Disc Brake Pros and Cons

[Jan Heine]

Often, the cycling world seems split between those who absolutely love discs and those who think they are just awful. The reality, as so often, is more complex. After riding more than 20 bikes with disc brakes for significant distances (a typical Bicycle Quarterly test goes over 300-1000 km and lasts a few weeks), I found that discs have their applications, but they aren't my preferred brakes for just every bike. Read more about the pros and cons of disc brakes at

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/disc-brake-pros-and-cons/

Enjoy!

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

[George Schick]

Jan - just curious whether or not it would be worthwhile to throw linear-pull brakes into the mix of various rim brakes for comparison.  If I'm not mistaken, the main reason these "V-brakes" were developed in the first place was because of cable routing problems on certain MTB frames, especially those with dual suspensions.  However, my experience has been that the longer metal arms of linear-pull vs. the wire associated with cantilevers seem to give a more "solid" feel to the braking effort.  Any thoughts?

[Jan Heine]

Good question. Cantis and centerpulls really need good setup. Most use an oversized brake cable as a straddle wire, which needs to be set to conform to the straddle cable hanger, otherwise, it takes the first lever travel just to straighten the straddle wire. There are better ways to set up straddle cables, see

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2016/04/04/straddle-cables-done-right/

The biggest issue with V-brakes was that they did have a higher mechanical advantage (less slack meant you could set the pads closer to the rim), but that exacerbated the issues with flexing the fork blades and seatstays under hard braking.

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

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[Daniel Jackson]

Jan,

What is your pick these days for the best currently available cantilever brakes?

Thanks,

Daniel

[Jan Heine]

I wish I could answer that question. I haven't used any current-production cantis that were really elegant and top-notch. I like the old Mafacs for their simplicity and excellent function, but there are other ideas out there, too. It seems like a product that Compass should consider...

Jan Heine

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

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[ted]

Hey Jan,

Speaking of products Compass might consider ...

In the past I've seen posts wishing that Compass brakes were offered with yokes for mounting without brazed on posts.

Yesterday I saw (or at least think I saw) "with yoke and ..." options in the menu for Compass brakes.

Are you all developing tooling, and starting to produce new mounting yokes similar to the old Mafac Raid stock offering?

regards

ted

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 6:01:12 PM UTC-8, Jan Heine wrote:

I wish I could answer that question. I haven't used any current-production cantis that were really elegant and top-notch. I like the old Mafacs for their simplicity and excellent function, but there are other ideas out there, too. It seems like a product that Compass should consider...

Jan Heine

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 5:03 PM, Daniel Jackson <daniel.se...@gmail.com> wrote:

Jan,

What is your pick these days for the best currently available cantilever brakes?

Thanks,

Daniel

On Tuesday, January 10, 2017 at 9:54:23 AM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:

Often, the cycling world seems split between those who absolutely love discs and those who think they are just awful. The reality, as so often, is more complex. After riding more than 20 bikes with disc brakes for significant distances (a typical Bicycle Quarterly test goes over 300-1000 km and lasts a few weeks), I found that discs have their applications, but they aren't my preferred brakes for just every bike. Read more about the pros and cons of disc brakes at

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/01/10/disc-brake-pros-and-cons/

Enjoy!

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

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[Jan Heine]

We've sourced a number of yokes from old Mafac Raid brakes. They have been checked, polished and made better than new. Soon, we'll offer a limited number of brakes for bolt-on mounting... Stay tuned. (And if anybody has a set of Mafac Raid - not Racer - yokes or backing plates that they don't need because they mounted the brakes to brazed-on pivots, please get in touch...)

Commissioning a forging die for the backing plate and offer it as a regular model is unlikely, because the cost is so high. A CNC-machined yoke would have to be very beefy to withstand the loads, and it would look totally out of place with the slender forged arms of our brakes.

Jan Heine

Compass Cycles

www.compasscycle.com

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[ted]

Cool, nice of you all to go to the trouble.

[Ryan Ray]

Aren't the Paul neo-retros just updated mafac canti brakes? Maybe you guys could get a review set :)

- Ryan

[Bob K.]

Thanks for this article, Jan. It definitely speaks to my experience, although CPs are not my chosen rim brakes. I will hopefully have a chance to test out some CPs sometime soon.

My stable at the moment consists a Hillborne and a Surly Krampus--two very different bikes, indeed. On the Hillborne I use (admittedly cheap but quite functional when set up correctly) Tektro cr720s with Koolstop pads and Shimano Tiagra levers. I am very happy with the stopping power and modulation of the system. As a sidenote, the same brakes with MTB-style Tektro levers were far from optimal. The straddle cables were set up similarly and I had the correct levers based on the needed pull. It's a mystery to me.

Getting to the point of my post, on the Krampus, I have XT hydraulic discs, and the first time I took it on the trail I nearly rocketed over the handlebars on a descent because of the stopping power. I've since learned that there is plenty of modulation available with the hydros, but it takes much less force and more of a nuanced "feel" to find the sweet spot for each braking scenario. I can't imagine a time when I would need hydraulic discs on a road/gravel bike like my Hillborne--the cantis are more than adequate, and I imagine that nice CPs would be even better--but I'm thankful for their existence on my Krampus. Overall, It's a sour apples (cantis) to sweet oranges (hydros) comparison--both of which have myriad culinary uses, of course--and something that everyone should experience at some point, if only on a demo or loaner bike.

Bob K. in Baltimore

[Jan Heine]

The Pauls are nice in their own way, but they don't work well with racks that mount to the canti posts... 

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aren't the Paul neo-retros just updated mafac canti brakes? Maybe you guys could get a review set :)

- Ryan

[Ryan Ray]

Anyone tried the "CAMFAM" canti brakes from IRD?

- Ryan

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:09 AM Jan Heine <janhe...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Pauls are nice in their own way, but they don't work well with racks that mount to the canti posts... 

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aren't the Paul neo-retros just updated mafac canti brakes? Maybe you guys could get a review set :)





- Ryan

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[Clayton.sf]

my recent favorites have been the campagnolo cantilever (made by tektro). easy setup and some nice features.

Clayton Scott
SF, CA

[René Sterental]

I wonder why you say that. I mounted my rack using the adapters that Paul sells for precisely this option. Granted, without them it may be a hassle.

René 

On Wed, Jan 11, 2017 at 9:09 AM Jan Heine <janhe...@gmail.com> wrote:

The Pauls are nice in their own way, but they don't work well with racks that mount to the canti posts... 

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

On Tue, Jan 10, 2017 at 8:07 PM, Ryan Ray <ryan...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aren't the Paul neo-retros just updated mafac canti brakes? Maybe you guys could get a review set :)





- Ryan

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[Clayton.sf]

At least from my experience the adaptors "kick out" production racks too much so you end up with them sitting too high and the rack slanting up. For a custom rack that is not a problem though.

Clayton Scott

SF, CA

[Ryan Ray]

I actually prefer racks to slant up a bit. Far better than slanting down!

- Ryan

[Evan Baird]

While I agree that drop bar hydraulics feel loads better than mechanicals in terms of modulation, I'm curious whether Jan knows of any mechanical brakes that pass muster. My experience has been that using compressionless housing makes a huge difference in terms of power, but I haven't ridden the Paul Klampers or the TRP Spyres long enough to form any opinion. I ask because I'm planning to try an Ultra Romance style non aero disc brake combo on my Ravn build, and you better believe I'm going to ride that thing on singletrack.

[Tim Gavin]

I use TRP Hy/Rds on my Foundry Auger, with TRP Pro compressionless housing.  The Hy/Rds are worlds better than the BB7R's that I used previously, and almost as good as XT or Guide MTB hydraulic brakes.

The secret (same as with any mechanical disc brake) is to keep the rotor really true so that you can run with the pads really tight.  That results in short lever thrown and a nice, tight feel.

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 4:09 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

While I agree that drop bar hydraulics feel loads better than mechanicals in terms of modulation, I'm curious whether Jan knows of any mechanical brakes that pass muster. My experience has been that using compressionless housing makes a huge difference in terms of power, but I haven't ridden the Paul Klampers or the TRP Spyres long enough to form any opinion. I ask because I'm planning to try an Ultra Romance style non aero disc brake combo on my Ravn build, and you better believe I'm going to ride that thing on singletrack.

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[Jan Heine]

It seems that mechanical discs need larger rotors than hydraulics, that is all. We tested a Jones with 200 mm rotors and mechanical (mtb) Shimano discs (XT, I recall), and they were very powerful, but a bit too grabby.

All the bikes we've tested recently with 160 mm rotors (mostly TRP Spyre brakes) were "almost" fine, but not quite as powerful as a good centerpull. That seems to indicate that 180 mm is worth a try...

Jan Heine

Editor

Bicycle Quarterly

www.bikequarterly.com

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

While I agree that drop bar hydraulics feel loads better than mechanicals in terms of modulation, I'm curious whether Jan knows of any mechanical brakes that pass muster. My experience has been that using compressionless housing makes a huge difference in terms of power, but I haven't ridden the Paul Klampers or the TRP Spyres long enough to form any opinion. I ask because I'm planning to try an Ultra Romance style non aero disc brake combo on my Ravn build, and you better believe I'm going to ride that thing on singletrack.

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[Patrick Moore]

My Road BB7s work -- stop and feel -- as well as any centerpull I've used, except that they don't modulate as well, using Jagwire housing and old 740n Dura Ace levers. There is a trick to setting them up that I learned on the web: attach the cable to the actuation arms when the latter have been moved through about 1/3 of their travel, not when they are fully relaxed. This allows more pad distance while also allowing a "feel" like any caliper I've used, with very good stopping power. Stock rotors; 160 mm?

Very much better than the previous MTB BB7s with V brake levers in both pad clearance and feel; stopping power about the same; same rotors.

Note that the older version of these road BB7s were among the worst brakes I've ever used, with the same levers and Jagwire housing.

Note also that it is possible that I have a lower performance bar than others may, but I have set up scores of brakes of every different sort over almost 50 years of tinkering.

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

While I agree that drop bar hydraulics feel loads better than mechanicals in terms of modulation, I'm curious whether Jan knows of any mechanical brakes that pass muster. My experience has been that using compressionless housing makes a huge difference in terms of power, but I haven't ridden the Paul Klampers or the TRP Spyres long enough to form any opinion. I ask because I'm planning to try an Ultra Romance style non aero disc brake combo on my Ravn build, and you better believe I'm going to ride that thing on singletrack.

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[Patrick Moore]

Question: I have been procrastinating on a project to remove the interrupter levers (I expect I'll get a bit more precision in the brakes' actuation with all the related junctions removed), but I want to do this eventually. I have a Yokuzuna kit that can replace the Jagwire. Is the Yokuzuna housing sufficiently better than Jagwire to make the swap worthwhile, or should I save the Y for some other time or project?

[George Schick]

Patrick - I'd add one more item to your list.  I've got a BB7 on the front of my Surly 1x1 and for years I had trouble with the pads rubbing the rotor, making noises while riding - just as Jan has pointed out as a potential shortcoming of discs.  I tried everything; trued the rotor, changed the rotor to new, changed to higher quality pads, etc.  Nothing worked as a lasting solution.  Finally, I bought a solid axle to replace the QR that came with the hub, installed it, and bolted it onto the fork.  No problems whatsoever since then including rubbing noise or adjustment issues.

I'm concluding that some disc units on some forks (especially with QR) may present ongoing problems that only a bolted-on hub will prevent.  Now, the BB7 is a lower quality mechanical disc unit so maybe high-end units are different.  I also have an early 2000's Trek Fuel 90 MTB (equipped with QR hubs, BTW) that came equipped with Hayes hydro units and they were a continual problem - rubbed or even just plain locked up all the time.  I final threw in the towel on 'em last year and upgraded the entire system to Shimano's highest-end brakes.  Nary a problem ever since - smooth braking, no grabbing, no rubbing.  And the LBS that I bought the Shimano unit from immediately acknowledged the PITA they'd always had with Hayes brakes.  So maybe there are a myriad of factors at work and if one gets stuck with an unworkable set up they just have to experiment around until they find out what solves the problem. 

On Friday, January 13, 2017 at 4:59:20 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

My Road BB7s work -- stop and feel -- as well as any centerpull I've used, except that they don't modulate as well, using Jagwire housing and old 740n Dura Ace levers. There is a trick to setting them up that I learned on the web: attach the cable to the actuation arms when the latter have been moved through about 1/3 of their travel, not when they are fully relaxed. This allows more pad distance while also allowing a "feel" like any caliper I've used, with very good stopping power. Stock rotors; 160 mm?

Very much better than the previous MTB BB7s with V brake levers in both pad clearance and feel; stopping power about the same; same rotors.

Note that the older version of these road BB7s were among the worst brakes I've ever used, with the same levers and Jagwire housing.

Note also that it is possible that I have a lower performance bar than others may, but I have set up scores of brakes of every different sort over almost 50 years of tinkering.

On Fri, Jan 13, 2017 at 3:09 PM, Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com> wrote:

While I agree that drop bar hydraulics feel loads better than mechanicals in terms of modulation, I'm curious whether Jan knows of any mechanical brakes that pass muster. My experience has been that using compressionless housing makes a huge difference in terms of power, but I haven't ridden the Paul Klampers or the TRP Spyres long enough to form any opinion. I ask because I'm planning to try an Ultra Romance style non aero disc brake combo on my Ravn build, and you better believe I'm going to ride that thing on singletrack.

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[Evan Baird]

Now that I think about it isn't this discussion a little OT for Riv? I remember somebody was threatening to put disc tabs on an Atlantis at one point, but i don't think I've actually seen it done. Am I wrong? If post post the link cuz now I'm curious.

[Mark in Beacon]

I think the subject itself is pretty on topic as the Riv Blug has had a number of essays covering this subject. I recall that Mr. Petersen was contemplating a disc tab for the rear of the HBH tandem at one point.

[Garth]

Oh ... close enough to OT to be OT..... whatever that "on topic" may or may not include.

Disc brakes ? Maybe some day, like when/if I realy need them and when/if ever there is some sort of standard to the standard, becàuse now it's a free-for-aĺl. Maybe those days are gone though, it seems so. I can see why retail bike shops would have such a hard time, you now need a separate warehouse for all the different parts for all the different standards.


The Good things of life don't need fixed and replaced, and that is why the good is so absolutely good, for nothing else matters but this.

[Patrick Moore]

Very good points, George. 

Question: what model/version of the BB7s are you using? Are they mountain or road? New or old?

For the record, all my disc setups (all 3 have been BB7s, 1 or 2 mountain of the circa 2012 or so vintage; 2 road, one circa 2010, one 2016) have been installed on bikes with hollow QR axles. I did notice some pad rub -- but only sometimes! Usually after riding several miles in fine sand or dust -- when I stood, this with the mt version and V brake drop levers; but not with the current roads.

If I were to replace my current BB7s, I'd look closely at the Spyres and Klampers; but I am very pleased to say that, so far, I am very, very pleased with the current version of the BB7 road model.

Speaking to Garth's post: I think mechanical disc brakes are pretty well sorted out by now, at least to judge by my late model BB7s, which scuttlebutt says are not as good as Spyres and Klampers. They work pretty damned well!

Value for discs: IMO, only for dirty riding where rim brakes can wear out rims quickly; and of course for wet riding, if you like. They also let you use very light rims, like the Velocity Blunt SS:

http://www.wiggle.com/velocity-rims-blunt-ss-mtb-rim/?lang=us&curr=USD&dest=18&sku=5360699424&kpid=5360699424&utm_source=google&utm_term&utm_campaign=US_PLA_High+Margin&utm_medium=base&utm_content=mkwid%7csxoSZlk5w_dc%7cpcrid%7c96364502648%7cpkw%7c%7cpmt%7c%7cprd%7c5360699424us

[George Schick]

Man, that was a tough request.  I had to do some digging, but I finally found the original invoice from the on-line shop where I bought it.  The invoice is dated October, 2004 and the Avid disc brake assembly was listed as BR7082.  Not sure what that means - an Avid part number or the shop's inventory part number.  Anyway, it evidently dates back to pretty early in the BB7 scheme and you raise valid points about improvements that the manf. probably made over the last decade+.  I keep saying "it" because I only bought one for the front and have a V-brake on the rear because back then Surly didn't have a good way of removing the wheel with those rear facing dropouts if it was set up with a disc brake back there. Looking back on the purchase, I think I would've used V-brakes both front and back if I had to do it all over again.