NMSW

[Josh C]

Looking for your take on non-machined side wall wheels with rim brakes. Poor stopping power? 

I don't have experience with NMSW and rim brakes but just reached out to a wheel builder about building a set of polished cliffhanger wheels and they cautioned me regarding the NMSW. Figured I'd see what experience you all have with 'em. 

Thanks 

[Patrick Moore]

That is very odd. Aren't machined brake tracks relative recent (I mean, starting from the 1990s, or perhaps 1980s? People managed to stop just fine before that. And I've been using a stash of Sun M14As and ME14As for almost 30 years and those don't have machined braking tracks; salmon pads stop just fine on my single pivot calipers.

All the old road bike rim classics: MA2s, Open Pros, etc,? Hell, even chromed steel rims work fine with cheap rubber brake pads in dry conditions.

I think he's trying to sell you a new pair of rims. 

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/701b2798-b758-4204-9b1e-3852e9024347n%40googlegroups.com.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Josh C]

Thanks!

He didn't exactly say not to go with the cliffhangers just said "hey those rims are NMSW, are you ok with that?" which gave me pause. So I thought about it and all of my rim brake wheels have had machined side walls. Maybe a BMX bike or two when I was young were NMSW but I can't remember. Figured I'd ask before ordering wheels and regretting it. 

[tellyoutoday]

I had this concern before getting some non-machined Atlases a few years back. Turned out to not matter at all for performance from my perspective, and once your pads pick up some dust/grit they will rough up the rim surface a bit anyway. 

[John Rinker]

Hey Josh,

I recently built up some Velocity Cliffhangers with nmsw. I also have a set that do have machined sidewalls. I've run them both- mostly in dry conditions, but some wet- and I can't really tell any difference in stopping time or power. I have a pair of Avid arch supremes doing the rim grabbing and they are amazing. So, maybe in comes down to the kind of brakes, but in my case no discernable difference.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, John

[Josh C]

@tell, John: thanks for the reply. I appreciate the insight; it helps. I think I'll stick with the NMSW Cliffhangers. 

[chintan jadwani]

Hi Josh

In the recent rivendell email, an appaloosa was linked which has the following on it's description page

"Another caveat: We always prefer non-machined sidewalls because they last longer, but when paired with salmon pads, they squeal until the rims are more broken in. We're including a set of non salmon pads with this bike, so you can swap them out if it's too noisy. A couple rides in the rain or lots of dusty rides should do the trick as well. See the pads in the pictures."

Chintan

[Josh C]

Thanks. I didn't think much of it until they asked me if I was ok with NMSW. Thanks again. 

[Bill Lindsay]

I concur that I had some black anodized non machined sidewall cliffhangers on a 650B Atlantis and koolstop salmons were horrible on those rims.  They howled like crazy and didn't stop well.  Regular black (original Tektro) pads worked fine.  

If there is a takehome message, I think it is this:  Machined sidewall rims are CONSISTENT.  They pretty much always work the same way.  Non Machined Sidewalls are LESS CONSISTENT.  You will hear anecdotes where some were fine, and others not so much.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Matti]

I saw this info about the topic on the Riv website page for a complete Appaloosa:

Another caveat: We always prefer non-machined sidewalls because they last longer, but when paired with salmon pads, they squeal until the rims are more broken in. We're including a set of non salmon pads with this bike, so you can swap them out if it's too noisy. A couple rides in the rain or lots of dusty rides should do the trick as well.  See the pads in the pictures.

[Will Boericke]

Just finished D2R2 160K with my A23 rims in NMSW.  No issues.  I will say the stopping was less than great until I wore through the layer of anodizing.  But that was maybe 30 miles (and before the 160k).  Kool Stop salmon FTW.

[Jim Whorton]

Here are mine after approximately 300 trips to the grocery store, 1200 miles total or so.  Non-machined black Cliffhangers, Kool Stop pads. They do squeal a bit when wet, but not terribly, and only when starting the ride.   The picture shows how the pads have taken some of the anodizing away.  They are not the grabbiest brakes I have but the bike does stop when I ask it to, even when loaded with groceries.  

Jim in Rochester, NY

[Josh C]

@ Matti, wobe, Jim: I really appreciate the input. I'm going to stick with the NMSW wheels. Thanks again!

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I too have NMSW--mine are A23 velocity rims.  The kool stop oranges squeal, and I have lightly sanded the brake pads when they got glassy and it stops squealing for a few hundred miles.  I'm gonna try some kool-stop black pads with them based upon the discussion and see if it gets rid of the squeals.  Apparently I have not worn down my rims enough yet...

Toshi

[Teague Scott]

Digging this thread up...

About to get into building some wheels for my new-to-me Susie. I'm getting some Cliffhangers, leaning towards NMSW, and am contemplating silver (ano?) vs. polished. I didn't see any mention of a difference between these two finish types in the thread so far. I guess polished is pretty much the anodized version w/ anodization removed along the brake track. But does the process of polishing create a brake track surface more impervious to roughage by wet n dusty conditions? If so, maybe it's only a temporary imperviousness.

Wondering whether anyone out there has experience with the NMSW polished version.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Scott,

I have experience with Non-machined side wall for both polish and non-polish (regular) Cliffhanger & Atlas rims from Velocity.
The polish version looks real nice at the start but once it starts to get used, the finish acquires some stains from various elements of the road.

Although, I have not tried to polish it with some kind of compound to restore its luster.

Since then, all my bto wheels from Rick were all non-polish (regular) version.

If there is an anodized version, I would personally go to that route.

Regards,

Edgar

[Josh C]

-Teague- I did end up going with the polished NMSW wheels. It just weirded me out that they asked in the first place. I probably wouldn't have even noticed had they not. They don't function any worse or better than any other wheels that I've had. I did experience squealing at first, but I angled the pads in quite a bit, 2x the width of a business card (or folded in half) and it resolved immediately. I've now ordered 3 sets of those wheels in total since starting this thread. I'm a big guy and want bomb-proof wheels with wide internal width for fatties. I couldn't be happier. I've been ordering mine from Peter White Cycles with Son Dynamo up front and White Ind out back. Love everything about them.    

[Teague Scott]

Thanks Ed, Josh

Good to hear about the polished NMSW working out for you. I'm planning on following suit.

Did some more googling. Velocity says:
"Polished - hand polished to a shiny finish, raw aluminum. Adds $50 to the price of a rim or wheel
*Note: Some polished rims may not require machining for rim brake compatibility. We machine our anodized rims to provide an aesthetically-pleasant product for our customers. Machining removes the outer-most layer of anodized material so that the brake pad does not wear away at the rim's surface. On our polished rims, the braking surface is adequate for a rim brake prior to being machined, and it is our preference to leave additional material on the rim to prolong the life of the wheels for our customers"

So, there you go. Sounds like Velocity gives a thumbs-up to rim-brakes and polished rims. Machining sidewalls on ano rims is done just to make 'em prettier.

If you trust robots, Google AI says:
"When comparing an anodized braking surface to a polished one, a polished surface generally offers better braking performance due to its smoother, more consistent friction surface, while anodizing primarily provides corrosion resistance and aesthetic benefits, but can slightly decrease braking efficiency by creating a slightly less grippy surface on the brake rim. 

• Drawbacks of anodized braking surfaces:
  • Reduced braking efficiency: The oxide layer created by anodizing can slightly reduce the friction between the brake pad and the rim, potentially impacting braking performance, especially in wet conditions. 
  • Wear rate: While the anodized layer can be durable, it may wear away faster than a polished surface under heavy braking.
• Drawbacks of polished braking surfaces: 
  • Lower corrosion resistance: Polished surfaces alone may not offer the same level of corrosion protection as an anodized finish."

Now to pick some hubs...

- Teague

[Josh C]

For the record...I don't trust what Google AI says...but go for it 

[Teague Scott]

Now don't get me wrong, I'm no big fan of robot truckers either. Google search (and big-tech, small-tech, etc.) is pushing the AI pretty hard – pops up every time I make a search and I can't find a way to shut it off. In this case, Jobst Brandt's name jumped out at me from the "references list." I went ahead and picked through the googlebot's sources and found some other trustworthy stuff in there.