thoughts on the current state of the "Riv-ish" bicycle marketplace

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

In the recent thread about SunTour's comeback, this quote was presented:

"Junzo feels the time is right to re-enter the bicycle component business.  As he puts it “the market is too race-centric;  carbon fiber, electric shifting, full suspension, 11 speed, doesn’t really enhance the enjoyment of cycling.  In the 1970’s and 80’s we cycled to be closer to nature, for the environment, for our health, for the simple beauty of cycling.”  For these reasons SunXCD will focus on touring and randonneuring components which were the focus of SunTour during its heyday."

Of course, most of us Riv fans will note that this echoes Grant's published opinions over the years, as well as the sales pitches of a few brands who've tried, with varying success, to get into the Riv-ish segment of the market. I "discovered" Riv almost 10 years ago because I wanted a certain type of bike that didn't seem to exist at local shops. What I wanted was a touring bike, and the Atlantis I bought filled that desire. Had I been able to find a Trek 520 locally, or if the LHT existed back then, my story may have taken some different turns. But it was certainly true back then that any readily available higher quality bike was going to be some kind of impractical skinny tire road bike. Not my style.

But things have changed drastically. Sure, many of us are baffled by electronic shifting and seemingly delicate CF and 11-sp cassettes that have become available. But at the same time, a HUGE variety of touring and "adventure" bikes, parts, and accessories have become not only available, but mainstream. So while I wish Junzo and SunTour success, I thought his rationale seemed hollow, or at least 5-10 years too late.

[Seth Vidal]

Jim,

 Did you just say that you were riv-friendly before riv-friendly was cool? :)

-sv

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[Stephen S]

Does that make someone a "Retro Hipster Grouch" or a "Retro Grouch Hipster" or even a "Hipster Retro Grouch"? =)

Stephen

[Seth Vidal]

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 5:43 PM, Stephen S <elph...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does that make someone a "Retro Hipster Grouch" or a "Retro Grouch Hipster" or even a "Hipster Retro Grouch"? =)

Stephen

Retro Grouch is hipster before hipster was cool. :)

-sv

 

[ascpgh]

Hipster (when it was cool) = retrogrouch with beausage. "Your cool stuff is too new to be real"

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

For some reason, this thread reminds me of a college acquaintance who enjoyed the cocktail known as the Old Fashioned. But since that sounds like something an old geezer would drink, he took it upon himself to rename it the "Space Age".

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2013-04-19 at 19:16 -0700, sameness wrote:
> As a huge SunTour fan, I do catch that ever-so-faint whiff of
> marketing revisionism. My recollection of most of their technological
> innovations and attendant high-end parts were, err... geared decidedly
> towards racing, both on and off road.

The VGT Luxe and Compe V were by far the best touring equipment of their
era, so far ahead there was nothing in second place.

[Matthew J]

The Suntour 14-34 winner pro freewheel may have been marketed to mtb racers. Matched to a MaxiCar hub its proving to be a quite durable touring piece.

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Chris W: that's a good point. I sorta live in a bubble. Not only do I work in a shop where we deal with approximately zero actual racers, very few of my customers own or ride mass market "road bikes". Of course, in the twin cities, one can't miss the broad presence of Surly.

[ted]

And here in the sf east bay it's easy to forget how lucky we are to be able to just pop over to RBW WHQ and test ride most any riv most any time we like. If I lived someplace else, I'm not sure what I'd be riding. We more ambasidors of the non racing options in more places.

[Eric Platt]

Plus, the Twin Cities has a history of bike shops that cater to non racers.  Not as exclusively as Jim does, but they have been here. We seem to be unusual in that respect.

On Apr 20, 2013 7:39 AM, "Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery" <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

Chris W: that's a good point. I sorta live in a bubble. Not only do I work in a shop where we deal with approximately zero actual racers, very few of my customers own or ride mass market "road bikes". Of course, in the twin cities, one can't miss the broad presence of Surly.

[RJM]

Where I live it is very race bike oriented, on the road or on the trail. I don't see too many people riding anything but race bikes dressed in full kit and I don't even think you can buy panniers. Basically Trek and Specialized rule it. Riv is my main bike shop now; I really dig the no shipping on orders of $150 or more.

[cyclotourist]

I love me an Old Fashioned...

Cheers,
David

On Fri, Apr 19, 2013 at 6:26 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery <thil...@gmail.com> wrote:

For some reason, this thread reminds me of a college acquaintance who enjoyed the cocktail known as the Old Fashioned. But since that sounds like something an old geezer would drink, he took it upon himself to rename it the "Space Age".

[Ron Mc]

San Antonio is in an urban revival, with the real estate of two large and historic downtown breweries recently developed into upscale condos, shopping centers and upscale restaurants (not quite black tie tacquerias, but close - snob appeal rules in SA).  The city has already done and is continuing a very good job on bike friendly, bike trails, and greenways.  There are a couple of routes following downtown expressway access roads, where the have laid a curb barricade to designate the bike lane.  The thing to do is haul your bike into the near northside park system, and bike into downtown for the day.  It's become a better city to ride than Austin.  Riding downtown is a breeze, and bikes can keep up with downtown traffic and light queues very easily.  There are, however, a dearth of safe routes from the suburbs into the near northside.  But they're working on that, too, turning every creek drainage into very nice greenways, with plans to connect them all (while the skinny, tired bike paths in Austin decay, and Lance's bad publicity isn't going to help).  

There is a new city bike culture springing up mostly in the downtown bike shops, though leaning toward 3-speeds and fixies, which are not useful in the Texas hill country (which begins just south of my house).  There is also a frankenbike culture, where anything old rules in any form.  We're don't have a Riv bike culture - no all-purpose, all-terrain, all-qualified, any-challenge bike shops, not even models represented in one or two shops.  The suburb bike shops are all about racing or mountain bike tech and the few non-racing bikes they carry are at best 3-speeds.  Except for downtown and one or two mechanics, you can't go into a bike shop without running into the tech snob salesman who is delighted to tell everything that is wrong with your friction-shifting steel frame dinosaur (they remind me of the fly tackle salesmen at cabelas).  I see see these 30 somethings selling small-frame racing bikes to 50 somethings, and most of these guys will be spending $1500 for a garage ornament.  The frankenbike swaps, which happen every month around town are a real hoot, though.  Closest thing we have to a Riv culture.    

[bwphoto]

Jim-
Your shop is an example of what we need more of if we are ever going to get more ordinary people on bikes. Specifically, you and a few others in the Twin Cities have been making great strides towards eliminating the intimidation factor that keeps the average person from venturing into a bike shop. While many of our shops are not what you'd call "racing" they definitely lean towards the latest and greatest race oriented technology and if they do offer an alternative it is often hidden away in a token corner dedicated to "city bikes". Even the merchandising of Surly products in some of the brand oriented shops seems to emphasize a kind of club membership, which inevitably turns away the new cyclist because they can't make the metal shift required to identify their particular needs vs those of the "demographic" the brand shops (you know which ones I'm talking about).

When a person walks into your shop there is an immediate sense of welcome, and human scale vs. a strong sense of glitz and pretentiousness present in the more main stream shops. Most people buy what is presented to them because many don't know what they really want and don't know how to find it, they don't know what they don't know. That is why the bike industry needs companies like Rivendell and small shops like yours so ordinary people can comfortably discover what might work for them without wading through lycra and carbon.

The important step that needs to be taken is for shops like yours and Chris' to be visible to the new commuter or wanna be tourist, or transportation cyclist, so they can easily (emphasis on easy) find what best fits their needs. People need to see as they are with the onset of S24 rides and the "just ride" philosophy that they don't have to be a member of the lycra ad emblazoned club to enjoy riding.

Sorry for the tome...I can't seem to write short posts.

[Zack]

I am obviously not plugged into the bike store world, but I can say I see tons of people on steel bikes with the handlebars up high riding around Burlington, VT.  It brings a smile to my face pretty much every time.  

[Lyle Bogart]

"I see tons of people on steel bikes with the handlebars up high riding around Burlington, VT." Ah, that's probably thanks to the fine folks at the Old Spokes Home! Great bunch there!

Cheers!

lyle

On 20 April 2013 18:20, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am obviously not plugged into the bike store world, but I can say I see tons of people on steel bikes with the handlebars up high riding around Burlington, VT.  It brings a smile to my face pretty much every time.  

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[jpp]

I dont think Grant is given his credit on this issue.  Many large manufactures (trek, etc...) offer nice city bikes with plenty of rack mounts.  Plus just look at all the bike at NAHBS, there is no way most of those bikes would look like they do if there was no Riv.   Plus surly, soma and salsa fill in nicely for people looking for riv style bike at a lower price point (all three derived from the book of riv in my opinion).

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I agree. Grant was among the first, and most visible proponents of real-world bikes. Arguably, some of Surly/Soma success is due to people reading what G was saying, and for whatever reason, buying a Riv-ish model from one of those brands instead of from RBW. Surly/Soma have talented and creative designers of their own, of course. Don't want to detract in any way from those companies' efforts and successes.

[PATRICK MOORE]

I think Grant was the principal moving force behind the steel/quality/comfortable road bike that is pretty common today. Perhaps he was just leading at the crest of an already existing wave, but as someone who bought an XO-1 in 1993 ('92 model) and followed Bridgestone and then Rivendell from that point, I know the so-to-speak desert that existed until the mid 2000s. 

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[clyde canter]

Similarly. Stumbled upon this at the Trek site a while back. Seems they have a new fit system.

H2 Fit

"H2 features a slightly higher head tube to put less strain on your back and neck. It's the right way to get most riders, including many of our Pro Team riders, in the right place. With no need for high-rise stems or spacer stacks, the look is nothing but pro."

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[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

I worked at a Trek dealer in 2005 before I started HC. Back then they had the Pilot series of comfort-road bikes. These were a more upright geometry with clearance for 700x28 (gasp). The trick to selling them was to de-emphasize the "comfort" part of the category. In many cyclists' minds, "comfort" = a geeky 50-lb Pee Wee Herman ballooner.

[Bruce Herbitter]

I taught bike safety and care to about 30 young girls + parents camped out on Saturday before leading them on a merit badge requirement bike ride. After the talk, one mother came over with her relatively new bike asking what she would have to buy to make it stop causing instant agony to her seat area.  One minute later with (Riv spec) higher handle bars and a correct saddle height, she was oohing and ahhing in comfort. No, I didn't mention GP's name or do a bike fit discourse, but I did tell her that where weight is and how things connect on her bike do matter.  She did wonder why no one at the bike store had told this before.... (a bigbox retailer, not an LBS).  Then I casually said, "You know, with the right saddle set up, you don't need padding..."

The ideas work for a lot of people.

[Tim McNamara]

"... The look is nothing but pro" tells you all you need to know about Trek's philosophy of bike fit.  From a company that made great steel bikes to a company that sells expensive, profitable tech to poseurs...

On Apr 22, 2013, at 11:21 AM, Christopher Wiggins <tsot...@gmail.com> wrote:

Make no mistake.  H2 is still "race" geometry.  If you play your cards right, you can get the bars level with the saddle.  Most folks are going to be stuck with (minimum) 2-3 cm of drop.

[Montclair BobbyB]

I love Burlington... Awesome bike vibe, awesome beer, awesome place.

[Brewster Fong]

On Monday, April 22, 2013 10:20:32 AM UTC-7, Fullylugged wrote:

 She did wonder why no one at the bike store had told this before.... (a bigbox retailer, not an LBS). 

You should have told her that this *bigbox retailer* is not a "bike store" and if she went to a real LBS, they would or at least should have fitted her properly! 

 

Then I casually said, "You know, with the right saddle set up, you don't need padding..."

The ideas work for a lot of people.

So true!  It is a good thing there was someone like you to help her out. Too bad, they don't have the same at that "bigbox retailer...."  Good Luck!