puncture.   With the
Compass / Herse tires, that means replacing a tire when the center tread
lines completely disappear.  With the Loup Loup Pass 650Bx38 tires,
that's typically somewhere between 2,000 and 2,500 miles.  At that
point, the center of the tread feels about the same thickness as the
tread shoulders.  Since I started doing that, I've had no flats, and
although the Weigle has a beautiful seatstay-mounted pump I've never
once had to use it.

I'm accumulating a nice collection of tires that at one time I would
have said had at minimum hundreds of miles of life left in them,
possibly even a thousand miles of life left.  This flying in the face of
frugality used to bother me.  But, having experienced it when I first
started taking this medication, I know that the frustration and
discomfort of having my hands become useless while I'm trying to change
a flat by the side of the road bothers me a lot more.


--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Mike Packard]

I got over 2 years out of my rear RH barlow pass and am well past 3 on the front one. Flats are nowhere near the problem I thought they would be. Mostly riding commute/urban roads. Do it, you won't regret it.

mike

[ted]

Trying is knowing. Do it.

After riding strictly on tubulars for a couple decades I went back to clinches and never got results I was really happy with till I tried a pair of Grand Boise extralights I bought from Compass bikes (before JH introduced his like of tires). If you are at all interested in RH tires, I encourage you to try them. They were around and used very successfully by many folks before TC versions were even available.

I've had GrandBois extralight 32s, Soma GR (similarly "fragile" ~41mm), and two sets of Compass/RH extralight 38s on my 650b AHH. All run with tubes. I don't keep good records but I feel like I rarely get flats. Certainly go months at a time without one. I think I've had two sidewall cuts in my entire life, and one of those was on a continental "gatorskin".

My experience has been that the number of flats I get (using tubes) depends more on where and how I ride than it does on what tires I use. Most of the flats I get are from sharp thorns or debris that when pulled from the tire look like something that would have gone through any tire I would like to ride. E.g. riding continental gator skins didn't seem any more flat proof than light (no belt) Jack Browns, or Compass/RH extralights when I was commuting.

Abhorrence of goat heads, and the roadside debris that rains seem to bring onto the roadsides has me experimenting with tubeless on my BMC RoadPlus (WTB Byways set up by Mike V). For some conditions, I do like the sense of invulnerability they give me. But the set up with tubes is working so well on my AHH that, despite having wheels that give me the option, I'm not really considering changing that bike to tubeless.

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 6:37:46 AM UTC-7, Brady Smith wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

You most certainly do not need to run a tubeless compatible tire tubeless.  They're just fine with tubes.

On 6/15/20 10:16 AM, Benz, Sunnyvale, CA wrote:

I don't believe you need to run RH tubeless-compatible tires tubeless. These tires have a special bead that has been designed for tubeless installation and use, but are otherwise identical to their brethren that are not tubeless-compatible.

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Patrick Moore]

Ted: Wrestling in prayer not to jerk the thread onto a tangent, but giving in to sin with the consolation that the tangent isn't irrelevant: Do you find that the best GB and RH clinchers perform (criteria: rolling resistance, at least perceived, and cushioning over bumps of any sort) as well as tubulars? If no, can you explicate?

Thanks. Patrick "mea culpa, mea maxima culpa" Moore, in full confidence of the group's absolution.

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 10:51 AM ted <ted....@comcast.net> wrote:

Trying is knowing. Do it.

After riding strictly on tubulars for a couple decades I went back to clinches and never got results I was really happy with till I tried a pair of Grand Boise extralights I bought from Compass bikes (before JH introduced his like of tires). If you are at all interested in RH tires, I encourage you to try them. They were around and used very successfully by many folks before TC versions were even available.

[Pancake]

Also on Snoqualmie tires in Napa, CA.

When running with just tubes I got too many goat heat flats.

Switched to tubeless - no flats! But I once over inflated them (tubeless has a lower max pressure than with tubes - 60 vs 75 psi) and the rear tire blew off the rim, sealant everywhere about three blocks into that ride. My fault, don’t over inflate.

Switched to tubes with tubeless sealant - can’t justify running tubeless with the same tires again after they blew off the rim, apparently that makes it unwise to run the tubeless again. So switched to tubes with sealant (2 oz each) in them. No flats UNTIL two days ago when I ran over a broken drill bit. Nothing a tire or tube or sealant could do about this (see attached photo).

Abe

[Brady Smith]

Thanks everyone—almost everyone I’ve ever seen on Reddit talking about Herse tires claims to use them tubeless, but it figures I would find the tubed holdouts here. I’d say I’m convinced, and also just realized that my SKS P50 fenders will clear a 45mm tires, so Snoqualmie Pass it is!

[Mark Roland]

I run my Compass/RH all with tubes.

700x38 Barlow Pass EL

26" Rat Trap Pass EL

700 x 38 Steilacoom

Done D2R2 with each of the above, no flats. Very few flats overall. Initially ran the RTP with some sealant in the tubes, no longer bother. I am of the belief that flats are partially luck, partially environment, partially riding style and awareness, partially tire width and pressure. Lastly perhaps tire construction and rubber compound. Anyway, I seem to be getting the best of both worlds--great rolling and handling, plus fewer flats--with Rene Herse tires (with tubes.)

700 x 32 Stampede Pass EL, more of a "normal" flat rate (have not had these on a bike in a few years, about to build one up).  I attribute this to the well-observed phenomena of wider tires at lower pressure being less prone to get punctured by sharp objects.

[Austin B.]

I run Barlow Pass EL's tubed on my BMC Monstercross. No flats in two years.

It rides like buttah.

-Austin

[jack loudon]

I have used 3 sets of RH tires (all 700C, extralight) with tubes; 28mm, 35mm, and 38mm widths.  By rough estimate, I got flats on average every 2.5 weeks to 2 months, which translates to about 200 to 700 miles.  The 28's were the most flat-prone (due to higher pressure?), followed by the 38's and then the 35's.  The 38's were the early non-tubeless type and very lightweight, lighter than my 35's, and were a close second to the 28's in flat frequency. The 35's were okay, if you consider one flat every 2 months to be okay.   

My riding is split 80/20 between Seattle and semi-rural Northern CA.  Perhaps unsurprisingly, nearly all my flats have been in Seattle.  One day last year I got two flats in 3 hours and called it quits; the RH's came off and belted tires went on.  The RH tires exceeded my tolerance level for flats, though many of you may feel differently.  If I lived in a rural area with cleaner roads, I may also feel differently about RH tires, but for the present I prefer to give up some ride quality in exchange for better flat protection.  

Jack 

 

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 6:37:46 AM UTC-7, Brady Smith wrote:

I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I , walso recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat? I’m thinking about a set of Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires for my BMC Monster Cross. These would be summer fun tires for suburban and country roads. When it’s back to commuting season (whenever that happens...) I’d put my Pasela Protites back on. Thoughts? Thanks!

[ted]

Patrick M,

Hmmmmm.

First I'd encourage anybody who hasn't used tubulars, is up for the gluing aspect, and has an interest in it to give them a try.

Though I like my RH tires, I think comparing RH tires to tubulars is sort of apples to oranges. The tubulars I rode were 21 or 22 mm road racing (or training) tires. The good ones had a round cross section even before you inflated them, and they all had a round cross section when inflated. The effect of that roundness may have been primarily psychological, but somehow tubulars never felt as narrow as 23mm clinchers do to me. The tubulars gave a remarkably comfy ride even pumped to ~100psi. They also gave very immediate and responsive handling. It's possible the different wheel types played a roll too. I used light low profile rims like Arc En Ciel, and gl330 or gl280. I think even a "light" clincher rim like the Pacenti Brevet or the MA-40s that were ubiquitous in the 90s is significantly stiffer than those old tubular rims. Surely the more aero rims common today are.

I don't think my recollections are good enough to pass judgement on the relative rolling resistance compared to tires I ride these days, but I'd hazard a guess that they (the good hand made tubulars) roll more easily.

Most of the tires I ride now are a lot bigger than a road tubular. I like them a lot, they are comfy, and handle well if I don't run the pressure too low. But I don't think I would like riding those tires in a criterium, particularly not a technical downtown one (as opposes to a wide open course in a business park). Perhaps not even for a road race, where shoulder rubbing bar bumping crunches weren't unheard of either. However I don't do those things anymore so it's not really relevant for me.

The 26mm cayuse extralights mounted to Hed Ardennes+ rims on my BMC Road are probably close to a good hand made tubular, but I doubt they are quite the same. They are very nice though and I doubt Ill ever go to the trouble and expense of setting up a road bike just to have for riding tubulars when I want to do so. But I'd never call into question anybody else's decision to so.

[Jason Fuller]

Babyshoe Pass here, standard casing, 2 or 3 flats over 4500 km, no flats in the past 2500 km.  I find them long-wearing and plenty durable for my 70/30 mix of pavement and gravel. I really enjoy the ride they provide, but I've never ridden Gravel Kings which are probably pretty nice too.  

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Ted; your remarks incline me further toward trying tubulars, fatter than 22 mm, but still "road" width.

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[Mike E]

Maybe I misunderstood the comment. From what I've read the Extralights have the same tread thickness as the standards. Just the casing is different. Waiting for my first set of Extralights right now...;-)

[Steve Palincsar]

On 6/16/20 3:39 PM, Mike E wrote:

Maybe I misunderstood the comment. From what I've read the Extralights have the same tread thickness as the standards. Just the casing is different.

That is exactly correct.

Waiting for my first set of Extralights right now...;-)

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 8:16:40 AM UTC-7, Hugh Flynn wrote:

I'm mostly moving to standard casing when buying new tires now (just to have a little more rubber on the tires), but my experience with the extralights has certainly been surprising. 

So, as with all things tire-related, your mileage may vary, but I've sure been thrilled by the ride and durability of my Rene Herse tires with tubes.  

[Dan Vee]

Yep that is true. Same tread rubber less sidewall

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

I've had 650B x 42 Babyshoe Pass Extralights (with tubes) on my Rawland for almost three years now (I mounted them just before D2R2 in 2017 to replace worn Hetres). That bikes sees mostly pavement (from smooth-as-glass to pothole-ridden and debris-strewn), but I take it off-road whenever I can on gravel roads, canal towpaths, and rocky singletrack. I haven't had a flat yet.

Bob E

Cranford, NJ

[Ryan M.]

Back when I had my Roadeo I ran them with Compass Stampede Pass tires, standard casing, tubed. I don't remember getting flats with those, at least not abnormally so. I thought the ride was great with them.

Since then, I've ridden Antelope Hill tires, standard casing, tubeless using them on a mountain bike of mine. I love that combination when riding gravel and even on pavement. Such a great cushy tire. I have not had a flat on these.

I'm also riding Steilacoom, standard casing tires on a cyclocross bike and they have been dang good. I'm running those tubed though as the wheels I'm running them on are not tubeless compatible. No flats yet on them.

The only issue I've had out of any of these tires is finding the Antelope Hill tires breaking traction when going uphill on loose gravel roads, and that probably has more to do with me being a less than graceful rider. 

On Monday, June 15, 2020 at 8:37:46 AM UTC-5, Brady Smith wrote:

I’ve been Herse-curious for a while, but have always decided against them due to concerns about durability, especially since I don’t have tubeless-compatible rims. But I also recently read that Jan Heine actually runs his tubed, and I’ve encountered other people doing the same. Since there are lots of Herse-users here, I thought I’d ask about your experiences. Tubed or tubeless? How often do you flat? I’m thinking about a set of Snoqualmie or Barlow Pass tires for my BMC Monster Cross. These would be summer fun tires for suburban and country roads. When it’s back to commuting season (whenever that happens...) I’d put my Pasela Protites back on. Thoughts? Thanks!

[Brady Smith]

An update: I bought a pair of Snoqualmie Pass tires with the standard casing last week and set them up right away. They went on to my TB14 rims fairly easily and are an absolute joy to ride. Plenty fast on the road, but they really have me seeking out what limited gravel roads and trails we have out here in north NJ. Thanks for all the input!

[Joel Stern]

I just put on a set of standard Baby Pass with tubes.  I cannot speak of durability but they sure ride nice.  I’m keeping the PSI down to 40.