Extreme Exercize

[Michael Hechmer]

A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the benefits of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this research report:

http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-may-damage-heart.aspx?e_cid=20120125_DNL_art_1

I have to admit, I have long since gotten over any urge to do anything that smacks of "training", so perhaps this appeals to my preconceived desires.

blessings,

michael

[Grant Petersen]

Super neat and thanks, Michael. I love this stuff...as you've supposed. I'll finish reading it tonite. Thank you, really, for sending..

--
Grant
Rivendell Bicycle Works
www.rivbike.com
925 933 7304

[robert zeidler]

I quit racing in '92-having to pay to wait around all day just sucked. But I like "training ", I like competing against self in a strictly selfish way. I do send my times to people, but only because they've asked me to.

I've been shocked at how many elite triathletes end up with pacemakers and assorted other ailments related to the heart. But it takes really sick efforts to make one, well, really sick.

In between we have Randonneuring. Which is nothing more than racing when you come down to it. I love Jan Heine, and am inspired by his travels. But if/when I ever ride across France, it ain't gonna be at night. If I climb the Tourmalet, it's gonna be in bright sunshine, not just a check on a list as part of some private-parts measurement story for my friends.

Cyclotouring to me, and as it applies to this group, seems to strike the right balance. Travel, good health, good scenery, good food, hopefully shared with like-minded good people.

I 'm not against the extremes, but as a way of life....I don't get it. I have an ongoing dialogue with Jill Homer on this very topic.

Sorry to ramble, but I think about it quite a bit.

RGZ

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[dougP]

On Jan 25, 6:06 pm, robert zeidler

I love Jan Heine, and am inspired by his travels. But
> if/when I ever ride across France, it ain't gonna be at night. If I climb
> the Tourmalet, it's gonna be in bright sunshine,

A friend teaches a basic cycling course, and one of his lessons is "If
you're not having fun, you're doing something wrong." Jan seemed to
have a lot of fun on that Pyrennes ride he wrote about, but recall
that there were references about times where his inner cyclotourist
and his randonneur argued, one wanting to explore & the other wanting
to make time. Not an uncommon tension for any cyclist. I'm always
glad to read stories by people who've done exceptional rides like
that.

But I'm with Robert on doing scenic rides when you can see something.
And take photos.

dougP

On Jan 25, 6:06 pm, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I quit racing in '92-having to pay to wait around all day just sucked. But
> I like "training ", I like competing against self in a strictly selfish
> way. I do send my times to people, but only because they've asked me to.
>
> I've been shocked at how many elite triathletes end up with pacemakers and
> assorted other ailments related to the heart. But it takes really sick
> efforts to make one, well, really sick.
>
> In between we have Randonneuring. Which is nothing more than racing when
> you come down to it. I love Jan Heine, and am inspired by his travels. But
> if/when I ever ride across France, it ain't gonna be at night. If I climb
> the Tourmalet, it's gonna be in bright sunshine, not just a check on a list
> as part of some private-parts measurement story for my friends.
>
> Cyclotouring to me, and as it applies to this group, seems to strike the
> right balance. Travel, good health, good scenery, good food, hopefully
> shared with like-minded good people.
>
> I 'm not against the extremes, but as a way of life....I don't get it. I
> have an ongoing dialogue with Jill Homer on this very topic.
>
> Sorry to ramble, but I think about it quite a bit.
>
> RGZ
>
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2012, Grant Petersen <gr...@rivbike.com> wrote:
> > Super neat and thanks, Michael. I love this stuff...as you've supposed.
>
> I'll finish reading it tonite. Thank you, really, for sending..
>

> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> >> A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the
>
> benefits of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this
> research report:
>

> http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-ma...

>
> >> I have to admit, I have long since gotten over any urge to do anything
>
> that smacks of "training", so perhaps this appeals to my preconceived
> desires.>> blessings,
> >> michael
>
> > --
> > Grant
> > Rivendell Bicycle Works
> >www.rivbike.com
> > 925 933 7304
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
>
>

> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[rcnute]

I saw headlines the last couple days that the risks of fried food were
overstated and eating chocolate prevents bowel cancer. Things are
looking up.

Ryan

On Jan 25, 5:29 pm, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com> wrote:
> A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the benefits
> of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this research report:
>

> http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-ma...

[Manuel Acosta]

Awww.. So does that me I can't start racing cyclocross now? I was
looking forward on hellish training rides, that make me want to throw
up...

On Jan 25, 5:29 pm, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the benefits
> of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this research report:
>

> http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-ma...

[robert zeidler]

And that's no knock on Jan. Just the extreme ethos.
It's the same thinking that gave us competitive birding. Taking an elegant pastime and turning it into an endurance test.

[Lyle Bogart]

Thanks for posting that, Michael.

 

There's indeed a growing body of evidence that strongly suggests or links high endurance activities to a number of cardiac/cardiovascular pathologies with atrial fibrillation being the most prevalent pathology. Interesting there are some studies which suggest the very low-resting heart-rate of highly endurance-trained folks with the development of Afib.

 

I've been unable to find any studies linking interval-type activities or training to similar pathologies.

 

Long ago I gave up on routinely doing long-endurance training or activities. I prefer the interval form of training, mostly incorporating resistance training and plyometrtics. On the bike, if my intent is more "training" than going for a "nice ride," I'll take the fixed-gear for a whirl over some good hilly terrain. Interestingly, this type of training or activity (interval) always leaves me feeling fresher than a more traditional cardio (steady-state) activity.

 

Cheers!

 

lyle

--
lyle f bogart dpt

156 bradford rd

wiscasset, me 04578

207.882.6494

206.794.6937

[Lyle Bogart]

Ooops!  I had intended to include this link:

 

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/diseased-heart-or-athlete-s-heart-sometimes-they-look-strangely-similar

 

Very clear and concise, I thought. Good links within, too.

 

lyle

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 25, 9:06 pm, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> But it takes really sick
> efforts to make one, well, really sick.

that's a very good point. most folks will never approach the training
levels of elite athletes - their "training" is very different than
recreational athletes. most folks can't spend 10 minutes near their
anaerobic threshold, let alone 3+ hours like elite endurance athletes
commonly do. there's a world of difference here, and frankly it's
just not something most of us need to be concerned about.

I'd add that while high intensity (anaerobic) exercise definitely has
it's benefits, it's a sure fire way to get injured if one doesn't
prime the body for those efforts.

[robert zeidler]

...and when I'm riding in the great State of Vermont, it's always worth the work.

[jimD]

Robert,

Uh, what's this 'competitive birding' thingy?

-JimD

[robert zeidler]

Where bird watchers compete to observe the most new (to them) birds in a given period. I think there was even a movie about it.

Likewise, the Ironbutt Assoc has taken an elegant form of travel, motorcycle touring, and turned it into an extreme endurance event, The IronButt Rally, where riders travel 11,000 miles in 10 days, picking up various bonus points along the way, in a timed event.

Just a matter if time until we have extreme bowling.

[René Sterental]

Where are those references to chocolate as bowel cancer prevention?

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 26, 10:42 am, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Just a matter if time until we have extreme bowling.

Another good point. What is driving people to the "extreme,"
especially amateur athletes? Of course, it's all relative - but I
think for many amateur/recreational athletes, once the sense of
accomplishment that came from completing an endurance event (let's say
a marathon) becomes stale or commonplace (now that it is fairly common
to see people walking large parts of marathons), they want to push
harder for a PR or go farther to regain that sense of accomplishment.
I have no evidence of this, but the current boom with triathlon and
"extreme" (in the Mt. Dew/X-games sense of the word) endurance events,
like the Tough Mudder, seem to be a direct result of events like a
marathon becoming too average. there's no cachet to it anymore. so
they go bigger, and that's a slippery slope. it's really pretty ego-
centric.

like most things, i think there's a healthy balance. it's good to
have goals. challenge ourselves a little, or even a lot. competing,
even at the recreational/amateur level, can be a very motivating,
healthy experience for people of all ages. I also think there is a
misconception about "training" - the athlete the exercises with the
intent to compete can be said to "train," but it's just exercise. in
other words, anybody who enjoys doing any kind of aerobic exercise for
more than 30mins is training. we can't go out and enjoy a couple
hours on our favorite roads without maintaining some aerobic
fitness. and anybody who wants to improve their fitness - maybe be a
little stronger on the hills or turn a 15mile ride into a 30mile ride
- is training. competitive athletes just exercise a little
differently. and i bet a lot people would be surprised at what a
structured "training" program looks for a competitive amateur
cyclist .. .. it's not killing yourself everyday or working so hard
that you want to throw up. far from it.

[Esteban]

I absolutely love riding randonees. Sure, it hurts, and sure negative
thoughts creep into one's head - but that what makes them adventures.
You meet your demons (at your own pace - within a generous time limit)
and defeat them. Its hard to explain - I'm certainly not doing a good
job at it.

But one of the reasons I enjoy it is that I never train for
randonneuring. "Training" is a great way to ruin something fun. If I
can ride a century now and then, I can do a 200K. If I can do a 200K,
then a 300K and 400K are totally possible (that's my limit so far).
Its mostly about hanging on.

Best of all, you get to spend a whole day on the bike. I've done
randonees at a relatively relaxed pace, spending time at controls with
coffee, soup, and usually good company. I've also tried to hustle. On
those rides, I almost always go into "limp-home mode" at one time or
another. Sensible gearing helps with that - and there's always,
*always* a second, third, or fourth wind.

All this being said, cyclotouring is by far my favorite kind of riding
besides everyday wandering. It just takes a bit more time and money.

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

[robert zeidler]

Cycling, while I love as much as any activety, and certainly more than work, is only one of the things I want to do in life.

On Thursday, January 26, 2012, Patrick in VT <swin...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Beth H]

Heavens, no!
Go ahead and race.
If you're concerned about extreme efforts, do what I often do and
finish DFL.
When I do this I see the beautiful absurdity of it all and end my
evenings laughing out loud.
Works every time.
Beth

On Jan 25, 9:01 pm, Manuel Acosta <manueljohnaco...@hotmail.com>
wrote:

[jimD]

Many of my non bicycler friends think that riding 25 miles is Xtreme.

It's a strange thing that as a country we have increasing rates of obesity and great fascination with

Xtreme physical events. 

 Do I recall correctly that there is/was a tv show having something to 

do with Xtreme food or eating?

Xtremely yours,

JimD

[Lyle Bogart]

In the research I've been looking at, one of the points left unclear to me is how much is too much. In certain of the studies, the subjects are elite road cyclist, ultra-runners, or elite nordic ski racers. In others, the subjects are referred to as "long-time endurance exercisers" which is, to me, a bit opaque, though contextually I take to mean on a par with "recreational" marathon runners.

 

However, the points which keep coming back to me are the chronicity of the activity (how many years a person has been performing this type of activity) and the findings associated with chronic systemic inflammation (a systemic "stress response") marked by elevated levels of C-reactive protein and interleukin-6, both of which are known markers of cardiac disease/dysfunction. Some researchers are finding they may be predictive of cardiac disease.

 

To me, this suggests that, as with so many things, and as Patrick in Vt noted, the key is balance and not just in exercise but in Life. My patients and clients who find themselves under high levels of stress at times (physical or psycho-emotional) are encouraged to back off their exercise programs until the stressors are reduced (think accountants around tax-time) since the body doesn't differentiate "good stress" (exercise is good for me!) from "bad stress" (gawd, I hate my job!).

Cheers!

 

lyle

[robert zeidler]

I just did a brevet in Gainesville. 200k, nothing too nuts. Big fun.
It IS a free country so to each his/her own. Riding all night is Ok if that's one choice.

But not in south of France unless that's where you ride all the time.

[Anne Paulson]

I agree. I love to ride my bike, and I like long rides. When I'm out
riding, sometimes someone asks whether I'm training for something.
"Training for something?" I say. "No. This is the thing, riding my
bike."

On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:49 AM, Esteban <prot...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> But one of the reasons I enjoy it is that I never train for
> randonneuring.  "Training" is a great way to ruin something fun. If I
> can ride a century now and then, I can do a 200K.  If I can do a 200K,
> then a 300K and 400K are totally possible (that's my limit so far).
> Its mostly about hanging on.

--
-- Anne Paulson

My hovercraft is full of eels

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 26, 12:39 pm, Lyle Bogart <lylebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the research I've been looking at, one of the points left unclear to me
> is how much is too much. In certain of the studies, the subjects are elite
> road cyclist, ultra-runners, or elite nordic ski racers. In others, the
> subjects are referred to as "long-time endurance exercisers" which is, to
> me, a bit opaque, though contextually I take to mean on a par with
> "recreational" marathon runners.

I'd like to see some clarification there too. elite level athletes
are working at higher levels of intensity for longer durations than
the vast majority of recreational athletes. and the amount and type
of training it takes to run a sub 3 hour marathon is very different
than what it takes the recreational runner to finish 6 hour marathon.
again, there's just a world of difference between these two athletes
and context is key. i'll be racing elite level cyclocross next year
as a Cat 2, but i do not consider myself "elite" compared to those who
are actually winning the races. there's yet another world - and I
mean *world* - of difference between me and those athletes and I'm
under no illusion of ever being able to close that gap for exactly the
reasons being discussed here - health, balance, time, other interests,
etc.

anyway, "how much is too much" could probably be answered (generally,
at least) by a performance threshold - i.e., if one wants to compete
at the top levels of a given sport, they might be flirting with "too
much" given the amount of training it takes to compete at that level.
or put another way, i don't think the twice a year 6 hour marathoner
needs to be concerned about cardiac damage. Chrissie Wellington
(elite female triathlete) on the other hand? that's just
unfathomable training and it's not inconceivable that training like
that isn't the best for long term health.

[PATRICK MOORE]

And this just in! "Drunk to bed" (Enobarbus, of course -- what, you
don't know who he is???*) prolongs life.

Seriously, although I continually shout that the only valid reason for
cycling (beside transportation for the poor) is fun, I am only
gradually crow-barring away the compulsion to make every ride a time
trial. (Usually a slow motion time trial.) But things are looking up
and it is good to have theoretical support.

*

Act I, Scene 2

The same. Another room.

[Enter CHARMIAN, IRAS, ALEXAS, and a Soothsayer]

Charmian. Lord Alexas, sweet Alexas, most any thing Alexas,
almost most absolute Alexas, where's the soothsayer 80
that you praised so to the queen? O, that I knew
this husband, which, you say, must charge his horns
with garlands!

Alexas. Soothsayer!

Soothsayer. Your will?85

Charmian. Is this the man? Is't you, sir, that know things?

Soothsayer. In nature's infinite book of secrecy
A little I can read.

Alexas. Show him your hand.

[Enter DOMITIUS ENOBARBUS]

Domitius Enobarus. Bring in the banquet quickly; wine enough
Cleopatra's health to drink.

Charmian. Good sir, give me good fortune.

Soothsayer. I make not, but foresee.

Charmian. Pray, then, foresee me one.95

Soothsayer. You shall be yet far fairer than you are.

Charmian. He means in flesh.

Iras. No, you shall paint when you are old.

Charmian. Wrinkles forbid!

Alexas. Vex not his prescience; be attentive.100

Charmian. Hush!

Soothsayer. You shall be more beloving than beloved.

Charmian. I had rather heat my liver with drinking.

Alexas. Nay, hear him.

Charmian. Good now, some excellent fortune! Let me be married 105
to three kings in a forenoon, and widow them all:
let me have a child at fifty, to whom Herod of Jewry
may do homage: find me to marry me with Octavius
Caesar, and companion me with my mistress.

Soothsayer. You shall outlive the lady whom you serve.110

Charmian. O excellent! I love long life better than figs.

Soothsayer. You have seen and proved a fairer former fortune
Than that which is to approach.

Charmian. Then belike my children shall have no names:
prithee, how many boys and wenches must I have?115

Soothsayer. If every of your wishes had a womb.
And fertile every wish, a million.

Charmian. Out, fool! I forgive thee for a witch.

Alexas. You think none but your sheets are privy to your wishes.

Charmian. Nay, come, tell Iras hers.120

Alexas. We'll know all our fortunes.

Domitius Enobarus. Mine, and most of our fortunes, to-night, shall
be—drunk to bed.

Iras. There's a palm presages chastity, if nothing else.

Charmian. E'en as the o'erflowing Nilus presageth famine.125

Iras. Go, you wild bedfellow, you cannot soothsay.

Charmian. Nay, if an oily palm be not a fruitful
prognostication, I cannot scratch mine ear. Prithee,
tell her but a worky-day fortune.

Soothsayer. Your fortunes are alike.130

Iras. But how, but how? give me particulars.

Soothsayer. I have said.

Iras. Am I not an inch of fortune better than she?

Charmian. Well, if you were but an inch of fortune better than
I, where would you choose it?135

Iras. Not in my husband's nose.

Charmian. Our worser thoughts heavens mend! Alexas,—come,
his fortune, his fortune! O, let him marry a woman
that cannot go, sweet Isis, I beseech thee! and let
her die too, and give him a worse! and let worst 140
follow worse, till the worst of all follow him
laughing to his grave, fifty-fold a cuckold! Good
Isis, hear me this prayer, though thou deny me a
matter of more weight; good Isis, I beseech thee!

Iras. Amen. Dear goddess, hear that prayer of the people! 145
for, as it is a heartbreaking to see a handsome man
loose-wived, so it is a deadly sorrow to behold a
foul knave uncuckolded: therefore, dear Isis, keep
decorum, and fortune him accordingly!

Charmian. Amen.150

Alexas. Lo, now, if it lay in their hands to make me a
cuckold, they would make themselves whores, but
they'ld do't!

Domitius Enobarus. Hush! here comes Antony.

Charmian. Not he; the queen.

> --
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--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html

[awilliams53]

Validates the wisdom of Satchel Paige, who said, among other things,
'Avoid running at all times!'


http://lawsoflife.co.uk/paiges-rules-for-living/


Andy

On Jan 25, 5:29 pm, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the benefits
> of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this research report:
>

> http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-ma...

[PATRICK MOORE]

I'll add to this that even far-from-elite athletes can be hurt by
"overtraining". When I was, 4 times a week, riding the 16 miles each
way between home and work, W-E across Albuquerque -- Central from
Unser (actually entered Central at Atrisco) to Juan Tabo -- with some
6 or 7 miles of climbing, in under 60 minutes including stops (often
on a fixed gear), and always with a load, I was also regularly on the
verge of sinus and throat infections, not to mention chronic fatigue.
It was fun to overtake and keep ahead of the Route 66 bus, though.
Can't do that now, 10 years later (almost 57)!

Note that it was about the same time that I was diagnosed with
arrhythmia, tho' I don't know if the two were related. I did have a
very low resting pulse. (I avoided beta blockers by a 18 month regimen
of Chinese medicine (a quart a day of various, horrible, horrible
witches-brew herbal potions -- dark, oily, scummy -- patent pills and
accupuncture imposed by my ex who is a DOM as well as MD.)

> --
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>

--

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 26, 12:39 pm, Lyle Bogart <lylebog...@gmail.com> wrote:

> In the research I've been looking at, one of the points left unclear to me
> is how much is too much.

okay, so I read the abstract and related articles linked in the Peak
Fitness article regarding the La Gerche study. To put "extreme" into
context as we are discussing it, "highly trained" athletes are doing
3+ hour events and train for several hours a day (10+hours/week),
resulting in workloads of 200–300 METs (metabolic equivalent of task)
per week, which is 5–10 times greater than the exercise
recommendations for preventing heart disease (I read that as
recreational sporting - maybe 30mins/day at low intensity). MET is
basically an index of the intensity of physical activities (not a very
good one, because their is a lot variance based on individual
physiology), but good enough for comparison's sake here.

Not only that, but the intensity at which these "highly trained"
athletes are performing during their events is off the charts are far
as we are concerned - the athletes tested in the La Gerche study
finished in the top 25% of their field. At that level, athletes are
capable of working at 85-95% of the their max heart rate for long
periods of time. We're not talking recreational/amateur stuff here.

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 26, 4:57 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'll add to this that even far-from-elite athletes can be hurt by
> "overtraining".

"overtraining" as you describe it is very different than the training
described in the study. Proper training includes rest and recovery.
The average athlete who does structured training might only do 2 hard
workouts a week because to dig deep and get the desired physiological
adaptations from those workouts, one has to be well rested. Going too
hard too often leads to "overtraining" and exactly what you
experienced - it's a major setback and can actually be kind of tricky
to bounce back from.

Interestingly enough, your own pulse can provide feedback injury,
illness, incomplete recovery, etc. it's also a great way to measure
and monitor improvements in fitness, which is why so many folks use
heart-rate monitors to train - both during exercise and recovery.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Yes, I know: I meant to say that even at a far lower level of talent
and exertion, you can hurt yourself by overdoing it.

[charlie]

I'm thinking the 'walking pace' level can be sustained for hours
(safely).....the one that gets you in the fat burning zone. Higher
intensity efforts are for intervals. Shorter, higher intensity rides,
two hours or less are better for you (for health) in my opinion. The
two hour limit at higher intensity is just about right since our
muscles are depleted by then anyway. I'll bet quite a few of us have
or are 'overtraining' on a regular basis and I believe this can set us
average people up for heart problems or overuse injuries also. The
genetically superior folks just go faster but I think we can do the
same damage exercising at our 85% zone too. I've never enjoyed rides
that lasted more than about 4 hours no matter how much or how little
effort I put out. My @$$, hands or feet always seem to give me
adequate clues that I am overdoing it. Exercise junkie was a common
term I heard over the years to describe someone addicted to doing too
much.....too often we forget the law of diminishing returns.

On Jan 26, 4:53 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yes, I know: I meant to say that even at a far lower level of talent
> and exertion, you can hurt yourself by overdoing it.
>

> On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 5:40 PM, Patrick in VT <swing4...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Jan 26, 4:57 pm, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> I'll add to this that even far-from-elite athletes can be hurt by
> >> "overtraining".
>
> > "overtraining" as you describe it is very different than the training
> > described in the study.  Proper training includes rest and recovery.
> > The average athlete who does structured training might only do 2 hard
> > workouts a week because to dig deep and get the desired physiological
> > adaptations from those workouts, one has to be well rested.  Going too
> > hard too often leads to "overtraining" and exactly what you
> > experienced - it's a major setback and can actually be kind of tricky
> > to bounce back from.
>
> > Interestingly enough, your own pulse can provide feedback injury,
> > illness, incomplete recovery, etc.  it's also a great way to measure
> > and monitor improvements in fitness, which is why so many folks use
> > heart-rate monitors to train - both during exercise and recovery.
>
> > --
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[Chris Lampe]

I recently got interested in Randonneuring as a very long-term riding
goal and during my research I found a story a guy wrote about an event
that included himself, Jan Heine and another guy. Jan ended the trip
fine, the other guy had to be carried home and the author of the story
ended up in the hospital. I hope that situation is an anomaly in the
sport but it certainly made me lose interest.

My preferred ride tends to be an interval workout. I tend to ride
hard, ride easy to recover, ride hard, ride easy to recover, etc..,
etc.... The upper end of the timing is a bit less than an hour. I
once bought a road bike and tried longer distance at a steady pace but
didn't much care for it. I think what I'm doing is probably more
healthy and is certainly more fun for me.



On Jan 25, 8:06 pm, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I quit racing in '92-having to pay to wait around all day just sucked. But
> I like "training ", I like competing against self in a strictly selfish
> way. I do send my times to people, but only because they've asked me to.
>
> I've been shocked at how many elite triathletes end up with pacemakers and
> assorted other ailments related to the heart. But it takes really sick

> efforts to make one, well, really sick.
>

> In between we have Randonneuring. Which is nothing more than racing when
> you come down to it. I love Jan Heine, and am inspired by his travels. But
> if/when I ever ride across France, it ain't gonna be at night. If I climb
> the Tourmalet, it's gonna be in bright sunshine, not just a check on a list
> as part of some private-parts measurement story for my friends.
>
> Cyclotouring to me, and as it applies to this group, seems to strike the
> right balance. Travel, good health, good scenery, good food, hopefully
> shared with like-minded good people.
>
> I 'm not against the extremes, but as a way of life....I don't get it. I
> have an ongoing dialogue with Jill Homer on this very topic.
>
> Sorry to ramble, but I think about it quite a bit.
>
> RGZ
>
> On Wednesday, January 25, 2012, Grant Petersen <gr...@rivbike.com> wrote:
> > Super neat and thanks, Michael. I love this stuff...as you've supposed.
>
> I'll finish reading it tonite. Thank you, really, for sending..
>
> > On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 5:29 PM, Michael Hechmer <mhech...@gmail.com>

> wrote:
>
> >> A while back the Riv Reader published an article challenging the
>
> benefits of ultra endurance events.  With that in mind, I offer this
> research report:
>
> http://fitness.mercola.com/sites/fitness/archive/2012/01/25/cardio-ma...
>
> >> I have to admit, I have long since gotten over any urge to do anything
>
> that smacks of "training", so perhaps this appeals to my preconceived
> desires.>> blessings,
> >> michael
>

> > --
> > Grant
> > Rivendell Bicycle Works
> >www.rivbike.com
> > 925 933 7304

>
> > --
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>
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>
> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at
>
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
>
>

> - Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Doug]

Can't really assess Mercola's claims concerning exercise physiology
since it's not my field, but I encourage y'all to take his articles
with a grain of salt. Mercola is well known in scientific circles as a
hack, marketer and opportunist who likes to play fast and loose with
the facts. Mercola's rants against the use of fluoride in dentistry
relegate him to the lunatic fringe on that subject. He enjoys
virtually zero credibility in the scientific community.

[JL]

I don't have anything to add one way or the other to the discussion
but I would like to point out that 40 people is not a statistically
significant sample size. I understand the OP was using the link to
connect back to a topic previously discussed. I think it is important
to remember that just because one has read it doesn't make it
"true".

I think it is great that a group cyclists of are discussing ways to
have a healthy life and questioning the idea that more always better.

JL

[dougP]

The group I ride with is mostly north of 60 in age. Oddly enough
(given the gray hair or lack of of hair) we get asked "So what are you
guys training for?". Our now-stock anwer is "Life". Works every
time, and has the added advantage of being true.

To properly frame that, imagine a half dozen geezers sitting around a
table having coffee, with a mixed bag of touring bikes (Atlantis, REI
Safari, etc., plus one custom Lighthouse & an ancient MTB) in the
background. No CF; some lycra, some cargo shorts, some sandals.

As one of (the late) Richard Pryor's characters said, "You don't get
old by being dumb."

dougP

On Jan 26, 10:54 am, Anne Paulson <anne.paul...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I agree. I love to ride my bike, and I like long rides. When I'm out
> riding, sometimes someone asks whether I'm training for something.
> "Training for something?" I say. "No. This is the thing, riding my
> bike."
>

[Mike]

On Jan 25, 6:24 pm, Chris Lampe <clampe1...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I recently got interested in Randonneuring as a very long-term riding
> goal and during my research I found a story a guy wrote about an event
> that included himself, Jan Heine and another guy.  Jan ended the trip
> fine, the other guy had to be carried home and the author of the story
> ended up in the hospital.  I hope that situation is an anomaly in the
> sport but it certainly made me lose interest.

The event those three were riding was a unique event--a Cyclos
Montagnards Challenge (http://cyclosmontagnards.org/WhatAreCM.html).
It's not even something recognized by RUSA. Regular brevets,
populaires, and permanents all over generous finish times so that
someone moving along at a steady and constant pace can finish. With
the club I ride with, OR Randonneurs, there are riders from across the
spectrum. This will be my fifth year of randonneuring and I've never
trained in the sense of doing preplanned workouts, intervals or even
charting my build-up to events, I just ride my bike. I do usually
taper off and don't ride so much in the late fall early winter but
then just pick up the mileage riding longer and longer.

It's been weird, after not really riding for 2 months I started 2012
with a 200k permanent on 01/02. That was great fun and I was surprised
I finished it feeling so well. It got me all fired up about riding
this year and since that ride I've done 2 other 100+ mile rides, the
second one yesterday. I don't think I ever really pushed my heart
rate, I just kept pedaling. At one point it started raining and I took
shelter and ate a sandwich I brought with me. My main reason for doing
the ride was to go check out some new roads and just spend time on my
bike, something I love.

If I were to limit myself to short rides I wouldn't see anything. I'd
be stuck noodling around Multnomah County and wouldn't ever get to
ride the road less travelled or see the things like the herd of elk
that I saw yesterday. I don't drive so driving out to start rides
further (farther?) outside the city limits isn't an option.

I absolutely love randonneuring and what's it done for how I see
cycling and the distances I can manage. To tell you the truth, a 100
mile ride really isn't that big a deal any more. Because of my work
schedule I'm often off on weekdays while my wife is at work it's not
difficult for me to find the time for a 6 to 10hr ride. I love the
solitude and I love the way I feel on the bike, it's just not
something that's replicated on shorter rides. I realize this type of
riding isn't for everyone or that people simply don't have the time. I
doubt I'll always have the time for it so I'm doing it now while I
can.

For anyone considering radonneuring don't be deterred by the comment
that it's nothing more than racing. That's simply not true. While
there are fast riders who blast off at the start, there are plenty of
folks who just roll down the road chatting and enjoying each others
company and the scenery. As people have said in the past,
randonneuring is a big tent, there's room for everyone. That's not to
say that it's without stress. My first 300k I overpacked and
perseverated on the distance in the days building up to it but was
pleasantly surprised how smoothly it went with good company, some
breaks, and an easy pace.

--mike

[robert zeidler]

It has a clock.....

[Mike]

Even charity rides and organized centuries have a clock.

On Jan 27, 7:01 am, robert zeidler <zeidler.rob...@gmail.com> wrote:
> It has a clock.....
>

[robert zeidler]

OK

On Friday, January 27, 2012, Mike <mjaw...@gmail.com> wrote:

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 26, 11:22 pm, charlie <cl_v...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The genetically superior folks just go faster but I think we can do the
> same damage exercising at our 85% zone too.

There's an important distinction here - most folks can't or simply
don't want to exercise at 85% of the max heart rate for very long, if
at all. 85% is used as a general reference point for reaching one's
anaerobic threshold (AT) - it can be lower or higher depending on
fitness. Average fit athletes usually have an AT between 75-85%, well-
trained athletes can be between 85-95%. Moreover, AT is pretty fluid
- with training, it can be increased. When we sit around, it's
lower. Even average athletes will notice the physiological changes as
they become more fit - for instance, those hills early in the year
that used to really take the breath away are somehow not as bad later
in the year; that 30 min 3 mi run turns into 27mins; activity that
used to be moderate/hard seems easier? The body adapts to exercise
intensity and duration, and adapts in different ways given different
intensities and duration. Getting fast is really just a matter of
raising your AT so that you can work harder for longer - no superior
genetics needed! Exercise physiology is science, but it's not rocket
science. Improving fitness is pretty straightforward and results
come pretty quick with structured training.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Tommy Godwin is still alive (born 1920), fit and alert, and yet he did this:

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest/531582/tommy-godwin-75-065-miles-in-a-year.html

That's over 200 miles per day each day for a year!!!

And on a lugged steel bike, which must have doubled his work!!!

See him today: http://www.guardian.co.uk/travel/audioslideshow/2012/jan/02/1948-london-olympics-cycling-audio-slideshow?fb=native

Exception that proves the rule? Or the disproves it?

[PATRICK MOORE]

Whoops: they seem to be 2 different TGs ...? Doppelganger?

--

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-01-27 at 10:01 -0500, robert zeidler wrote:
> It has a clock.....

Having a time limit does not turn a brevet into a race. You have to
finish within a given time (13.5 hours for a 200km brevet) and must
maintain a certain average speed (around 9.3 mph, if I recall correctly)
across the entire distance. You get no extra points for exceeding that,
and if you go fast enough will run afoul of the opening times for
controls, and will be forced to wait for them.

So: you get punished for being really fast, get no special points for
being fast, get no distinction for being first, and find that everyone
who completes the event within the time limits wins equally. You will
even find the Big Boys and Girls stopping for an hour or more at a
restaurant for lunch.

Sound much like a race to you?

[robert zeidler]

And if you finish beyond the time limit?

[robert zeidler]

And if you finish beyond the time limit?

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 27, 4:23 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:

> Sound much like a race to you?

I've done brevets that seemed more like a race than a lot of amateur
category races. It also seems to me that the majority of people who
participate in "races" are just out to have fun too. It's all about
attitude. At the end of the day, it's just something to do and people
will take a different approach to how they do it.

[robert zeidler]

Thank You Patrick!
I'm not against racing, nor against tome clocks.
I like brevets and enjoy the people. I, too, have enjoyed a long lunch.
It's not racing in the very strictest sense, I am fully aware. But why not just climb on the bike and knock out the mileage?
I'm always interested in the extent to which some folks will go to defend their sport, mot unlike when you read the letters in a car magazine after a test in which the letter writers car didn't fare too well
I 'm a RUSA  member, and personally love the leverage of the clock. It's interesting and fun.
But in it's own way it 's a race.

[Steve Palincsar]

Maybe it depends on where you are. At the back of the pack, it doesn't
feel anything like a race, in my experience. Can't say what things are
like up front.

On the other hand, I've seen "people out for fun" -- self described as
"shaved leg roadies" by one I chatted with on the New Years Day ride --
riding around Hains Point in a peloton wearing their team kit looking a
lot like what you see on TV in the Tour de France (and according to the
guy I chatted with, replaying TdF videos in their mind when they're
doing it).

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-01-27 at 16:31 -0500, robert zeidler wrote:
> And if you finish beyond the time limit?

Disqualified.

[Peter Pesce]

I think both you and Patrick would run afoul of "tome" limits with some of your posts! :)

Pete in CT
(I can be a twit in 140 characters)

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 27, 5:10 pm, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
>
> Maybe it depends on where you are.

i think it's the same everywhere. There's always "that guy/girl" who
takes things a little too seriously. turns people off. People are
people, and again - everybody has a different approach, motivation,
reason for doing something. That said, I do notice different vibes
for sure - mountain biking has its own thing. so does road,
cyclocross and rando ... it's pretty interesting moving in and out of
the different disciplines and i definitely feel more comfortable in
certain circles than others. by and large though, i see people having
a lot of fun. it really does come down to attitude.

>At the back of the pack, it doesn't feel anything like a race, in my experience.

mindset and expectations - the majority people who enter a race don't
have any expectations of winning. just another way to have fun. like
rando, simply finishing is an accomplishment and rewarding enough to
want to keep doing it.

the best example i can think of is the Portland Cross Crusade
cyclocross race series. Huge numbers of people - all shapes, sizes,
ages - turn out for these "races." maybe race just has a bad
connotation. i don't consider the running "races" i do races, but i
guess they are. for me, it's just something else to do to have some
fun.

[charlie]

Some of the ways our bodies adapt is that they get damaged...... by
too much 85% or more heart rate for sustained time periods. I guess
that is the point I read the article was making.....doing damage
rather than promoting health. Being adapted to ever increasing efforts
does make you more fit which doesn't apparently translate to increased
health....in fact, it has killed some and caused many others who do
that regularly to have heart problems.

[Tim McNamara]

On Jan 27, 2012, at 7:44 PM, charlie wrote:

> Being adapted to ever increasing efforts does make you more fit which doesn't apparently translate to increased health....in fact, it has killed some and caused many others who do that regularly to have heart problems.

I think you're right, that athletic fitness and health are not the same thing.

To me, health not not merely the absence of disease but is the ability to self-repair and be resistant to disease. Health = resilience oversimplifies it but I think is a big part of it. People can be healthy and not be athletically fit or even exercise much. I know people who lived to 100 in good health without deliberately exercising beyond just living their daily lives.

On the other hand, even people who aren't particularly healthy can be fit and athletic- and yet die from a heart attack, or get cancer, or have a stroke...

Moderate exercise appears to have some protective effect on health compared to laying on the couch all the time, perhaps walking only from the couch to the car to the cubicle and back. Extreme exercise seems to have at least some risk of causing harm- the life expectancy of professional athletes tends to be lower than that of normal healthy people.

[Patrick in VT]

On Jan 27, 8:44 pm, charlie <cl_v...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I guess that is the point I read the article was making.....doing damage
> rather than promoting health.

no doubt. common sense tells me that working any muscle, including
the heart, as much as the athletes in the study do could potentially
lead to some damage.

my point is that the level of intensity being discussed in the study
is not remotely relevant to most people. keep in mind that the
article (and other studies) recommend interval and high intensity
workouts - this is because one can get a lot fitness benefit in a
shorter amount of time (although there's a lot more to it that). but
there's a huge difference between 20min sub-threshold workout for joe
average cyclist and a sub-threshold marathon effort from jill elite
runner.

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

I remember Grant writing about some kind of full body jumping jacks.
Tried them for a while and wouldn't mind trying again.
Anyone remember the name or link?

Jay

[PATRICK MOORE]

I've used: http://www.shovelglove.com/ -- must take it up again, tho'
I stuck with it longer than with anything else except pushups.

> --
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[Rambouilleting Utahn]

He was probably talking about Burpees.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c_Dq_NCzj8M

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

That's the one. Thanks.