Smaller tires on Cliffhanger rims? Snoqualmie (44mm) or small as 38mm? Sam Hillborne 700c

[Pancake]

Summary: plan to switch to tubeless setup, but how small a tire is safe / wise on a 700c Velocity Cliffhanger rim? Snoqualmie (44mm) should be fine, but can I use even smaller tires if I want later?

Details: 

Cliffhangers are tubeless compatible, 25mm internal and 30mm external width rims. Basically a wider, tubeless ready version of the Atlas rims I have now. 

Velocity says the optimal tire width for Cliffhanger rims in 700c is 45mm - 65mm. I figure my current Snoqualmie tires will work fine, but if I want to slap on fenders someday I would need to use 40mm tires, maybe 38mm. 

Someone posted that they comfortably ran 40mm tires on Cliffhangers, they even suggested it added to the "supple" feel of the ride. Is 40mm as low as you would consider for these rims, or would 38mm be reasonable? 

Why tubeless? 6 flats in a month (around 250 miles) from glass and goatheads plus a couple pinch flats. Twice got two flats on the same short ride. Not something stuck in the tire, I found a new thorn or glass shard every time (or the large cut from pinch flats). That pushed me over the tubeless edge and I'm looking to buy a tubeless wheelset. I currently have Atlas rims and Snoqualmie 44mm tires on my fenderless Sam Hillborne. 230 pound rider with mostly roads but plenty of random gravel and some slow single track thrown in.

Planning on XT hubs, DT Swiss double butted spokes, Cliffhanger rims, brass DT nipples, (wheelset built for $375) and Snoqualmie Pass tires. Eventually this wheelset could make it to my Cheviot if the versatile Sam it switched around one day, but the Cheviot rides nicely now with Atlas rims and a dynamo hub and Basketball tires as my daily commuter.

Alternatively, I can get Cliffhanger rims, straight DT spokes, and Deore hubs wheelset machine built for $255 shipped is someone wants to convince me that the Deore hubs are good enough and the straight spokes are fine for a $120 savings. 

Thanks for your suggestions and advice in advance,

Abe in Napa with too many flats

[esoterica etc]

Abe,

Earlier this year, I had this very same question, albeit for 650b Cliffhangers instead of your 700c ones. I was wanting to find out what Velocity’s opinion was on running narrower tires outside of the “optimum range”- specifically, from 43mm down to 38mm. I contacted them and here’s their response:

“Hello Mark,

 

You might be ok with a 43mm, taking it down to 38 is probably too risky.  The skinnier you go, the greater the chance of a tire blow off.  Running with tubes is more secure than without, but I can’t really say what the limits are.  Some tires fit tighter than others so there is no hard and fast rule.”

FWIW, I ended up getting a different, narrower wheelset in which 38-44mm was in the “optimum range”. 

~Mark 

Raleigh, NC

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[Pancake]

Marc, thanks for the detailed and specific reply! What wheelset / rim did you end up using instead?
Abe

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

$255 Cliffhanger wheelset?! Where? (If you don't mind sharing) I'll take 2 please...
-Kai

[esoterica etc]

Abe,

I ended up getting a used wheelset with Velocity Atlas rims and I’ve been running Soma Cazaderos (42mm) on them. No issues at all and I’m really happy with the wheelset and the tires.

~Mark

> On Sep 27, 2019, at 12:44, Pancake <abe.g...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Marc, thanks for the detailed and specific reply! What wheelset / rim did you end up using instead?
> Abe
>

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[Pancake]

Treefort bikes:

$145 for rear: https://www.treefortbikes.com/Quality-Wheels-Rear-Wheel-Clydesdale-XL-Rim-Brake-700c

$110 for front: https://www.treefortbikes.com/Quality-Wheels-Front-Wheel-Clydesdale-XL-Rim-Brake-700c

The front seems to be available everywhere else for $125. 

Limitations on this wheelset are it's Deore hubs (not LX T670, not XT T780), straight gauge spokes, and is machine built. Adds some weight and apparently the seals on the deore hubs are not as good, but still good. 

Abe

[Garth]

I can't speak to Cliffhangers but I used to ride 28-30mm tires on 25mm(OD) Mavic A719 rims. I never thought twice about. I see now Mavic list the rims as for 25-47mm tires.  In Road racing circles it's common to pair a 25mm tire and 25mm rims.  Velocity may be covering their legal agreements in their recommendations.

[Ed Carolipio]

I ran 650b Cliffhangers with 43mm Panaracer Gravel King slicks for a bit on an AHH. No issues, but I wouldn't be confident going with anything skinnier.

On the wheelset, I personally prefer handbuilt wheelsets but I would have no heatburn running Deores with straight gauge spokes. I'd probably grease and adjust the hubs before first use, and de-tension/re-tension the machine built wheel.

--Ed C.

[Pancake]

Taken with a grain of salt: another forum post says that Velocity told him 38mm was fine for the Cliffhanger - 

I spoke to Velocity and they are confident that although the Cliffhanger is designed to work with wider tires, they will work very well with the 38 width.

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[John McBurney]

I run tubeless compass 38 rear and 42 front on cliffhangers with no problems

John

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[Pancake]

And with John’s answer we have a winner! Thanks John!

Next: did you use the Velocity 21mm tape and valves?
Which sealant did you use? Orange Endurance? Stan’s?

[John McBurney]

Another thing to consider if your doing a custom build is to use Sapim Strong spokes. Sapim uses the highest strength stainless alloy in the Stongs - came as C X-ray bladed spokes while DT uses a lower grade steel in heavier grade spokes. The combination of a heavier gauge high strength spoke with a robust rim built by a good wheelbuilder produces a truly robust wheel. 

https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/

I’m not sure what kind of tape we used but I think it was Stan’s.  Valves Stans I’m pretty sure. 

For sealant I used Stan’s but have purchased the new Panaracer sealant that Compass sells. I’ll use this when these tires need to be replaced. 

https://www.renehersecycles.com/new-sealant-for-rene-herse-tires/

John

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[Pancake]

Good tips John, thanks. I am leaning toward hand built wheelset, but now that I've seen these Velo Orange Voyager rims I'd a good reason to get anything different. 

Their size (38-60mm tires) is right between Velocity's Atlas (isn't tubeless compatible/ready, tires 25-45mm) and Cliffhanger (tubeless ready, tires 45-65mm) at a similar/lower price and similar/lower weight. And they are silver vs. the black Cliffhanger (though the polished version is nice, it's quite a bit more expensive and not well stocked).

I think you convinced me that Sapim spokes are worth considering, though I've had great luck so far with 4 wheels built with DT Swiss 14/15/14 double butted spokes (2.0-1.8-2.0mm). Rich Lesnik seems to use the DT double butted spokes and he sure knows what he's doing. I'll look at the Sapims again, though 2.3-2.0mm is super beefy for what I'm after. Good "Choosing Spokes Advice" link. 

I forgot about the Rene/Panaracer sealant, seems like a good match with the Rene/Panaracer tires. I noticed that Orange sealant seeps a bit of orange residue on tan sidewall tires and I'd rather avoid that if the performance of the sealants is about the same. 

I'm guessing that the tubeless stems are all about the same, just need the right length for the rim size, right?

Abe

On Sunday, September 29, 2019 at 5:53:24 AM UTC-7, John McBurney wrote:

Another thing to consider if your doing a custom build is to use Sapim Strong spokes. Sapim uses the highest strength stainless alloy in the Stongs - came as C X-ray bladed spokes while DT uses a lower grade steel in heavier grade spokes. The combination of a heavier gauge high strength spoke with a robust rim built by a good wheelbuilder produces a truly robust wheel. 

https://dcrwheels.co.uk/custom-wheelsets/choosing-spokes-advice/

I’m not sure what kind of tape we used but I think it was Stan’s.  Valves Stans I’m pretty sure. 

For sealant I used Stan’s but have purchased the new Panaracer sealant that Compass sells. I’ll use this when these tires need to be replaced. 

https://www.renehersecycles.com/new-sealant-for-rene-herse-tires/

John

On Sat, Sep 28, 2019 at 7:44 PM Pancake <abe.g...@gmail.com> wrote:

And with John’s answer we have a winner! Thanks John!

Next: did you use the Velocity 21mm tape and valves?
Which sealant did you use? Orange Endurance? Stan’s?

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[John McBurney]

I’m not sure on the stems  Mine have been fine. 

I’m not sure about VO rims. Have you considered Pancentti or HED Belgium? 

https://www.renehersecycles.com/product-category/components/rims/

John

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[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

Handbuilt wheels are best (assuming a good builder), but $145 for a rear wheel was too good for me to pass on, I bought two. I'll get some handbuilt fronts with Dyno hubs I've got, maybe even my own hands if I can find the time.
-Kai (60mm tubeless Big Ones/G-ones por vida)