What’s Driving the 650B Explosion? Interviews, Tech Breakdown & More! - Bike Rumor

[Eric Norris]

Detailed article on the spread of 650B:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/06/whats-driving-the-650b-explosion-interviews-tech-breakdown-more/


--Eric N

[Liesl]

Funny that Riv/Grant, who it's fair to say started the whole dang thing, isn't mentioned at all (at least in my cursory review)

[Peter Morgano]

Yeah, I scanned for that too, not a mention of Grant or Jan. I guess the focus was on the hammerhead scene though so "touring" bikes werent relevant to the discussion.

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:18 PM, Liesl <li...@smm.org> wrote:

Funny that Riv/Grant, who it's fair to say started the whole dang thing, isn't mentioned at all (at least in my cursory review)

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/OV8HN4aiuYEJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Daniel M]

Seeing the three wheel sizes next to each other, particularly with tires mounted, shows that 650B is way closer to 26" than 29".  I would guess that the vast majority of riders would not notice the difference if you were to swap their wheels from 26" to 650B and back and not tell them.  It all goes to further my feeling that 26" is a vastly underappreciated wheel size for city, "country", and touring bikes.

Daniel M



On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:49:43 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

Detailed article on the spread of 650:

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/06/06/whats-driving-the-650b-explosion-interviews-tech-breakdown-more/


--Eric N

[John Speare]

Actually – best quote in there from Mike Ferrentino (Santa Cruz) is about GP:

 

“…Another thing to consider – IF this takes off, does anyone realize how much crow the industry is going to have to eat listening to grant petersen saying “I told you so?””

 

Bonus point for spelling his name right too.

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Jun 7, 2012 at 3:32 PM, John Speare <jo...@phred.org> wrote:
> Actually – best quote in there from Mike Ferrentino (Santa Cruz) is about
> GP:
>
>
>
> “…Another thing to consider – IF this takes off, does anyone realize how
> much crow the industry is going to have to eat listening to grant petersen
> saying “I told you so?””
>
>
>
> Bonus point for spelling his name right too.
>
>

I think that needs to be on a tshirt. :)

-sv

[pb]

Absolutely fascinating set of comments on that web page!  I was very interested by the reticence of Specialized -- I thought their response that dealers wouldn't want to stock three wheel sizes was reasonable and pragmatic, if a bit conservative ...  but those folks are very smart.

 

Did I really read correctly that Scott, which built the World Cup bike that has gotten so much attention, has no intention of bringing 650B to the market?  If anyone would be jumping on the bandwagon, you'd think it would be them. 

 

~pb

(almost built a 650 bike about a year ago, but then didn't)

 

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:49:43 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

[Jan Heine]

On Jun 7, 12:51 pm, pb <pbridge...@aol.com> wrote:
> Absolutely fascinating set of comments on that web page!  I was very
> interested by the reticence of Specialized -- I thought their response that
> dealers wouldn't want to stock three wheel sizes was reasonable and
> pragmatic, if a bit conservative ...  but those folks are very smart.

I agree that Specialized is very smart, but I think a different
dynamic is at work: Specialized and Trek are the big leaders in 29"
mountain bikes. They jumped on that boat early and now reap the
rewards. 650B (sorry, I refuse to call it 27.5") is an attempt by
those who missed the 29er boat to usurp that movement.

Of course, Specialized hopes 650B is just a passing fad, and they can
go back to selling their 29ers. Specialized is in a catch-22: Jump
onto the 650B bandwagon, and they legitimate the whole movement. Sit
it out, and they risk missing the boat. Currently, they are hedging
their bets. (At first, they said "No way, it's stupid," now they are
beginning to sound more open.) I would not be surprised if they had
two lineups in preparation for 2014 – one without 650B and one with
650B. At the last moment, they would decide what to do based on how
things are playing out.

The technical merits may be there, but that rarely is what drives the
industry.

Oh, and I couldn't help but laugh when I read that 650B wheels were
used on "French cruiser and city bikes." I guess the wonderful
randonneur bikes of the 1950s look like "cruiser bikes" to modern
mountain bike journalists!

Jan Heine
Editor
Bicycle Quarterly
http://www.bikequarterly.com

Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/

[Michael_S]

unfortunately, the thing I was hoping for... a new 650Bx 40 to 45mm knobby tire isn't in anyone's comments. The closest thing is the Kenda Karma at 50mm. Hopefully they will run small. 

~mike

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:49:43 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Thu, 2012-06-07 at 13:33 -0700, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Oh, and I couldn't help but laugh when I read that 650B wheels were
> used on "French cruiser and city bikes." I guess the wonderful
> randonneur bikes of the 1950s look like "cruiser bikes" to modern
> mountain bike journalists!
>

You are assuming those modern mountain bike journalists have ever seen
any of those wonderful randonneur bikes of the 1950s. I think not --
but if they did I agree, they wouldn't recognize them.

I'll go farther: given how mountain bikes pretty much are actually used
by the vast majority of customers, had we in the USA any knowledge of
those 650B randonneur bikes of the 1950s, the mountain bike would never
have gotten off the ground. A 650B randonneur, possibly with a flat or
riser bar, is a hundred times better answer to the problem 90% of
mountain bike purchasers were actually trying to solve.

[Tim McNamara]

Usually 650B explosions are the result of the bead not being well-seated on the rim.

[Brewster Fong]

This is a very good point! However, the article was written towards an MTB slant and that is how the tire size is being marketed. My buddy who has like 12 or 14 bikes and rides like a 53cm recently had a custom "27.5 in" (584mm) bike built for mtbing. He also recently had a custom "touring/rando" style bike build for road riding, but had it built around 700c (622mm) tires. He considered 650B road wheels, but said 700c was more his "style."

 

As someone else stated, one big reason mtb took off in the late 80s/early 90s was because it used a flat riser style bar. In contrast, "touring bikes" were still using drop bars and as the late and great Sheldon Brown stated way back, he couldn't move them. He was selling excellent NOS Japanese made touring bikes that were two to three year old back then because nobody wanted "touring bikes."  If the touring bikes had flat riser bars,things might have been totally different.....Good Luck!

[dougP]

I think Grant's a bit too classy to gloat, but the T-shirt idea has
some charm. I have the one that states "Still lugged steel;
vindication will come. Just you wait."

Maybe "650B: a 20th century idea, recently re-discovered"

dougP (confused enough by 700c & 26")

On Jun 7, 12:35 pm, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:

[cyclotourist]

That was a good read, thanks for passing it along.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

**
“I believe in an America where millions of Americans believe in an America that’s the America millions of Americans believe in. That’s the America I love.”

[Peter Morgano]

"650b—An uphill climb for a downhill tire" would be pretty appropriate considering what I have been reading on it.

[ascpgh]

Specialized was reticent of the "29er" movement and while late to the
game, was clearly working out issues or R & D near the end of their
public hesitation. The have supply chain needs that make them less
than agile in response to changes in the enthusiast/customer base
norms. They have a large dealer base who has been dragged, crying and
flailing into each of the innovations they decided to introduce and
support. Much must be appreciated from the average dealer's tolerance
for the "next thing". We all know the little shop with the safest
(mundane) stock and how if not pressed by the big S will not put much
from the catalog on their floor. Innovations ( or resurgence as with
the 650B) will come from small makers/builders and even though the
650B wheel and tire has been machined well over the years here.

> I was very interested by the reticence of Specialized -- I thought their response that
> dealers wouldn't want to stock three wheel sizes was reasonable and
> pragmatic, if a bit conservative ...  but those folks are very smart.

Scott would be the greatest oaf of sponsored racing to equip a rider
with overtly atypical equipment and not stand there ready to ring the
register in the wake of success. The readership of Bicycling Magazine
alone would provide enough sales, appropriate or not, in the fierce
response to have the same thing the winner did. Why bother to expend
money racing otherwise?

> Did I really read correctly that Scott, which built the World Cup bike that
> has gotten so much attention, has no intention of bringing 650B to the
> market?  If anyone would be jumping on the bandwagon, you'd think it would
> be them.

ANDY
Pittsburgh

[ascpgh]

Same of automotive interests; the majority are well-served by
appliance-quality offerings. Alleged enthusiasts are often narrow of
interst or exposure. Many self described performance auto buffs would
have would be amazed by a personal tour of car with a modern in-line
six with variable DOHC and other subtle technical features.

Many of those fans' narrow vision or interest places them in less than
full-solution transportation unless able to fill the garage with
special interest examples besides their daily drivers. Same hurdle for
cyclists based on the "thin the herd" posts announcing bikes for sale
here.

It takes individuals able to identify themselves separately from the
passion of their enthusiast vein in order to appreciate other
formulas, same with the bicycling public and, as we all have groaned,
the cycling press. 650B is not going away, it will just not be easy
enough to justify to dealers of Trek & Specialized to force them into
floor planning a model and some tires to those non-believers/glacier
speed adopters.

ANDY
Pittsburgh

[Peter Pesce]

Great read. I was really struck by the herd mentality evident in the commentary - the almost palpable desperation for something, anything, "new" to sell to a saturated market, offset by the terror of being first, and maybe getting hung out to dry if you end up being the only!

It is such a stark contrast to the attitude expressed by Grant, Jan et al - "we're doing "X" because nobody else is willing to do "X."

Pete in CT

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I'd say 650B is the first true innovation, if you can call it that, in mountain bike wheel size. The 559 standard is only standard because that was the size of the old ballooners favored by the MTB pioneers 30-some years ago, not because 559 has magical properties. Then somebody thought it was a neat idea to try to build a mountain bike around another widely available rim size, 622, rebranding it 29". Now maybe 584 is the best of both worlds? We'll see.

I agree that such innovations can seem pointless and even desperate. But cumulatively, over time, there are lots of little improvements that add up to better products. The MTB arena seems to be more open to innovation and experimentation. It's hard to imagine that 622 might someday be challenged as the default size for road bikes...

[Patrick in VT]

On Jun 7, 3:19 pm, Peter Morgano <uscpeter11...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Yeah, I scanned for that too, not a mention of Grant or Jan. I guess the
> focus was on the hammerhead scene though so "touring" bikes werent relevant
> to the discussion.

I don't see it as having anything to do with hammerheads or touring
bikes - the context is mountain biking, and while the wheel size is
the same, there's just nothing comparable about 650b road use and 650b
MTB use. If anyone deserves a bigger nod, it's Kirk Pacenti. As far
as I know, Grant or Jan are designing or discussing the merits of 650b
wheels on frames developed for long travel suspension. That doesn't
mean that what Grant, Jan, et al. have brought to the table isn't full
of common sense and awesomeness, but MTB is a completely different
realm.

anyway, there seems to be a solid market of MTBers (mostly
recreational and un-racer types, i might add) looking for bigger
wheeled, longer travel bikes to handle increasingly aggressive/
technical mountain biking - this is where 29ers have their limits.
650b could be a viable alternative and have an advantage there for
those unwilling to go back to 26ers.

I'm in the market for a new all-mountain rig . .. the options are very
intriguing. and I like that as a consumer!

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 8, 2012, at 11:13 AM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I'd say 650B is the first true innovation, if you can call it that, in mountain bike wheel size. The 559 standard is only standard because that was the size of the old ballooners favored by the MTB pioneers 30-some years ago, not because 559 has magical properties. Then somebody thought it was a neat idea to try to build a mountain bike around another widely available rim size, 622, rebranding it 29". Now maybe 584 is the best of both worlds? We'll see.

It's interesting. Some of us old duffers may recall Bianchi marketing 700C MTB's in the early 90s to pretty resounding failure. I think that was one of Sky Yeager's babies- good at thinking outside of the usual.

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:25 AM, Peter Pesce <pete...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great read. I was really struck by the herd mentality evident in the commentary - the almost palpable desperation for something, anything, "new" to sell to a saturated market, offset by the terror of being first, and maybe getting hung out to dry if you end up being the only!

It is such a stark contrast to the attitude expressed by Grant, Jan et al - "we're doing "X" because nobody else is willing to do "X."

Grant and Jan and Velo Orange and Wallbike are doing what good entrepreneurs do:  making the products they want to have.  Trek and Specialized and Cannondale etc. do what corporate businesses do:  try to guess what the "market" wants and trying to make that.  The former create markets, the latter exploit markets.  The former can reinvent themselves almost at will but the latter can't.  The former drive the direction of the market with much more influence than the latter.

The former approach was behind the originations and resurgence of Apple.  When they were run from the corporate perspective by Scully and Amelio, they nearly tanked several times.  Jobs- for all his personality and behavioral issues- kept the central notion of "what products do I really want" as a center of product design.  Their market research philosophy was basically "wow, that's really f***ing cool!".  The result is the most valuable corporation in the world because it is driven by product design, building the products that Jobs and his desk freak thought wold be really cool to have, starting with a home brew computer built in a garage and leading up to the iPad I am typing this on.  

I see the same fundamental approach at Rivendell.  Grant thought that 650B was cool and decided to sell them, and here we are with a "650B revolution" three or four years later.

[Peter Morgano]

Not wanting to start a thing here but please dont compare Grant to Jobs, one is an innovator who ASKS people to trust him along for the ride while Jobs was more of a TELL you kind of person who said you would be sorry if you didnt listen to him, and most who didnt were, unfortunately.  Corporate culture is important to me so I dont buy apple products, making your "innovations" on the backs of slave and child labor is something GP has never had to stoop to, then again he isnt driven purely by profit like Apple is.  Apple is an innovator but they have used thier innovations and market share to push around smaller companies and foist over-priced slave labor products on a market that has been told Apple products are the thing to have.  I admire a "no made in china" policy at Riv and that Grant knows who is making the bikes in Taiwan and that the workeres there are treated fairly.  Grant and Jobs, both innovators who changed thier respective markets only GP is heads and tails above Jobs in morals, respect and professionalism. Sorry, rant over now, feel free to flame me, haha. 

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

[Tim McNamara]

And typing somewhat erratically, I see. The sprit of the Newton lives!

[William]

I'm personally not that interested in the next wave of mountain bikes.  I'm happy that the 650B explosion will make it easier for me to buy an inner tube at more shops.  I hope that means I'll have even more choices in tires, but I'm not counting on a good 35mm road tire or a good 42mm knobby.  The thing in that article that caught my eyes was that cool triple box American Classic rim.  That looks like it's made for rim brakes.  maybe.  

On Thursday, June 7, 2012 11:49:43 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2012-06-08 at 13:17 -0700, William wrote:
> I'm happy that the 650B explosion will make it easier for me to buy an
> inner tube at more shops.

Every bike shop in the USA carries tubes that fit 650B, I believe. In
some brands, it's 559x1.25-1.5, others it's 559x1.5-1.75.

[Jan Heine]

On Jun 8, 9:13 am, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thill....@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> But cumulatively, over time, there are lots of little improvements that add up to better products. The MTB arena seems to be more open to innovation and experimentation. It's hard to imagine that 622 might someday be challenged as the default size for road bikes...

Jim, you make an interesting point. From a purely technical
perspective, 622 (700C) on road bikes is doomed. As people realize
that wider tires can roll as fast as narrow ones - racing bikes are
fast not because of their narrow tires, but because of their high-
performance frames - it makes little sense to ride on narrow tires.
(The pros are already going to 25 mm tires, as that is the largest
they can fit inside their frames and underneath their brakes.)

And as we found in our testing, if you want to preserve the nimble
handling of a performance bike, but ride 42 mm tires, you need to
decrease the wheel size to keep the rotational inertia the same. A
700C x 42 mm tire never will handle the same as a good racing bike,
whereas a 650B x 42 mm has the same rotational inertia and can be made
to feel very similar.

It's nothing new: When motorcycle tires got fatter, motorcycle wheels
became smaller. Then low-profile tires were introduced, and motorcycle
wheels became larger again.

Wouldn't it be funny if 15 years from now, 650B was the standard wheel
size for both mountain bikes and road bikes?

[Steve Palincsar]

I think the Zombie Apocalypse will come before that happens. And I say
that as a dedicated 650B fan. I think there's a better chance I'll be
struck on the head by a meteorite than that we'll live to see the pro
peloton switch to 650B. (Now if you said the pro peloton was going to
give up 23mm clinchers and switch to wide tubulars, that's another
story. They've basically already given up 23mm clinchers, right?)

[Jan Heine]

> I think there's a better chance I'll be
> struck on the head by a meteorite than that we'll live to see the pro
> peloton switch to 650B.

That is why I said: "From a purely technical perspective..."

However, things can change. In the 1980s, bicycle tourists were told
to use 27" wheels, because you always can get tires for those, whereas
700C can be hard to find... Today, you'll have to look hard for a 27"
tire.

[Eric Platt]

Strange, from my personal riding perspective, I've come to prefer wider (37 to 40mm) 700C tires.  Whereas, my attempt at liking 650B was so sub-optimal I shall refrain from trying again. 

 

The handling seems to work best for me with those tires.  And there are sufficient tires (and bikes) available to make me happy. 

 

Am trying to decide if 26x2.00" is also worth keeping. As it may be more useful on midwest gravel roads. 

 

Eric Platt

St. Paul, MN

[Tim McNamara]

On Jun 8, 2012, at 10:34 PM, Jan Heine wrote:
>> I think there's a better chance I'll be
>> struck on the head by a meteorite than that we'll live to see the pro
>> peloton switch to 650B.
>
> That is why I said: "From a purely technical perspective..."
>
> However, things can change. In the 1980s, bicycle tourists were told
> to use 27" wheels, because you always can get tires for those, whereas
> 700C can be hard to find... Today, you'll have to look hard for a 27"
> tire.

Tourists going 'round the world are best off with a 559 tire size, which are available everywhere. China, India, the middle of Africa, South America, North America, Europe. You might not be able to get the perfect tire but you can get a tire that will get you to somewhere that can provide you with the tire of your choice.