Fancy Hub Conundrum: Chris King vs. White Industries vs. Hope

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

I'm considering a fancy new wheelset and am looking at hubs. All
three listed above have great reputations, and are well regarded.
From what I've read, Hopes are the loudest, followed by King and then
White. Does anyone have first hand knowledge with that? I'm leaning
toward White as they look the best to me and are made in CA which
would be a tie-breaker if necessary. Any thoughts on the noise or
anything else (seals, maintenance, resale)?

http://chrisking.com/hubs

http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html

http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG29

[Jim Mather]

I've had King and White. Both provide excellent performance and
durability. I've used them extensively for single speed mountain
biking and they have endured hard usage without trouble. The
ratcheting of the King freehub is very loud, and I could see it being
annoying for some. The White is noticeably quieter, more comparable to
a typical Shimano. I don't have experience with Hope but have heard
that they are louder than King.

jim m
wc ca

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[Steven Frederick]

I have a WI freehub on my 650b custom--it's fantastic. A very Campy
like buzz-not so loud as some I've heard but not as quiet as Shimano.
Recommended.

Haven't had it long enough to speak to reliability or service but they
are well reviewed and it seems to turn forever when you give it a
little spin.

Steve

[William]

The chris king hubs have their own ringtone.  You have to celebrate the noise

http://chrisking.com/ringtone

If the Hope is even louder, then like whoa.  

In my shopping for fancy rear hubs I had made my mind up on the White, especially for how nicely it complements a SON delux up front.  Instead I just bought another Deore XT for $10 on ebay.  Next time. 

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 3:10 PM, cyclot...@gmail.com
<cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a white industry rear hub on our tandem. It's been pretty much
perfect and it's not noisy at all.

I'm enamored of their mi5, too -which model were you thinking about?

-sv

[Minh]

I have a set of CKs from a few years ago and they are still really
loud, the sound is also high-pitched, so buzzing bees is a good
description.
I have a WI Dos FW on my quickbeam, also quite loud, but a different
tone, not sure if the WI hubs are the same or not, just another data-
point.

Either one you either get used to it or not, neither one has ever
bothered me, but i do notice when i get on the Hillborne (which has a
really quiet IRD FW), how much quieter it is. So try to keep this in
mind and if possible find someone so you can actually hear them
yourself.

The kings are not that serviceable you either need the fancy tool or
need to send them in but mine have not required anything other then a
few drops of oil periodically.

You're in the high end price wise, so with the law of diminishing
returns the resale value will not be that great on any of these, so i
wouldn't even consider that, it's gonna hurt if you have to resell.
The best option is to find a second-hand set so someone else can take
the hit on resale.

FYI, i believe chris king also are made in the usa. If i were to
decide today, i think i'd lean towards the WI too...

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

THANKS for all the replies, it sounds like everyone is pretty much on
the same page.

Shimano is still in the running, but I don't need to ask any advice on
them :-)

I have some Phil Wood cassette hubs, so don't mind a little ratchet,
but the Hopes seem really loud from what I've read. Friends have CKs
so I've heard those in person. Whites are an unknown, so glad to hear
the positive responses.

I want real good seals for off-road use, which wasn't mentioned yet.
Does White have multiple seals? Must say, Shimano has that aspect
down!

In case anyone is wondering, CKs are made in Portland OR, White in
Petaluma (Bay Area) CA and the Hopes in the UK.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Oh, and I'm looking at the cassette hub models specifically.

On Nov 3, 1:00 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[Allan in Portland]

FWIW, you couldn't give me a Chris King. The hubs are all over Portland. Too loud, too NASCAR. The WI, which came to me through purchase of a used bike, I find pleasant in both looks and sound. It is also incredibly smooth. It spins down a stop like no other wheel I've owned.

Regards,
-Allan

[stevep33]

Many thousands of trouble-free miles on White hubs (MI5, H2, H3, etc).  Not as quiet as a Shimano hub but still easy on the ears.

Hard to beat.

[Michael_S]

I had a set of Hope disc hubs... too noisy for me. Same with Kings.  The Whites are on my list for when I win the Lotto.

 

Are these for the Gunnar or the Riv?  There are other choices if you are getting Disc's ( can I say that word here?) 

 

I went with NOS older model XT's on my 29er ( the ones with steel axles) just cuz" I like my hubs quiet.  If this is non-disc want ...I have been using Miche Racing box's which are -amade in Italy. You have to order the Shimano/SRAM splined version from one of those UK mailorder sites.  and get other skewers as they come with some gawd-awful red ones.

 

-watchin' the fog roll in Carlsbad Ca

~mike

[S.Cutshall]

Agreed. Bought a King cassette hub for the Bleriot thinking I'd do my
part for the local economy/support the Home Team, etc... never again.
Love Chris' headsets, but The Angry Bee is not for me. Thousands of
miles on it, still louder than a Tea Party get-together at a Metallica
concert.

On an average night, my wife & daughter can hear me coming home from a
ride: 4 houses away, while they're inside.

No Ninja riding with a King rear hub.

I'm either going back to Phil or White after this hub dies--or I shoot
it.

-Scott

[Joe Bartoe]

The answer to the angry bee sound of a King hub is to keep pedaling. Coasting is for sissies!

Joe

Joe Bartoe
Synaptic Cycles Bicycle Rentals, Inc.
email: j...@synapticcycles.com
website: www.synapticcycles.com
Twitter: @synapticcycles
phone: 949-374-6079

> Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:05:42 -0700
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Fancy Hub Conundrum: Chris King vs. White Industries vs. Hope
> From: clot...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

As Allan implied, I thought the King Buzz was simply the background
noise of Portland!!! :-)

White hubs are definitely coming out on top in this scientific
sample. Too bad the used market is non-existent. I'm guessing they
have much low production numbers that any of the others. Anyone have
a line on a set of silver MI6 (yes, disc!) hubs?

[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

I have a Hope rear hub on one bike. Like others have said, it is loud. I like the sound though... it sounds mechanical and solid. The coasting buzz was just a bonus. My reasons reasons for buying it were more vain... 1) it came in anodized gold. and 2) The allen bolts (rather than QR) look really cool.  

 

[Steven Frederick]

Universal seems to have them...

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=30656&category=2600

and

http://www.universalcycles.com/shopping/product_details.php?id=30650&category=2600

[reynoldslugs]

Celebrate diversity, get one set of each. I have a couple of sets of
Whites and they are fantastic. When I feel like a buzz, I ride the
Kings, and I love them too.

The eternal debates - - White or King? Mary Anne or Ginger? Betty or
Veronica?

Either way you won't go wrong.

RL

[cyclotourist]

Well, I have some Phils, is that a good start?  :-0

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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:33 PM, cyclotourist <cyclot...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Well, I have some Phils, is that a good start?  :-0
>

What are you thinking about for rims?

I'm debating a set of wheels for a new-to-me AHH that just arrived:

white ind mi5-racers + synergy or dyads - any thought one way or the other?

I also have a lovely wheel made with the salsa delgado cross which I'm
quite happy with.

Any words against them?

-sv

[Mike]

I say go with Shimano XT hubs (135mm spacing on your frame, right?).
I've had absolutely no problems with the Shimano hubs I have them on
my Hilsen, LHT and CC and they're just great.

Dissentingly yours,
mike

[Philip Williamson]

I have a set of King-built Bontrager hubs from 1999. They came on the
Privateer, and they're one reason I got the startling orange and blue
model, and not the Rasta one.

The rear hub has been adjusted exactly once, and both hubs still turn
like new. They are strong, attractive (to me), with excellent
engagement (better then anything else I've ridden, which isn't that
much), but I've gotten used to the sound only in the last couple
years. I have come to really enjoy "ripping one" on the steep
downhills around here, but you see clearcuts and shotguns and
pitbulls, so there's already a punk-rock edge to the woodsy experience
in rural Oregon.

The King is not your hub for floating down singletrack into Muir Woods
on a Sunday afternoon to slip off the bike and walk it past the Ranger
station and tour buses out through the parking lot to the road... King
hubs are bad ass, but not ninja.

I'd choose a pair of White hubs, but mostly because I lived in
Petaluma for four years, not because I have any experience of them.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com


On Nov 3, 12:10 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[cyclotourist]

You and Johnny Otis!

On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 10:52 PM, Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'd choose a pair of White hubs, but mostly because I lived in
Petaluma for four years, not because I have any experience of them.

 Philip

 Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com


On Nov 3, 12:10 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> I'm considering a fancy new wheelset and am looking at hubs.  All
> three listed above have great reputations, and are well regarded.
> From what I've read, Hopes are the loudest, followed by King and then
> White.  Does anyone have first hand knowledge with that?  I'm leaning
> toward White as they look the best to me and are made in CA which
> would be a tie-breaker if necessary.  Any thoughts on the noise or
> anything else (seals, maintenance, resale)?
>
> http://chrisking.com/hubs
>
> http://www.whiteind.com/rearhubs/cassettehubs.html
>
> http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG29

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[Philip Williamson]

There Is No Escaping The Angry Bee.

Philip

On Nov 3, 3:21 pm, Joe Bartoe <jbar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The answer to the angry bee sound of a King hub is to keep pedaling. Coasting is for sissies!
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Bartoe
>
> Synaptic Cycles Bicycle Rentals, Inc.
> email: j...@synapticcycles.com
> website:www.synapticcycles.com
> Twitter: @synapticcycles
>
> phone: 949-374-6079
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:05:42 -0700
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: Fancy Hub Conundrum: Chris King vs. White Industries vs. Hope

> > From: clotht...@gmail.com

[bionnaki]

go with the White Industries for sure.
I love my H3 hub.

[jeffrey kane]

Steve, I think it's high time you posted some pics of that custom with
a little review!!!

On Nov 3, 3:25 pm, Steven Frederick <stl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have a WI freehub on my 650b custom--it's fantastic.  A very Campy
> like buzz-not so loud as some I've heard but not as quiet as Shimano.
> Recommended.
>
> Haven't had it long enough to speak to reliability or service but they
> are well reviewed and it seems to turn forever when you give it a
> little spin.
>
> Steve
>

> On Thu, Nov 3, 2011 at 3:10 PM, cyclotour...@gmail.com

[Steven Frederick]

Oh, man-loudest hubs I EVER heard were the first-generation Hugi's I
had some years ago. They were ridiculous. Good hubs, though...

Steve

[numbnuts]

DT Swiss, in particular the 240s, are the best hubs out there. I mention them because no one else has.

Otherwise, the others mentioned are nice, in their own ways.

No need to clog up the thread with details about the 240s, since the OP didn't ask about them, but if anyone wants to hear the 'whys' of my opinion, off list maybe.

All the best,

Chris

Redding, Ca.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I've been building a fair number of wheels on the White Industries hubs, and compared to some other high-end hubs, they seem to be a bargain in terms of price and quality. For my own bikes, I've gradually been thinning the herd of boutique parts, and now my hub of choice is the Shimano XT 770 series - lightweight, strong, reliable, and affordable.

[cyclotourist]

Thanks Jim, the Whites do seem to be priced well.  As for the Shimanos, those are still in the running.  The 770s are nice, I need disc so am looking at the M756 models.  Do you/anyone else know if those are still have steel axles?

On Fri, Nov 4, 2011 at 6:52 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

I've been building a fair number of wheels on the White Industries hubs, and compared to some other high-end hubs, they seem to be a bargain in terms of price and quality. For my own bikes, I've gradually been thinning the herd of boutique parts, and now my hub of choice is the Shimano XT 770 series - lightweight, strong, reliable, and affordable.

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[Michael_S]

The 756 model has cro-mo axles, the later models switched to aluminum axles to save weight. Due to the lower mechanical properties of aluminum  they had to make the axle larger in diameter which resulted in making the ball bearings smaller to fit inside the hub body. Now whether this decreases the life of the bearings I have not seen any data that reflects that, but in general larger ball bearing are a good thing. 

 

~mike

[bionnaki]

I think the WI freehub sounds just right. A nice, crisp metallic buzzzz.

you can hear all of these hubs on youtube, btw.
this for example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKbKfxu5_oQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63xVOT1bmbc

I've ridden my H3 hub for awhile...through rain, snow, giant post-rain puddles...and everything is still smooth. White makes quality products...and their customer service is excellent.

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[Bill M.]

Piling on, I have a set of WI's and have owned another set in the
past. No issues with either set, beautiful finish, light, smooth,
etc. If used in heavy muck I might be concerned a bit with the small
setscrews that hold the end caps of the Whites packing up with crud,
but mine have mostly seen road use and have been no problem.

Bill

On Nov 3, 12:10 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>

[Kris]

Just want to through Industry Nine out there...easily on par with the
other hubs mentioned and made in the US (local for me in NC)

http://www.industrynine.net/Hubs

> >http://www.hopetech.com/page.aspx?itemID=SPG29- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Steven Frederick]

No silver option, though right?

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[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Hi Chris, thanks for throwing the DT option out there. They seem to
have so many alpha-numberic model names that I didn't even want to
start delving into them. But the 240 are a good starting place?
Quiet-ish? I also wonder about American Classic, another line I
really don't know anything about...

[Garth]

What about Phil hubs?  Lickton's aka lickbike.com always has had the best prices on Phil hubs :) ... but I've not seen lately.

Unless you build you own wheels, or can have them built cheaply ... or cost is no concern ... I wouldn't recommend  Shimano hubs as they (still) don't use cartridge bearings. I won't use anything but hubs with those... as they'll last literally forever :)  A wheel is only as good as the cheapest part.  I prize my Joe Young built wheels ... and would never think of skimping on the hub to save a few $$.  We gotta put it into perspective .... people pay all sorts of money buying stuff that will never last even remotely as long as a hub or wheel. ... but when it comes down to spending a few $$ extra for a hub or rim .. they balk. . . . blinded by the sense of lack and undeservedness.   Spend the money to get what you want and celebrate it brother :)

[Garth]

For rims I've used Mavic's T519/A719's for the last 12 years without flaw. Mavic's still use the good ol' double eyelets.

The DT TK540 is another rim with double eyelets I'd recommend too.

[Tim McNamara]

On Nov 4, 2011, at 3:04 PM, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

> Hi Chris, thanks for throwing the DT option out there. They seem to
> have so many alpha-numberic model names that I didn't even want to
> start delving into them. But the 240 are a good starting place?
> Quiet-ish?

No. Loud and somewhat non-reliable (pawl slippage in cold weather).

Many of these boutique hubs have significant design compromises especially in pawl design. They tend to be different for the sake of different and avoiding patent issues. I've had some of the hubs from some of the makers that have been talked about, none were better than standard Shimano or Campy hubs in terms of performance and most had significant shortcomings.

When it comes to hubs you're really not going to get better performance and reliability than you can from Shimano. If I was going to buy a boutique hub, it would be Phil. They've been at it longer than anyone else in that market and have worked the bugs out. Best of the lot in boutique hubs IMHO.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

We are currently in the process of warrantying a newish Phil cassette hub that self-destructed. Phil has wonderful customer service, but I'm not sure their hubs are necessarily less prone to failure than more mundane options.

[cyclot...@gmail.com]

Shimano is the standby, I'm just checking out the other options :-)

Phils are fine, I'm trying to see what else is out there. I do like
their ease of serviceability, not sure how I feel about the minimal
seals for the bearings.

On Nov 4, 2:15 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

[Montclair BobbyB]

So many nice hubs out there... Of all the ones I currently own (or
have owned) my faves:

The Kings or Hadleys are my favorite for mountain biking... (Have a
set of each on my Niner MCRs) I love the killer bee sound... never
obnoxious... the sound of ratcheting pawls can bring only joy...
Phil Wood freewheel hub on my Riv Bomba... I simply sleep better at
night (with a smile on my face) just knowing I have a Phil hub
Favorite vintage hub... Older (late 80s/early 90s) Shimano Deore XT
M730s... oh these are nice and they last forever...

But the Whites are so nice, too... as are the Hopes... I don't know if
I've ever really hated a hub in my life... oh, except for the Mavic
Crossland... made me depressed for months....

On Nov 3, 3:10 pm, "cyclotour...@gmail.com" <cyclotour...@gmail.com>

[Montclair BobbyB]

Jim, I too had a Phil cassette hub fail (busted interior teeth) after
owning a short while... surprised the heck out of me... just didn't
expect it to fail like that... The Phil Pholks replaced it no
questions asked, but I have since opted for the freewheel version...
easier to replace on my own.

On Nov 4, 5:32 pm, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

[numbnuts]

The only DT Swiss hub that uses a pawl system is the 370, and it's at least as reliable as any Shimano pawl system. The star ratchet that the 240 uses is quiet (much more so than a CK) when properly maintained and can be next to silent if one uses a lil extra grease between the stars. And the reliability of the star ratchet system is on par with the reliability of a CK freewheel. There are other reasons to choose a DT Swiss hub over the others mentioned, like the use of ISO bearings. This is not unique, but CK uses proprietary bearings, so you gotta go back to CK for replacements. So the two best are the CK and the DT Swiss, with DT Swiss getting the nod from me for using ISO bearings, being 100% user serviceable, and having a bullet proof freewheel system that is easily made very quiet. But DT Swiss hubs ain't sexy pretty, and more or less only come in black.

[Bill M.]

I have a set of Phil cassette hubs. No issues over several thousand
miles, but they are both very heavy and very expensive. The WI's are
about a pound lighter for the pair, cost less and work beautifully.

Bill

On Nov 4, 2:15 pm, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

[brian feltovich]

Plus one for the White Ind. hubs. Have a set of wheels with WI hubs; they're pretty and sound just right to my ears. Can't justify the extra expense over Shimano hubs, but they add a little pizazz to the bike without being annoying.

Brian 

Park City, UT

[Rob]

Another +1 for White Industries. My Saluki came with a WI M1.5 rear hub, and a SON delux on the front, both built by Peter White. These are my first really high-end wheels so I don't have anything similar to compare, but as others have said, the M1.5 spins forever, it's gorgeous, it sounds nice, and it compliments the shape of the SON and style of the Saluki perfectly.

Rob in Seattle

[charlie]

I'll take it Scott......36 hole? How cheap can I get it?

On Nov 3, 3:05 pm, "S.Cutshall" <clotht...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Agreed. Bought a King cassette hub for the Bleriot thinking I'd do my
> part for the local economy/support the Home Team, etc... never again.
> Love Chris' headsets, but The Angry Bee is not for me. Thousands of
> miles on it, still louder than a Tea Party get-together at a Metallica
> concert.
>
> On an average night, my wife & daughter can hear me coming home from a
> ride: 4 houses away, while they're inside.
>
> No Ninja riding with a King rear hub.
>
> I'm either going back to Phil or White after this hub dies--or I shoot
> it.
>
> -Scott
>

[charlie]

Is it the classic hub?

[Allingham II, Thomas J]

Hey, I'm on my way. We still on?

Sent from my iPhone

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[CCX]

EXACTLY!!!

On Nov 3, 4:21 pm, Joe Bartoe <jbar...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The answer to the angry bee sound of a King hub is to keep pedaling. Coasting is for sissies!
>
> Joe
>
> Joe Bartoe
>
> Synaptic Cycles Bicycle Rentals, Inc.
> email: j...@synapticcycles.com
> website:www.synapticcycles.com
> Twitter: @synapticcycles
>
> phone: 949-374-6079
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2011 15:05:42 -0700
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: Fancy Hub Conundrum: Chris King vs. White Industries vs. Hope
> > From: clotht...@gmail.com
> > To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
>

> > Agreed. Bought a King cassette hub for the Bleriot thinking I'd do my
> > part for the local economy/support the Home Team, etc... never again.
> > Love Chris' headsets, but The Angry Bee is not for me. Thousands of
> > miles on it, still louder than a Tea Party get-together at a Metallica
> > concert.
>
> > On an average night, my wife & daughter can hear me coming home from a
> > ride: 4 houses away, while they're inside.
>
> > No Ninja riding with a King rear hub.
>
> > I'm either going back to Phil or White after this hub dies--or I shoot
> > it.
>
> > -Scott
>
> > On Nov 3, 1:04 pm, Allan in Portland <allan_f...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> > > FWIW, you couldn't give me a Chris King. The hubs are all over Portland.
> > > Too loud, too NASCAR. The WI, which came to me through purchase of a used
> > > bike, I find pleasant in both looks and sound. It is also incredibly
> > > smooth. It spins down a stop like no other wheel I've owned.
>
> > > Regards,
> > > -Allan
>

[bionnaki]

phil cassette hubs are nearly twice as heavy and twice as expensive as white industry hubs. no problems or bugs or whatever. mine are running great through all types of conditions and muck.

as for seals...well, do you to overhaul your hubs periodically or press-in new cartridges rarely?
I like cartridge bearings -- less work.

[Tex69]

I'll grow another vote in for the White H3. I have a wheel set with
these on my newish IF Club Racer and they're, as they say, like
butta'. I haven't thrashed the IF, so no war reports, but they're
smooth and very "clean" looking and attractive.

Tim S
Louisville, Ky