What frame and build set make you a safer, slower rider?

[John W]

I’ve been thinking a lot about safety, and about what it means to “underbike” in the city, in the name of keeping oneself purposely at lower-than-average speeds and maximally visible to pedestrians and cars.

Naturally, most of this is in the hands of the cyclist. The best safety is defensive cycling.

That said, as I consider a Riv purchase within the next year, I’m centering my decision of the frame and build kit around what would make for an enjoyable cycling experience in the city while also reinforcing the thought of, “Hey: slow down, be seen, be slow. Ride your bike, but don’t be a cyclist.”

Yes, this is an indulgence. But if anyone who overthought this as much as I’m doing, I’d welcome suggestions or thoughts of what worked for you. I’m ruling out single speeds due to cranky knees. But gearing and handlebar choices are in play. So, too are frames. I’m thinking either a Sam or Atlantis might fit the bill.

I know I could strap a cinderblock to my bike. That sure would slow me down. But this is all about creating a fun bike that’s purpose built for this task.

[Ana Candela]

Cheviut!! And Clem L, too. For city riding, I believe step-throughs and mixtes are the bees knees :)

-Ana, riding her purpleriv mixte since 2016 :)

[WETH]

John,
I would say it’s more handlebar dependent than frame, as most Riv frames ride well with swept back bars. I find handlebars that sweep back allow for a more relaxed upright riding position, while also allowing for a more aggressive riding style when gripped closer to the stem. Think albatross, bosco, Billie bars et al. I find my Cheviot with swept back bars allows me to ride slowly and steadily in congested areas and then to ride more aggressively when conditions allow.
Photos here: https://flickr.com/photos/86975051@N08/sets/72157665232090983
I think any frame and bar combo that allows more upright riding will fullfill your goal. You might have to experiment a bit with bar choice, but that’s part of the fun!
All the best,
Erl

[WETH]

Ps: fatter tires help too. You don’t have to worry about the smaller potholes and other road debris as much. 38s or larger.

[Justin, Oakland]

1) I believe your premise to be faulty. In my experience safety for cyclists in the city comes from good infrastructure, then driver awareness then cyclist behavior.

2) Any Riv where your hands are above the saddle will give you the relaxed feeling you seek. I ride a Saluki with MAP bars and can ride both relaxed and aggressive. The same bike with drop bars set fairly high gave me a similar feeling. I feel as if the Sam or the AHH are the perfect gateway bikes. I personally cannot get along with the angle that Albatross and Billie bars demand my wrists to be at. So I would either wait for the Wavvvvvvvie Gravy bar or buy the Billie/Albatross build kit and then put a bar with a less parallel to the top tube angle allowing you to reuse stem, shifters, etc.

-J

[Deacon Patrick]

John,

You equate slow with safe, but is that what you mean to do? If by “slow,” you mean intentional, then the bike matters not at all. Cultivate an attitude of intentional contentment when riding and join traffic to be seen as traffic and ride any bike you want. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[John W]

Good points. I definitely think it’s intentional. But sometimes the tool puts you in the... right intention?

When I play guitar, I have an instrument with light gauge strings set close to the fretboard on a relatively short scale neck. It inspires me to improvise lines and play with large note intervals. Another instrument has higher action and thicker gauge strings. I comp chords on it and like to play fingerstyle. Horses for courses I think can also apply to city riding.

As for drivers and city infrastructure changing to fit my needs— well, now that is a faulty premise if I ever heard one.

[Joe Bernard]

I think an upright "see over things" riding position and good brakes (all Rivs offer both) are paramount for city riding. I don't agree that being slower is safer; as an ebiker I've discovered I feel safer in traffic when I can take over the lane on a 25mph side street instead of threading between parked and passing cars.

[d2mini]

Age makes me a slower rider. lol :D

Agree with others that it's probably more handlebar related. Upright positions will naturally be safer and slower.

For the frame, choose on the style of riding.

[Lester Lammers]

 

 I’m thinking either a Sam or Atlantis might fit the bill. 

I believe you are on the right track. A Sam would be a bit more nimble and you can get the bars up. That, IMHO, is #1 for city riding. I was at my LBS and a local engineer crafted a periscope like gizmo that mounted on drop bars with a slammed stem that's supposed to be a boon in traffic. Not for me.

Your best bet would be to call Riv and discuss what you want with them.

[KenP]

Hi, 

     Does anyone have any evidence that color makes a difference in safety?  Brighter colors=safer colors?  There was a study of motorcycle helmets, and the white ones have been shown to be more visible.  Lady pulled out in front of me a while back, she stopped and apologized said she did not see me.  I was wearing dark clothes; it was early, I had lights, That bike is green.  Does any one feel safer in silver or orange or blue?

KenP

[Joe Bernard]

I don't have any stats, but I would think the bike frame is too small for color to make much difference, it's the rider you want to brighten up. A lot of riders here in Marin use orange safety vests over regular gear, which I see a mile away in my car. A bright helmet should help, too, although I can't bring myself to plop a giant orange or white lid on my large noggin ;-)

[Surlyprof]

I believe that Chartreuse is the most visible color in a refective medium (as opposed to projected). That is why emergency vehicles have shifting over from red and other “visible” colors. However, otange is probably way up there for visibility being so close to the yellows on the color spectrum.

John
(Who rides defensively on an orange Hillborne and a lime green Brompton with a bright lime green helmet)

[Deacon Patrick]

I have only my own anecdotal evidence, specific for where I ride. What I’ve learned for visibility and safety when riding rural roads and small town traffic (which may or may not transfer to city riding):

— Street cloths rather than cycling specific looking cloths means drivers see me and respect me more. This includes colors, so I’ve shifted to my outer layer having red. Easily seen, not neon or “sporty.” I wear knickers, which look like pants and “normal” to most, if a little odd, rather than cycling specific.
— Be part of traffic to be seen. I get seen and given a wide berth (the whole lane) when I ride in the right wheel track of the right (usually only) lane. This does not apply at highway speeds, only local and backroad speeds. If the bike lane is 3 feet or more, I’ll use it, otherwise I’m in the traffic lane, right wheel.
— I smile and wave to every driver, regardless of direction. Interestingly, over time, more people smile and wave back and over time more people are looking for me, sometimes even waving first. This can get tedius with a lot of traffic, so I tend to wave to groups when that happens in summer.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Joe Bernard]

The waving thing is very underrated. I do a lot of eye-and-hand communicating with drivers to signal things like "gimme a minute, I gotta jet past this row of parked cars before moving right", then give a little wave of "thanks" afterward. I can't verify it, but I would swear the next 5-10 cars behind me give more room after seeing the interaction with the first one. Like, "Oh, he's a real person on the road out here with us, and actually understands we want to get through this safely, too." I think car drivers appreciate being politely educated on the situation the cyclist is navigating.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

I agree.  I like to wave my thanks and give thumbs up.  I think the more the drivers see you as a person instead of an object on the road (a bike), the more respect and patience you will receive.

Toshi

On Sun, Jun 3, 2018 at 11:44 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

The waving thing is very underrated. I do a lot of eye-and-hand communicating with drivers to signal things like "gimme a minute, I gotta jet past this row of parked cars before moving right", then give a little wave of "thanks" afterward. I can't verify it, but I would swear the next 5-10 cars behind me give more room after seeing the interaction with the first one. Like, "Oh, he's a real person on the road out here with us, and actually understands we want to get through this safely, too." I think car drivers appreciate being politely educated on the situation the cyclist is navigating.

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[tc]

John, hmm, slower - really?  You can always go slow on any bike -- but you can't always accelerate quickly, nor make quick turns (which you will need to do it traffic eventually) when on a bike set up in a very upright "Mary Poppins" mode meant just toodle around on.  

Also depends on how experienced you are riding with traffic.

Of course either Sam or Atlantis could work with an Albatross bar.  I would say not the Bosco (too upright, and again, comes straight back at you).  Both of those are too narrow for me, though, and the grips come just about straight back.  This isn't the best hand/arm position for maneuvering on the road I've found for me.  I prefer a wider bar with more flare, like the 615mm-wide Ahearn+Map, which I love on my Atlantis.  It's upright enough, while also making the bike more maneuverable, and just slightly more aggressive, which allows a more athletic position w/out moving your hands when you need to accelerate quickly.  I'm no speed demon by any stretch, but I when I want, or more importantly need, to accelerate, I want it to happen *now*.  You might also look into Riv's new 660mm-wide Wavie bar when they come out.  Very similar to the Ahearne+Map, but maybe better in that it's slightly wider, and, it has a wider center section on either side of the stem for another possible more aggressive hand position.  That center section may not be important to you, and would almost certainly not be that useful when riding in traffic.

Tom

On Saturday, June 2, 2018 at 11:30:55 AM UTC-4, John W wrote:

[Eric Karnes]

Handlebar choice is also going to depend on the type of city street you ride on. Center city Philly (where I ride) has tight gridded streets, lots of traffic, and limited bike lanes. I found a MAP bar to be much too wide, an Albatross to be a bit too wide, and a Velo Orange Porteur to be just perfect. All three give you a nice upright riding position for good visibility and easy reach to the brakes, but the 48mm width of the Porteur allows you to maneuver at low speeds through cars without knocking off side mirrors and such. 

My current commuter is a SimpleOne, but if I were going geared, I would probably lean towards a Sam. Shod it with 40mm-ish tires, get the stem up, and put a porteur (or your choice of upright bar) on there. 

Eric

[John Woo]

Eric, you bring up a good point. 

I don’t weave around cars per se but the sharrows are narrow where I am. 

What about the Nitto B302 All Rounder bars? 49cm wide, 65mm rise? Are they a popular choice?

John 

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[Eric Karnes]

I've used them. Porteur bars with inverse levers are my first choice (the angles just feel good to me), but the B302s are nice.

Eric

[John Casteen]

I would second what Erl said. Haven't ridden a Cheviot, but the Appaloosa with albatross bars and 38+ tires (mine are 42 mm Shikoros) is a great setup for anything around town. Stable, relatively upright, comfortable, and load-capable. It's not inherently slow, but I feel much safer on it than I do on other bikes that are inherently quick.

[Ron Mc]

Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . If you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday morning down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill.  The more weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.  

[phil k]

I tend to agree, but in a great section of DC with a lot of bike lanes yesterday, a cyclist almost got hit by a car running a red light.

John, I think you'll be happy with any Riv for your purposes. Now it's just about what ride characteristics you like in a bike.

[John Woo]

I like Justin’s suggestion of the AHH. Or maybe the Atlantis, MIT, as I would fit in the 650b range for both. 

Thanks everyone. I’ve been mulling over a frame for almost a year now, and it’s funny how different life circumstances along the way have changed it all. Good thing I’m not wealthy... I’d easily have three frames by now. 

As I’ve worn through clothing I’ve gradually replaced them with hi-vis. And I started to use day running lights. I’m just trying to eek everything out of “it all helps.”

John 

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[Ron Mc]

separate from my bike lighting, I have a Light & Motion Imjun on my helmet

I turn it on at wary intersections to look at drivers - from their reaction to the light, I know what they're going to do

[Ron Mc]

oops - Light & Motion Imjin

[Madam Xylene]

I notice when I’m in more street type clothes (compass knickers)usually with bright knee socks on my big upright cheviut cars stop or yield to me more. For darkness I have lots of reflective tape on fenders and frame plus lights and wear reflective vest.
Eileen

[Deacon Patrick]

“Any riding position that adds weight to the rear wheel slows you down. . If you want to demonstrate this (we start a 7-mile sprint every Sunday morning down a 2-mile hill), free-coast with your friends down a hill. The more weight you get on the front wheel, the more efficiently you'll roll.”

Ron, you sure wind resistance doesn’t explain most or all of the the effeciency roll test? Have you tried shifting your weight back AND staying in a deep tuck?

With abandon,
Patrick, who appreciates the air brake effect on fixed gear downhills, and also the rear weighted tuck into headwind descents on loose stuff.

[Steven Seelig]

I live in DC, and my city bike is a Ram, as pictured.  Sure its a bit lighter and perhaps racier than the other bikes noted, but it is the bike best suited for all situations for me.  What makes it a City bike is perhaps the thing that does not make it a country bike - the grips and the brakes are in the same place at the end of the bars.  There is no "other" racier hand position to take, because the trade-off is that my brake handle and shifter are always nearby.  There is never a question of needing the shift positions or worry about my current position in the event of an emergency, or which there are about one every 30 seconds in the City.  

The pizza rack in front also denotes city bike because I can actually grab a pizza on my way home, or tote whatever I might need from the local market.  I also get to go pretty fast when I want to or can.  Keeping up with traffic is pretty important to me when possible, so having a bike that can get to 20 mph (okay with a downhill) is important to me.

Your mileage may vary.

[lambbo]

CHEVIUT

2 or 3 Bells

Boscos

38's with fenders

Constantly running front and back running lights via Dynamo hub

This is my NYC rig and it couldn't be safer or more fun, IMO.

Step-Thru adding to safety shouldn't be overlooked...every time I have to slam the brakes and put my feet on the ground I'm thankful. 

[Ron Mc]

totally 100% sure on this one Deac.  

[Ron Mc]

Deac, I'll add that you get the effect even when you have a tailwind that's out gunning you, and you're making yourself a smaller sail by getting more weight up front.  

[Ron Mc]

the torque of pedaling transfers weight to the rear (think about rear squat when you accelerate a car).  Anything you can do to get weight up front makes you roll more efficiently.  When you're pedaling hard, you get a core muscle advantage, also, and I beat John in last Sunday's sprint in the last quarter-mile getting way forward on the drops (maybe only the 4th time I've beaten him).  

But in the simplest free-roll comparison when nobody has enough speed for aerodynamics to matter, you see an instant effect getting weight up front.  

[Deacon Patrick]

Thanks, Ron. There’s a reason I only race trees. Grin.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Ron Mc]

I had a strong week, finishing out 120 mi with the available time, and been working on my cooling since the oppressive humidity arrived about a month ago.  

It's kind of an unwritten rule when we start out and coast down the long grade, nobody pedals until it goes flat, and if they do, they become an instant target.  Normal group is 30 to 40 riders.  We naturally break into groups by pace, and the lead group breaks out going into downtown for the final sprint across Chavez to the Alamodome.  

It's a fun outing among friends, and we go for coffee afterwards.  Aside from the friends, a big part of what makes this so fun is downtown streets are virtually deserted on Sunday mornings at 7am, and when you get into the downtown blocks, 20 mph clicks all the lights same as cars.  .  

[Garth]

Safety and well being ... like Health ... isn't "made" , it just IS what IS is...... it's as natural as natural can be.  It cannot even be expressed in any words .  How do you express "Infinity" in words  ?    Hah !   It doesn't matter of course .... the end is the same as the beginning, the first the same as the last, here the same as there .... everywhere and no-where ....  All is Each and Each is All.       Awesomethin' wonderful !   

[Mark in Beacon]

Visibility is certainly a good idea. I like to wear one of those construction worker vests when I commute; they are generally better made and cheaper than the cycling specific visibility vests. 
But I don't necessarily subscribe to the "lower-than-average-speeds" approach. For most close quarters city riding, I generally prefer getting in the traffic stream whenever possible--it's much safer than hugging parked cars and letting trucks whiz by you, hoping nobody opens a door. Defensive sure, but riding timidly in traffic has its own pitfalls. Assertive but friendly. Predictable but expecting other to be unpredictable. Scanning ahead and occasionally behind. Not worrying too much about safety but generally obeying traffic rules. Enjoying your senses.

I favor a step-through or mixte frame with upright bars, wider tires, flat pedals, some combo of rack, basket, panniers, bell, lights, fenders, rear view mirror. So in the Riv line-up a Cheviot or a Clem L. Otherwise a mixte or women's frame with the aforementioned components and accessories.

[Mark in Beacon]

Oops! Forgot my favorite safety accessory. I've purchased a few of these from Rivendell over the years:

[John Woo]

Love your pannier. Looks like you could fit at least a week of groceries in there. 

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[Kainalu V.]

Ron and Patrick- When I was a kid my dad (a physicist who worked as an engineer for M.I.T.'s Lincoln Laboratory for 50 years) told me to watch closely how my pinewood derby car acted during the big race. He explained before hand that my car, with it's weight pushed as far back as we could get it, would be behind the pack at the bottom of the ramp but would certainly win on the flat. It did every time and I walked away with the victory that day. So yes, weight forward or centered wins on the downhill, but if you want to have an easy fast coast through the flats you want that weight out back. A pannier system that relocated the load depending on level would be nice, but way off topic...
As far as the topic is concerned, what Mark said about mixtes and keeping with the flow of traffic is spot on.
-Kai
BKNY