Need Platypus tire advice

[JAS]

Oh joy!  My mermaid Platypus 55 cm frame is on the way!  There’s no ETA yet on Velocity Dyad wheels from Rich at RBW,  however I want to be ready and am seeking the wisdom of the group for recommendations on tires.  

Details: 

—Soma fenders, 52mm, that allow for tires up to 42mm

—Light build, mostly planning for road riding or Rails to Trails paths 

—Minimal loads for day rides

—I’ll be using tubes and don’t need “tubeless ready.”

—No super light casings because I want some flat protection

—I have a Clem for hauling and riding dirt trails using Schwalbe Big Bens, 27.5 x 2.0

Options contemplated:

—Panaracer Shikoro 38mm (can’t locate 42 in stock)

—Panaracer Gravel King (not sure which one)

Your thoughts and advice?  What would you recommend?  What else should I consider? 

—Joyce

[Kushan]

Based on 55 cm frame size, I am assuming you plan to run 700c tires (couldn't tell since you have 27.5 on your Clem). I have 700 x 38 mm Panaracer Gravel king on my Roadini and they have been really great. Despite the name, they are more of a road/slick tires with some light treading which gives good traction on dirt. I ride unloaded but I am heavy myself (200+ lbs) and find that they provide ample cushioning filled at 70ish PSI. I recently did a 70 mile day ride and they kept me comfortable all day. 

Never tired the Shikoro (btw they are made by Soma, not Panaracer) but heard that they are quite similar PR Gravelkings. 

[Philip Barrett]

I'm running the Rene Hearse Loups (650b) with tubes on my 50cm, now I understand what all the fuss is about. They're fantastic & I'm sure the rest of their range is of the same caliber.

PB

[Jon Dukeman]

I think my Little Big Ben's are around 38

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[Eric Marth]

Kushan -- I believe Joyce is correct here, the Shikoros are made by Panasonic in Japan with a Soma label :) 

[Eric Marth]

Joyce -- It appears that Soma has 42mm Shikoros in stock. Seems you couldn't go wrong given your description of planned use. 

https://www.somafabshop.com/shop/product/soma-tire-shikoro-700c-steel-bead-2596

[Joe Bernard]

Joyce,

If you're reasonably happy with the Big Bens on your Clem, you might consider not straying too far from that formula on the Platy. Riv has 700 x 38 Schwalbe Marathons in stock and you might find 42s out there somewhere, too. When I read "no light casing, some flat protection", that transposes in my mind that you're like me and reeeeally don't like stopping to fix a flat. I've ridden a bunch of Marathons and they aren't the lightest or the fastest, but they getcha home! 

Joe Bernard

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 11:36:09 AM UTC-7 JAS wrote:

[Peter Adler]

All the SOMA tires are made by Panaracer (the bike tire subsidiary of National Tire, which is the tiremaking subsidiary of Panasonic; they mostly do car/truck tires). All the Grand Bois tires are made by Panaracer. All the Rivendell tires are made by Panaracer. All the Compass/Rene Herse tires are made by Panaracer. All the Bruce Gordon tires are made by Panaracer. And back before Kirk Pacenti sold his tire designs to Panaracer outright, all the Pacenti tires were made by Panaracer.

Panaracer's a big company (by bike tire standards) with a lot of staff and equipment to amortize. They'll make tires and brand them for anybody who'll order their minimum and pay for it, pretty much. My assumption is that any time you see a boutique clincher bike tire, regardless of brand, Panaracer probably made it. I don't know for sure that Donnelly Tires (the successor to Clement) are made by Panaracer, but it would be a lot cheaper for the owners to subcontract it out to Panaracer than to operate their own factory.

Peter Adler

who owns and rides Panaracer tires with full satisfaction under five different brand names in

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Kushan]

That is great to know. I can now stop going OCD over tire quality comparisons :) 

[Peter Adler]

BTW, the Shikoros are not SOMA's lightweight slick tire. At 320g(28c), 350g(33c) 430g(38c) for the folding ones, they're more like replacements for their heavier Everwear tires. The wire rimmed ones are obviously heavier still. Another comparison would be to the Riv Ruffy Tuffy (700x28) or Jack Brown (700x33). SOMA's lightweight tires are the Supple Vitesse models, which are roughly in the same market as the Panaracer GravelKing slicks and the Rene Herse standard casing models:

SOMA Shikoro (folding):                 28c (320g), 33c (350g), 38c (430g)

SOMA Supple Vitesse SL (light):   28c (220g), 33c (250g), 38c (270g), 42c (340g)

SOMA Supple Vitesse EX (heavy): 28c (270g), 33c (290g), 38c (320g), 42c (380g)

Rivendell Ruffy Tuffy:                       28c (not currently listed on Riv or SOMA sites, so who knows?)

Rivendell Jack Brown:                                            33c (320g light, 400g heavy)               

Panaracer GravelKing slick:            28c (270g), 32c (290g), 35c (310g), 38c (330g)

Rene Herse (standard):                    28c (248g), 32c (291g), 35c (355g), 38c (385g), 44c (375g)

Rene Herse (extralight):                   28c (225g), 32c (254g), 35c (303g), 38c (350g), 44c (330g)

By tradition, we can assume that many of these weights are wishful thinking - maybe many of the measurements, too. Some of them are clearly wrong; how can the 700x44 Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass tires possibly weigh less than the 700x38 Barlow Pass ones, unless the casings on the 700x44s are sidewall-bursting thin? And weightwise, the SOMA Supple Vitesse SLs are just crazy light, if those numbers are real.

A nice-riding, fairly durable 700x30-something tire (if you can find them) is the SOMA New Express, which has the Panaracer Pasela tread with a more flexible casing. This was originally a 700c tire, which SOMA discontinued when they introduced the Supple Vitesse on the lighter end and the Shikoro on the heavier end. I rode a pair of folding New Expresses in 700x35 for a year or so on my around-town bike, and really liked them; I'd buy them again if they were still available.

Peter Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[Roberta]

Phil--Your Platy is a 50cm?

Joyce, I'm so happy for you. 

These are the ones I think (I could check later) Analog speced for my Platy--with the same riding info--mostly road, pea gravel, perhaps a touch off pavement in case I need to be):  https://analogcycles.com/product/panaracer-gravelking-semi-knobby-tires/  Officially, they are 43cm.

I just got a pair from a fellow member in 38's that I put on my she devil.  I might have only ridden 10 miles but they are better than the Marathon supreme that were on there (and I didn't mind the supremes). 

Roberta

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 2:36:09 PM UTC-4 JAS wrote:

[Philip Barrett]

Yes, mine is the 50cm, good choice for my 81 PBH I think?

On a 650b I've most recently ridden the Kendas (like wood but not as pliant) & the Soma/Panaracer Co de Vie (not bad), on a 700c the Panaracer Gravel King (again, not bad). Now I promise to shut up after this, but after the RH I'm never going back to another brand, they're that much better. The 1st ride was all it took.

The People rest, your Honor.

[Roberta]

50 is a good call, I think so.  I'm an 83 pbh and got a 55.  I've been looking at your bike and thinking "that's about right."  I'll have to reset my visual expectation for mine.

Better tires are amazing--absolutely worth the money for me for increasing the joy of riding, although I'd give up some supple for additional flat protection.  There is another RivSister here, Kate,  who has some a RH model tire on her Coda and loves it.  Perhaps she'll put the same brand on her Platy.

[Will Horton]

We went with the Soma Supple Vitesse SL 48's on Maia's Platypus. They are absolutely fantastic tires, truly. I would not hesitate to recommend the Shikoro's based on what I know, since they are in essence very similar tires, just with added flat protection.

Depending on the width of your rims, you might be able to fit a larger tire than what you think.

[upyou...@yahoo.com]

Anyone running the Rene Herse  650B x 42 Babyshoe Pass?   Phil, I was considering the Loups 38 as well.  I am enjoying the Rene Herse Barlow Pass 38 on my hybrid bike.  I also can see what all the fuss is about.  Like riding on clouds.  

Kate-Trenton, NJ

Mermaid 50 Platy....still at Riv HQ

[Jason Fuller]

I run the Babyshoes on my Hillborne, and before that on my Soma Grand Rando - combined, about 7000 km on them and they are the best Rene Herse tire I've ridden, and also the best slick I've ridden.  The volume feels like the 'Goldilocks' balance in volume; bigger Rene Herse / Compass tires feel a bit unsupported to me, but narrower ones lose some of the comfort.  Cannot recommend Babyshoe's enough.  I have had a total of 3 flats on them in that 7000 km too, running tubed. 

That said - they'll be snug under 52mm fenders, and I'd be tempted to stick to 38mm for that reason.  I can't imagine the Gravel Kings are much different than the Rene Herse, but I'd still go Rene Herse for my money.  I run those Babyshoes under 58mm fenders 

[Peter Adler]

At every given shared size, GravelKing Slicks split the weight difference between analogous Rene Herse extralight and standard casing models. To my eyes, the tread on the GKs is indistinguishable from the RH slick tread (as with the Pacenti Pari-Motos which were the progenitors of both lines, and the supple fat road tire niche as a whole). The key differences between the GKs and the RHs are: The GKs have clearly brown sidewalls, rather than tan/gum, and the GKs cost $10-40 less apiece. My hunch is that Panaracer saw that RH and Grand Bois were selling tires at $80, and figured they could make something comparable under their own label at $50 MSRP.

I've currently got four sets of Compass/RH tires (Chinook Pass, Stampede Pass light+standard, Bon Jon Pass standard), and they're all swell - the 700x28 CPs were revalatory, and I've avoided buying heavy tires since. I bought the 700x35 GK slicks to compare with the BJPs; I've been riding the GKs around on my pack mule for the last few months, and they're great once you get the pressure down to the right point. I'll soon swap the BJPs onto my go-fast wheelset in place of the SP standards. The 700x35s won't fit on all the frames between which I rotate that wheelset...

Peter "need to stay wide enough to keep from falling in sewer grates at the corners" Adler

Berkeley, CA/USA

[JAS]

Thank you all for your thoughts on tires!  I've learned a lot by reading these responses and have enjoyed the different view points.  Thanks for taking the time to respond with your experience and advice.  It sounds like there are lots of options that would enhance the Platy's ride.

BTW, my Platy frame arrived today via the big brown truck. Alas, still awaiting the wheels.  

--Joyce

[Pancake]

"Some of them are clearly wrong; how can the 700x44 Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass tires possibly weigh less than the 700x38 Barlow Pass" ... apparently Jan answered this in the comments to a blog post at Rene Herse: 

"Compass tires are largely made by hand. The rubber coating of the casing, but also the tread thickness, vary a bit from one production run to the next. The last batch of Barlow Pass tires turned out a tad heavy (which means they set up very easily tubeless), while recent Snoqualmies have been at the light end of the spectrum. They all ride great, and you’ll be hard-pressed to notice the difference on the road." 

I have Continental Speed Contact (or as riv called them, Basketball tires) in 700x42mm and they're excellent for the anticipated riding, but slightly heavy (also excellent flat protection in my experience, though with tubeless sealant added to the tubes which helps quite a bit). Also strongly recommend the Schwalbe G-One Allround in 45mm (they don't yet offer the Speed version, with tiny treads vs. the Allround's knobbies, of the G-one wider than 38mm, but that's also excellent). 

I'd bet the 44mm Snoqualmie pass tires are a great fit for this riding and they'd still have excellent fender protection under the 52mm Soma fenders. 

[Joseph Willms]

For what it's worth, I have Snoqualmie Passes on my Hillborne with the Simworks 58 Hammered fenders and they work great.  I just got a Platypus for my wife and she has Switchback Hills and our plan is to have our LBS install the Simworks 62 smooth fenders on her bike.  

[upyou...@yahoo.com]

After talking with Vince at RivBike.  I decided to go with the Switchback Hills 48 also.  No fenders.

That was the easy decision.  I just can't figure out what handlebars to go with!!!!!

Choco? Tosco? flat with sweep?  Lost in the internet for hours!!!

Kate-Trenton, NJ

[JAS]

Kate,

Good for you for getting a decision made on tires.  I loved your comment about getting lost in the internet...I, too, have been down the rabbit hole of the internet studying various components and accessories.  It's amazing how the time flies by and even with advice from the others on this forum, I still am trying to decide about tires.  It goes like this.....38 or 42?  Better flat protection or lighter tire?  What casing?  What brand?  What's available at this time of limited supply?  Can I get what I want or do I need to settle for something less?  Yikes.

For what its worth, I have Boscos on my Clem and love them so my Platypus will have Boscos also.  That was easy.   The tough decision is the length of the stem.

Good luck with your handlebar search.

RivSisters,

Joyce

[Pam Bikes]

I have the Schwalbe Marathon Supremes and love them.  I ride daily on them and get 12,000 miles without a flat.  I change them  before I have any problem.  I'm on my 4th set.  This is the only tire I've ridden so I don't know about the others but I loved the performance so far.

On Tuesday, May 11, 2021 at 2:36:09 PM UTC-4 JAS wrote:

[John Hawrylak]

Peter

You stated/asked:

"Some of them are clearly wrong; how can the 700x44 Rene Herse Snoqualmie Pass tires possibly weigh less than the 700x38 Barlow Pass ones, unless the casings on the 700x44s are sidewall-bursting thin? And weightwise, the SOMA Supple Vitesse SLs are just crazy light, if those numbers are real."

I asked this same question to Jan Heine about 2 years ago on his blog post.  He replied the 700x44 were designed slightly different to be lighter than the 38's.  Can't recall what the change was,  possibly thinner tread, but he claimed it did not affect wear.   So the weight difference is real.

John Hawrylak

Woodstown NJ

[Tom Wyland]

Should I feel bad about my 780g Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires?  Sure keeps the flats away when riding on the street.

[Joe Bernard]

I never feel bad about good tires that get me home. Stopping for a flat is a gigantic pain in the arse, now exacerbated in my case by arthritis that will hurt like hell for a week after I've muscled a tire lever around a rim. I'm #TeamNoFlats*

*Ok I feel bad about Kenda Kwicks. Those are awful. 

Joe Bernard

[Garth]

 You know, riding can at time be hard, like uphill and against the wind. I've ridden race bikes with tubulars and all that, but they don't make riding any easier. No matter what my speed is at the given time, I can't go any faster than I'm already going. There's no outrunning, improving the present. It cannot be done. Set out to try and "do it my way"....."the song of hell/futility" ....  hah hah .... and regardless of all the effort I'm right where I ever am, the present. There's no escape, nor is there anything to escape from. So what do I do ? I "give in" to what already is .... LIFE ..... and I enjoy the ride(NOW) to the fullest, there's nothing else like it and it's always unique. The bike is but a means to be outside rolling around. It's good to have a bike that fits well and like to ride, but there comes a point when the bike is forgotten and so is "me the bike rider"..... and in a sense  I  "Be the Ride Itself".  It's like that when really engaged in something,  all sense of the personal vanishes and BAM ! .... Life breaks out in wondrous orchestration of perfect movement and expression.

So tires ?  Hah !   It's never about the tires, or the bike, or the thing ..... it's about ... L I F E  !  That which is the Life of the tires, of the bike, of the Ride, and I that reads and the I that writes this.

(  ( (  S M I L E  ) )  )

[Patrick Moore]

Each to his or her own. It depends on what you prefer. Many ride stiff tires that don't flat; pre-sealant, I preferred -- no, really, really much preferred --  to fix over 150 flats per year (2 boxes of 100 Remas per year, more or less) instead of riding tires that felt slow. 

Fortunately, modern sealants even here in goatheadland allow one to ride the lighest, thinnest tires with hardly any flats and resulting pleasure: in tubes for higher pressures, tubeless for lower pressures.*

Of course, we get very little rain; and also, 2 spare tubes per bike usually let me get home before I had to break out the patch kit (also one for each bike); plus of course top quality pumps. Again, each to his own; this was my own.

* For me, an unscientific but still empirical division at about 45 or 50 psi.

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 2:51 PM Tom Wyland <tomw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Should I feel bad about my 780g Schwalbe Marathon Greenguard tires?  Sure keeps the flats away when riding on the street.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

I was riding 70 to 100 miles per week back then with 3 to 5 bikes, most on the commuter and allrounder, mostly on pavement but say 1/3 dirt.

Oh: One big exception to the "flatting fast tires": Big Apples. They rolled surprisingly well for their bulk, but got perhaps 1/3 of the flats per unit distance of the other tires; in order of flat-prone-ness, ie from more flats to less flats per unit: 26 X 1.25 Paselas, non-TG (and yet for a number of years these were my commuting tires and got the most miles); Conti GPs, Michelin Pro Races, Specialised Turbos (yep, fewer flats than the Paselas); 26 X 1.35 and 700C X 35 Kojaks; 26 and 29" 2.35" Big Apples).

[JAS]

Jason, what casing did you select for your RH tires?  Standard, extralight or endurance?  I'm impressed with your mileage to flat ratio.

Garth, you're right!  It's ultimately about life and enjoying the ride. I"ll bet you've read "Flow: The Psychology of Optimal Performance" by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.  If not, you might enjoy it.

Joe, I also found that the Kenda Kwik tires that came on my Clem rode like bricks, though I didn't know how bad they were until I switched to Big Bens.  I have Schwalbe Marathons on my Bike Friday for touring for the flat protection.  My hands aren't as strong as they used to be so it's often a struggle to get the tire back on the rim.

Thanks to all for continuing this conversation about tires.  I appreciate the opportunity to learn more about bikes via your experience.  As far as my tire decision goes,  I'm currently leaning toward the folding Shikoro 700 x 38 due to availability.  I don't know if the 42mm would be better, but can't find them in the folding (lighter) version.

--Joyce

[Jason Fuller]

Joyce - yeah, I think I've been lucky and am due for a streak of flats to be honest!  I have a mis-match of Standard and Extralight right now, but only about 1500 km has been with one Extralight - and 1 of the 3 flats was on it. Most of my riding has been on the standard casing, and I don't notice a big difference between it and EL - but I did notice a significant drop in ride comfort when I tried Endurance casing in a different model.  So I would definitely suggest standard casing from my experience.  

[Garth]

Joyce,  Enjoy the ride !!!  Shikoro 700x42 ......  https://takeahikeshop.com/products/soma-shikoro-700c-k-tire-black-brown?

[JAS]

Garth, you're a life-saver!  I got busy right away and ordered the tires.  Thanks so much for the link.

[Edwin W]

If you ever feel like you are getting too many flats on the rear (always the rear!), a much tougher, but still a bit supple tire is the Marathon Supreme. And it comes in 700x42.

https://www.schwalbetires.com/bike_tires/road_tires/marathon_supreme

There are many marathons... this one is the lightest and most supple, I think.

Good luck and report back.

Edwin

[Emily Guise]

Joyce, so glad you were able to get those Shikoros! I have them on my 60cm Platy and have been very pleasantly surprised by how nice they feel on the road; they seem to really smooth out the rough spots. So far I haven't had a flat in a month of ownership even though our streets are full of glass and potholes. Two thumbs up from me!

-Emily

[JAS]

Back to the drawing board on tires...I'm officially calling this "tire angst." The order for the 42 Shikoros went through, Pay Pal and all.  I was so happy!  Later, I received an apology from the merchant stating they were out of stock but hadn't updated their website.  No!  I called and spoke to James at Riv; he called their rep who has no idea when there will be more.  I'd already sent an email to Soma and their eventual reply was the same...resupply date is unknown.  Someone on Amazon has one 42mm Shikoro (or at least they did yesterday). 

So I suppose I'll have to settle for Shikoro 38mm or consider the Rene Herse options.  Does it make any sense to put a 42mm Shikoro on the rear and 38mm on the front?  Or vice versa?

Thanks for listening to my rant.

--Joyce 

[Jason Fuller]

Ah that sucks Joyce.  What about 38mm GravelKing SS?  I really like the tread on these - smooth center, but a little bit of texture on the sides to aid in sandy or wet conditions.  Universal has em in stock (but not the 43's), and they are fast and reliable to buy from. These seem like pretty ideal Riv-roadish type tires but I haven't tried them 

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=103087

[Garth]

No biggie Joyce .... there's always some tires somewhere ! 

https://www.modernbike.com/soma-shikoro-k-tire---700-x-42-black-brown

https://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=77871

Of course, when things like this happen I may be given to pause on the selection. If I was going to run tires that size again I used to ride Vittoria Hypers, which were wonderful to ride, but not long lasting at all. I never saw a tire wear out so fast. The Marathon Supreme was the other tire I had tossed around but by then I decided to try go with a bigger 2" Big Ben tire so that took care of that. So I'd certainly consider the Supreme 700x40 which should measure out to 40mm as the ETRTO number is 42-622. The Supreme will definitely last a long awhile like the Big Bens do. Frankly though, I'm not terribly impressed, or should I say de-pressed about the weight-number of a given tire when it comes to Schwalbe at least and their mid-to high end tires. The BB's weigh, with tubes about a pound more than the Vittoria did, yet they roll as easy and uphill I still ride the same gears. It's not "easy-er"!  Plus they are quite plush. Considering the "laws of physics" are theoretical ......like "pie in the sky... hee hee hee" ....well that's all I need to say about that.

[Joe Bernard]

There's no reason you can't mix tire sizes. Back in the day - before suspension forks - mountain bikers would add a bit of cush to the front by running a bigger tire than the rear. You could do this with the knowledge that your rear 38 will wear faster, then replace with a 42 you've found by then. This could work! 

[Doug Williams]

I am also a Babyshoe Pass fan. Been riding them on my Homer for years, both with tubes and tubeless. Very, very nice. The ride and handle beautifully and they are absolutely silent, which I enjoy (some people don't care about sound).

Doug