Converting 650b Hilsen to Rene Herse 42/26 cranks

[Doug Williams]

I have a 58cm 650b A. Homer Hilsen that I purchased from Riv in 2014. I have been loving it ever since! It has the Sugino Triple Crank 46-36-24 and I run it all friction shifting with bar end silvers, 8 speed with a 11-32 cassette. The front derailer is Shimano Claris Triple. The bottom bracket is  bbc110.

So...I'm getting older and I notice I don't use the 46 ring much, at least not with the higher gears in the back. I am definitely an "UnRacer" anyway. I am thinking of getting the Rene Herse double cranks with 42-26 rings. If I go with the 8 speed megarange 11-34 cassette in the back, I would give up almost nothing in the lower gears and lose just some high gears that I rarely use anyway. So two questions:

1. Is my bottom bracket compatible with the Rene Herse cranks? I think so, but I'm not sure. Would now be a good time to replace it anyway?

2. Should I just keep my Claris triple FD and crank in the limit screw or go with something like the Shimano CX70 or some other double FD that works well with compact 42-26 rings?

Any other comments or suggestions would be welcome.

Doug

[Patrick Moore]

Doug: There are all sorts of reasons to buy the RH crank, foremost among which is its beauty. But if you want a cheaper, more utilitarian way to get the same result, consider converting the homely Sugino by removing the 46 and replacing it with a guard (https://bbgbashguard.com), swapping the 36 for a 42, and considering whether you need to swap the 24 for a 26; but if you decide that you do, this is easy. 

Then you can hold an interior debate about the cogs you need to change in the rear.

The upshot is that you can leave the bb spindle and even the front derailleur strictly alone. 

Some years ago I changed the 46-36-24 on my Fargo, long since sold, to a BBBashGuard/38/24 on the same Sugino XD2. I swapped the 7 cogs on the Shimano LX freehub for 9 different ones; IIRC, I simply bought 9-sp spacers and built a cassette from the cogs in my Big Box.

Note this carefully: I did not change the bb assembly, I kept the same LX triple front derailleur, and I didn't even lower the front derailleur. I simply adjusted the fd outer throw adjustment screw. 

It all worked fine. Again, I did not lower the fd; just left it hanging with a huge gap over the outer, formerly middle, ring.

But once again, the RH crank is indeed very pretty, and I am tempted to buy one myself simply for prettiness.

Oh,

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Doug Williams]

Thanks very much, Patrick! As usual, very helpful.

Doug

[Mark Allen]

I made a very similar switch from a 46-36-26 Sugino to a 42-26 White Industries VBC, both with an 11-34 9 speed cassette. It's been a great move – I don't miss the few high gears I lost, I still have plenty of really low gears for loaded climbing, and shifting is a bit simpler. The bottom bracket spindle length with the Sugino triple was 118mm long, and the White Industries support docs suggested a 113mm length was ideal for that crankset so I swapped those out, although the dark art of chainlines is a bit of a mystery to me so I don't know if keeping the 118mm would have had any adverse effects. I kept the front triple derailleur which worked fine with friction shifting after adjusting the limit screws. I've since moved to a 10 speed 11-34 cassette just because it was what I could find when I needed to replace it late last year, but everything still works flawlessly.

Mark

[KenP]

Hi Doug,

    My Appaloosa needed a much longer bottom bracket.

    RH shipped me a 121 & LBS had me return the BB because it needed to be even longer.  The RH crank has a different feel because of the Q factor.  It puts the legs closer together.  It weighs about the same.  Advantages that you customize it with the rings you want, a longer/shorter crank arm, finish color, etc.  The rings have a different bolt pattern than the XD2. I switched front derailleur  and  I switched to a RH crank from XD2 and am satisfied.  I had been having trouble with the XD2 having the chain drop between the rings.  Riv's own new crank might be nice as well if they have them available.

Ken

[jack loudon]

Regarding Rene Herse bb spindle length, on mine a 111mm bb spindle length results in a 119mm clear space between the arms, though this could vary a bit on different bb's and RH cranks due to machining tolerances.  To determine at a bb spindle length for an RH crank you could subtract 8mm from your chainstay spread (at crankarm distance) and then add back a healthy margin for square taper interface differences, crankarm clearance, and chainline adjustment.  On my bike (not a Hilsen), the chainrings aren't a problem, as the crankarms would contact the chainstay well before the 42-24 rings.

One problem I did have when going to a short spindle is learning that some front derailleurs won't swing far enough inward to drop the chain onto the inner ring.  A later-model Shimano 105 wouldn't work until I filed off the inner adjustment limit stop.  An older Campy Chorus works fine unmodified.

Jack - Seattle

[Jason Fuller]

Patrick is entirely right about the fact that you can re-jig the existing triple crankset into a double with a pant guard for much cheaper, but I am also completely enamoured with my Rene Herse crankset after a couple of years (42-26 as well), and when you consider that it basically a lifetime purchase (other than new rings every now and again), the price is not so bad. 

I run a road FD but I expect a MTB version would actually be more appropriate.  Works fine though, throws the chain over the top maybe once every 10 rides but that's likely just imperfect adjustment 

[johnboy]

Doug, I have an early Hilsen 59 cm 700c (2006?)I switched from the standard Riv Sugino triple to a RH 46/30 double. Phil Wood. BB 110 I think. Anyway, didn’t need to change anything except the front der. IRD alpine hit the chain stay and I went with a suntour lite double der ( vintage)good luck, John Walnut Creek

[johnboy]

I have an early A Homer (2006?)700 c 59 cm. I switched from a typical RBW Sugino triple to a RH 46/30 double. Did nothing to the bottom bracket-a 110mm Phil Wood. No issues. Changed to a vintage Suntour lite front derailler. John -Walnut Creek

[Gary Jacobson]

Can't praise the RH double in 42/26 enough. 

I have tried many FD's and like the IRD Sub C. with the 42 tooth large chainring doubles I've used.

The other crank I like due to it being a no compromise low Q crank is the 86bcd Sugino Apex. 

28 teeth is the smallest inner chainring for that spider when used as a double. I believe I posted about the ball and cup BB works for this set up on a 130 OLD frame.

I have used XCD cranks as a triple, but these days I'm riding doubles on all road bikes. 

Gary Jacobson

Rosendale, NY and

Roque Bliuffs, ME

[Gary Jacobson]

The HHH is 135 OLD. Does it make sense to use a low Q RH double with such a frame if one likes lower Q? Gotta think about that.

Recently I was thinking of trying a 86 BCD Apex on my Atlantis and nixed the idea. Maybe my thinking is faulty.

Gary Jacobson

Rosendale, NY and 

Roque Bluffs ME

On Wednesday, May 5, 2021 at 11:19:36 PM UTC-4 Jason Fuller wrote:

[ascpgh]

I built my Coast rando last year with a RH 46/30 crankset. I'm above you by four teeth on each but the diameter is close and the distance from the seat tube is too. 

I provided my mechanic some my FDs  to compare with their shop stock to find the one with best fit and function. The winner of all of these was my old SunTour Superbe Pro. Nice flat side plates, fairly short cage and its radius follows the big ring radius well enough. 

I have had nice results with SunTour MTB FDs on lots of my bikes with double triple and compact double cranks. A $5 favorite is the X-1. The one on my commuter for ten years of year round glop exposure.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

On Sunday, May 2, 2021 at 3:53:47 PM UTC-4 Doug Williams wrote: