Rearranging 8/9 Speed Cassette Cogs

[Garth]

   I'm venturing into cassettes and wondered if there were any complications in rearranging a 9-speed Shimano 12-36t cassette by placing the 12t cog in the innermost position and then only using the 14-36t cogs for riding. Essential it's using the 12t cog (I'm assuming it has a built-in spacer) as a spacer. Or for 8 speed spacing do the same with a Sunrace 12-34 and make it a 14-34 with 7 usable cogs, placing the 12t w/spacer at the inner position. I simply have no use for 11 or 12t cogs and would rather use that space for cogs that I *do* ride. My rings are 24/36/46 and I really do prefer riding in the largest ring most of all. 

[Steve Palincsar]

Or, you could replace the 1st position 12 with a 1st position 13 -- the work of a second -- and you'd have a lower, more usable top gear.  You could also choose to ignore the top gear entirely, using only the larger 8 of 9, in which case nothing need be done with the 1st position 12.  If you're proposing moving the 1st position sprocket from the outside of the cassette to the far inside of the cassette, I don't see that as being practical, necessary or desirable.

On 8/8/19 5:28 AM, Garth wrote:

   I'm venturing into cassettes and wondered if there were any complications in rearranging a 9-speed Shimano 12-36t cassette by placing the 12t cog in the innermost position and then only using the 14-36t cogs for riding. Essential it's using the 12t cog (I'm assuming it has a built-in spacer) as a spacer. Or for 8 speed spacing do the same with a Sunrace 12-34 and make it a 14-34 with 7 usable cogs, placing the 12t w/spacer at the inner position. I simply have no use for 11 or 12t cogs and would rather use that space for cogs that I *do* ride. My rings are 24/36/46 and I really do prefer riding in the largest ring most of all. 

-- 
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia 
USA

[Garth]

   

I've already considered all the "ors, ifs and buts" Steve, hence my specific question about using the 12t cog on the other end of the cassette as a spacer(instead of trying to fill the gap with various spacers) and placing the 14t in first position. No additional purchases. A 14-34/36 7 or 8 speed cassette. I know my rings, my riding style, what kind of gears I ride and want to ride.

Practical or desirable for anyone else is not in question. To tell someone they "should" like or want something , is like telling someone who's eating vanilla ice cream and likes it they ought to be eating chocolate, and then going on and on about all the "reasons" why. The vanilla and enjoyment of it was never in question, the idea of "should be eating chocolate" , that's what's questionable !

[Steve Palincsar]

On 8/8/19 1:20 PM, Garth wrote:

   

I've already considered all the "ors, ifs and buts" Steve, hence my specific question about using the 12t cog on the other end of the cassette as a spacer(instead of trying to fill the gap with various spacers) and placing the 14t in first position. No additional purchases.

Shimano 1st position sprocket                                                             Regular sprockets other than 1st position

First (Top) Position sprockets for Shimano cassettes have a built-in spacer.   The others don't.

                                               

A 14-34/36 7 or 8 speed cassette. I know my rings, my riding style, what kind of gears I ride and want to ride.

Practical or desirable for anyone else is not in question. To tell someone they "should" like or want something , is like telling someone who's eating vanilla ice cream and likes it they ought to be eating chocolate, and then going on and on about all the "reasons" why. The vanilla and enjoyment of it was never in question, the idea of "should be eating chocolate" , that's what's questionable !

No, it's more like telling you that it'll work better (i.e., "more practical") if you eat that ice cream with the spoon that came packaged in the cup (under the lid) rather than trying to bite it directly.

If you want to use the bottom 8 sprockets of a 9 speed cassette, you don't need to do anything mechanical to accomplish that: just don't shift into the smallest sprocket.  If you want to prevent yourself from doing so by accident, I think you can use the high gear adjustment screw to do that (I'm pretty sure it'll reach that far).

[Garth]

  You disqualify yourself from further contribution by virtue of the fact you have ears but cannot hear.

[dougP]

Garth:

If that's what you want to do, just give it a try.  I don't know of any reason it wouldn't work, and it's certainly a low cost / low risk experiment.  I've played "fun with cogs" for years & it's interesting what can be done. 

dougP

[Jeremy Till]

Well, there's one issue, which is apparent looking at the picture Steve posted. Most (all?) last position cogs don't have splines that go all the way through the cog, they're meant to cap the ends of the splines on the freehub body. You wouldn't be able to slide them farther onto the freehub body.

-Jeremy Till
Sacramento, CA

[Matt C.]

Garth,

It appears that you have eyes and yet cannot see the most practical solution Steve is offering.

With a skilled hand and a dremel, you cannot use the smallest cog of a cassette as a spacer.

Matt Cook in CT

[Matt C.]

*without

[lconley]

Seems like a massive effort to save six bucks for a new spacer (files work too, just slower). Bet you could get a spacer for little or nothing from a worn out cassette from a bike shop or friend.

You also lose the lock ring action of the serrations on the outer face of the outer cog.

Laing

Cocoa, FL

[Garth]

Matt, As I said, I was already aware of the other options Steve listed. This idea of simply rearranging the existing cog and using the existing parts of the cassette, I was curious about and that was all I was inquiring about.

Rearranging the cassette as I asked about would allow for one more usable cog in the large ring of a triple crank. That is what wasn't "heard", that's all, that's what my comment was about.

Creativity is Life Itself, following is not.

On Friday, August 9, 2019 at 11:12:49 AM UTC-4, Matt C. wrote:

[Garth]

Thanks for the Jeremy.  From what I've since read the first 2 cogs supposedly lock together into thecassette body with the lockring. Whether or not this is a necessity I'm not so sure of, as I suspect it may have more to do with shifting with indexed shifters and keeping things in a certain order. For friction shifting of course this doesn't apply.

I've since discovered Shimano and Miche make first position cogs up to 16 teeth for what's called junior/youth cassettes. They aren't sold separately though, but you can mix and match cassettes of course.

I found that out while I ran across 6-speed single speed/trials 135mm QR cassette hubs from Hope and Hadley. While seeing pics of peoples custom 6sp. cassettes with 15-17t low cogs sparked my curiosity and hence my question. Undoubtedly not everyone is using "official" first and second cogs !  There's "by the book" and then there's reality as which books don't apply !

[Patrick Moore]

Perhaps I miss something, but why not just adjust the outer derailleur throw screw to lock out the 12 t cog?

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[Patrick Moore]

I did miss something, to wit using more of the large cogs with the large ring. 

[Patrick Moore]

Quality or whomever I ordered my Miche 15 and 16 outers from forgot about that rule when they sold mine to me; bought them separately, along with collection of appropriate (9 sp and then 10 sp) spacers, all sold separately.

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 10:51 AM Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

...

[Ash]

Garth, I have wondered about this as well.  I never use two outer cogs. With the chainring combo I have, my chain line is always off.   When I'm using the large chainring, the chain is toward the left of the center and vice versa.  I can't go any smaller on the large chainring.  (Campy - 46t is smallest I could find).  If I could have 14t as my smallest cog, my chain line would be almost straight when I'm using either chainring.  

One day I did try what you are contemplating.  I put two smallest cogs all the way inside as spacers. Did couple of rides.  Then decided to revert it back pending more research about any potential safety issues.  

There's a very valid use case here!

[Steve Palincsar]

The specific cassette in question, the 9 speed 12-36, consists of 8 riveted-together sprockets 14 thru 36 and one loose 1st position sprocket.   Can you do without a 1st position sprocket?  Because that's what is being proposed here.  It may be simplistic to think this way, but if you didn't need a special 1st position sprocket why would they bother making special 1st position sprockets? 

It may be possible to drill out the rivets and take that cassette apart.  I didn't look at them closely when I put two of them into service earlier this year or late last year.  But for sure, it would be a lot of work.

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[Garth]

That's very cool Ash. As long as the lockring is tight and pressure applied to squeeze it all together , there's not anymore to it. I found this @bikeforums : https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/1105172-first-position-cassette-cog-question.html

Replies #6 and #7. This one from Crankypants :  " I know a 12t lockring will work on a non-serrated 2nd position cog as I've been using just that on a bike for over 12k miles with a 13t cog. I would think the 11t lockring would also work but possibly the smaller diameter may be an issue but I doubt it. Just make sure you tighten the lockring properly and then check it after the first couple of rides to make sure it stays tight and if no problems you should be good to go."

I too like riding in larger chainrings. say 44t  and above. There is a definite unique feel to big rings and large-r cogs compared to the same gear-inch with a small ring and small-er cogs. My thinking about gearing with the advent of up to 50t cassette cogs has sorta been turned upside down. I could see riding just a say 34/46 double with a wide range cassette, a 40, 42, 46 or even 50 cog.  You can get very low gear without a 24/26t granny ring, which frankly I've never liked riding in, it's always felt odd. Riding up steep hills in say a 36t ring/32t cog gear always feels better than the equivalent granny gear.  

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Saturday, August 10, 2019 at 4:56:35 AM UTC-7, Garth wrote:

Replies #6 and #7. This one from Crankypants :  " I know a 12t lockring will work on a non-serrated 2nd position cog as I've been using just that on a bike for over 12k miles with a 13t cog. I would think the 11t lockring would also work but possibly the smaller diameter may be an issue but I doubt it. Just make sure you tighten the lockring properly and then check it after the first couple of rides to make sure it stays tight and if no problems you should be good to go."

This may or may not be true. Many freehub bodies have splines that don't go all the way to the outer end. Thus, fixation of the last "end cog" is entirely dependent on the end cog having an integrated "spacer" with the female splines. If one substitutes an integrated end cog with a separate cog-and-spacer pair, the splines will not catch and you'll have a freewheeling lowest gear. None of this applies if the 14-36 cogs are riveted together as a unit, of course.