My Joe Appaloosa

[Bill Lindsay]

I picked up my Joe Appaloosa Thursday night.  I had to pack that night for a bike race, and the race consumed my Friday and Saturday for the most part.  I went ahead and did my first pass at making it mine.  I installed Dutch paddle grips, trimmed all the cables and housing, and wrapped the forward part of the Choco Bullmoose bars with yellow Newbaums, shellacked with amber. 

I've also installed an R-14 rack and a Saddlesack Medium.  As pictured the Choco Moose bars are slammed.  My SH is 75.5cm.  That's a 55cm Appaloosa.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

[WETH]

A beautiful build! Looking forward to a few ride reports.

[sameness]

LOOKER

Love seeing other folks' bikes in my size, SH and all. That girl is arm candy.

How are those pedals, and any idea what they are? Never used spikes before, need something for flip flop season.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CAUSA

[Bill Lindsay]

I do like the pedals a lot.  It's got a great sealed bearing.  They install with an 8mm allen from the inside (no pedal wrench flats).  The black body is plastic, with medals spikes.  There's a model number K926 with a wavy logo preceding it.  I think that might make them Wellgo brand, but I can't find any online info for that model number.  They might be strictly OEM pedals.  

[Bruce Smitham]

Like!

[James Warren]

Bill,

Great. Congrats!

How are you liking the way the saddlebag attaches to the rear of the saddle? I've been curious about those saddles that are not Brooks, but saddlebag loops of some kind are a requirement for me.

-James

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- 700x33

[James Warren]

And kudos for using the planter-box pedal trick for bike leaning even though you had a kickstand available!

On Mar 6, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

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[Bill Lindsay]

The rear loop of the saddle is narrower than the spacing of the saddlebag loops, but there are no sharp edges, so I'm not disqualifying the saddle on these grounds. 

[James Warren]

Good enough for me. Thanks!

[dougP]

For a guy who only got into it today, you sure work fast!  That came out beautiful.  On the pedal question, Wellgo supplies some to REI that are metal (probably re-cycled aluminum) with a rubber insert on the shoe surfaces.  They retail for less than $20 & are ideal for flip-flop or sandals in general.  Recently I picked up a couple pair of Ergon pedals at REI's online outlet.  These are plastic, sorta foot shaped & have a 3M non-skid surface.  When they came out they were IIRC $80 which seem a bit much for plastic.  On the outlet they were under $30.  I've ridden these off-road & like them better than the Wellgos, which are perfectly serviceable too. 

dougP

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:06:12 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Dennis Hogan]

Sweet Ride !!

Dennis in PDX

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:06:12 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Shoji Takahashi]

Looks great, Bill. I really like the mustard color. 

After looking at long chain-stay bikes for awhile, the Appaloosa looks remarkably normal (with some beautiful details).

I wonder if Riv could've spec'd the Chocomoose with less rise. Slammed stem + expanded frame, and the handlebar grips are quite high-- seems like they're good for high and higher... 

Happy riding,

shoji

[Bill Lindsay]

You are right Shoji.  Even with a slammed stem this bike is still quite upright.  Since this bike could become a real loaded touring bike for me, I am not going to rule out experimenting with drop bars on this bike.  My 55cm Appaloosa has a shorter effective top tube than my 58cm Atlantis.  So, I could easily swap cockpits between the two.  

Speaking of swapping stuff between my Appaloosa and my Atlantis, I did some additional work on the front rack situation.  I had a Nitto Mini front and a Platrack in my rack inventory.  Since the Appaloosa won't take a Nitto Mini front, I decided to try moving a Nitto Big Front rack from my Atlantis to the 'Loosa.  

It actually is level.  I would have ridden it into work today, but it's pouring rain, and I haven't gotten fenders on yet.  

[Ron Mc]

trick ride, Bill.  

[jeffrey kane]

What are you using for a basket there, Bill?

[Bill Lindsay]

That basket with major swagger is a big Wald from Riv, modified by me.  I think I have a flickr album on the modification....

Hack-a-Basket

Scroll to the bottom.  The final 8 photos show my process.  I was inspired by Jenny at Riv, who did something similar.  She kept hers level, and just made it shallower.  I got my lean on.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[jeffrey kane]

That is swanky ...

[Surlyprof]

Great set up.  I only got to test ride the Joe at Riv a little bit in the rain but I loved the smooth feel and fat tires.  How does the ride compare to your Hillborne?  I had thought about trading my 56 Sam for the 55 Joe just to get the ability to up the tire size.  Wasn't sure it would be a change in the right direction for me.  I'd be interested in your comparison impressions.

Enjoy your new ride.

John

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:06:12 PM UTC-8, Bill Lindsay wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

Comparing the Appaloosa to the Hillborne in my case is not quite a fair comparison because my Hillborne is set up as kind of a go-fast.  Anyway, I still don't have fenders on the Appaloosa but weather cooperated today.  I rode from the El Cerrito Hills down into downtown Berkeley for a business meeting.  Luckily a shop with free bike parking was nearby, so I didn't have to lock it up.  It's a short steep climp followed by a long twisty descent down Arlington Ave into Berkeley.  The Appaloosa rode "like a Rivendell".  That is to say predictable, solid, neutral.  Does what you want, doesn't do what you don't want.  

One surprise to some may be that I couldn't tell the chainstays were long.  It had me asking myself the opposite to what habitual Grant-haters will ask.  A habitual knee-jerk Grant-hater will ask with a sneer "why is it necessary to make the chainstays that long?  What problem is Grant solving?".  I found myself asking the opposite.  Why not make them that long?  What am I losing by having longer chainstays?  I can't feel any difference, so they might as well be long, I'm thinking.  Longer absolutely gives me more pannier room heel clearance.  Longer has to be more stable in some way.  Longer looks weird, so if I'm an inflexible traditionalist I'll be offended by the weirdness (I'm not).  Longer makes it harder to fit in a bike locker.  Longer makes it heavier, I guess.  

I like the Choco-moose bars a lot, but I've got them slammed.  The cheap V-brakes feel like cheap V-brakes in my hand, but they stop well.  The stock ugly saddle is really comfy.  The stock Kenda Kwick Bitumen tires are fine, at least as nice as the Schwalbe Marathon Extremes I have on my Atlantis.  I might be tempted to try some Soma Supple Vitesse 700x42s on there sometime, but I'm in no hurry to do that.  The Silver rear hub is kind of loudish.  I might try to quiet that up some.  

Maybe next week I'll take it on my 40 mile commute from home to the office.  So far, so good.  Next year (2017) I get a 6-week paid sabbatical, and I'm trying to reserve two weeks of that for a tour.  The Appaloosa is a candidate to be the bike I take.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Patrick Moore]

Are there really such detractors? Who, and where? Who are the "inflexible traditionalists" who sneer and hate, and why would they do this? If anyone sneers, why wouldn't it be the carbon fiber fellows? Is this just incipient paranoia?

FWIW, my 45 cm-stayed customs are the best handling bikes I've ridden, and I think Chauncey Matthews just added a cm to the stays of the '03, with the new, super long dropouts. 

I hear that Jobst would tell builders not to cut the chainstays, but to build with the full length. I think Jobst was a traditionalist, no? But a sneerer?

[dougP]

Bill:

You have an Atlantis and the Appaloosa is a candidate for a 2 week tour?  That's either high praise or heresy, I'm not sure which.  In any case, the Appaloosa sounds like one hell of a bike.  Longer chainstays, whodda thunk? 

dougP

[Bill Lindsay]

"Are there really such detractors? Who, and where? Who are the "inflexible traditionalists" who sneer and hate, and why would they do this? If anyone sneers, why wouldn't it be the carbon fiber fellows? Is this just incipient paranoia?"

If you are joking:  Good one!

If you are not joking:  I'm laughing even harder.  I know you have a different profile name on iBob, but maybe it's a different person.  

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm currently thinking about removing the fenders from my Atlantis and installing Bruce Gordon Rock and Roads and using it more as a trail/mud bike for a while.  

[Patrick Moore]

Different profile? What is it? I'd like to know.

Are you saying that I am a Grant hater? If so, come out and say it. 

I didn't think at first you were speaking of me, but this seems to say that you are. Then come out and say it openly and bravely, and take the consequences. This pisses me off hugely!

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

"Are there really such detractors? Who, and where? Who are the "inflexible traditionalists" who sneer and hate, and why would they do this? If anyone sneers, why wouldn't it be the carbon fiber fellows? Is this just incipient paranoia?"

If you are joking:  Good one!

If you are not joking:  I'm laughing even harder.  I know you have a different profile name on iBob, but maybe it's a different person.  

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 4:16:36 PM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:

Are there really such detractors? Who, and where? Who are the "inflexible traditionalists" who sneer and hate, and why would they do this? If anyone sneers, why wouldn't it be the carbon fiber fellows? Is this just incipient paranoia?

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[Patrick Moore]

I want this resolved.

[Bill Lindsay]

You a Grant Hater?  Gawd no.  Your profile appearance on iBob is bertin73 or something like that.  

My reference to iBob is that it is extremely fashionable to scoff at Grant and at Riv as a beach cruiser company.  Many on iBob think that Grant reached his apex with the 1993 RB1 and it's been downhill from there.  Some of the more vocal Grant haters on iBob do come over to this board to remind us how lousy Rivendells are "for our own good".  You, bertin73 are not a Grant hater in my book

[Patrick Moore]

You are a fool. There, I've slapped you across the face with my gauntlet and insulted you. It's up to you to challenge me to a duel; weapon of your choice -- epithets, irony, cruel satire, cold sneering, hot cursing -- you choose. Hell, I'll arm wrestle you.

For the rest, I believe far less foolish: I like Grant a great deal and always have, since i signed up on the BOB group in early 1994, and ordered my first custom in late 1994.

Not only do I respect the man and his integrity about his products, I like many of those products -- I would think of buying an Apaloosa, had I not more theoretically desirable bikes ahead of it on my mental list. But I sure as shit won't toe some sort of craven respectable line when I want to criticize something that Rivendell does or makes.

Ball in your court. Rest of you: sorry, but perhaps the altercation will be entertaining. I can assure you I'm not timid!

Over and out.

Patrick Moore, thinking good thoughts of Grant and bad thoughts of fools in ABQ, NM.

[Bill Lindsay]

Wow.  Um, OK.  I'll just turn the other cheek.  

My Appaloosa is a nice bike.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito Ca

[Patrick Moore]

Tell you what: I'll offer an olive branch. You retract "Grant hater" and I'll retract "fool." We'll each say what we want about list topics, and forbear criticizing others' opinions. Deal?

Patrick "gnothi seauton" Moore

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[Joe Bernard]

Ok kids, I think something got lost in translation here. Back to your positions..start over!

[Bill Lindsay]

I cannot retract calling Patrick Moore a Grant hater for the simple reason that I never called Patrick Moore a Grant hater. I will repeat: Patrick Moore is not a Grant hater. I will add that bertin753 is not a Grant hater. This is not a retraction because I never called anyone a Grant hater. I said that there are Grant haters on iBob and anybody who reads iBob knows that is true. I won't name them or call them out. They know who they are and they aren't ashamed of it, nor should they be.

[Patrick Moore]

Kieth: that was well and modestly stated. Thank you.

I shure as shit thought BL was dissing me, but -- you won't believe it, but it's true! -- I have been wrong before. No, really!

So: If I misunderstood Bill, and made much ado about nothing, I wholeheartedly and fulsomely apologize to Bill and List -- sorry, sorry, sorry, O Gawd I'm sorry!

(Meanwhile Grant is in the office with door closed, gritting his teeth, wincing mightily, and saying to himself, "Shit, shit, shit, why do these people say these things?")

So we all stand around embarrassed, afraid to look at each other, mussing the dirt with our toe.

Here's something to relieve the tension (came across it in the Guardian or somesuch). Bike content: women can't drive cars.

Enjoy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZMbTFNp4wI

Patrick Moore, who enjoys now and then a little disruption of the quo dullness.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 6:57 PM, iamkeith <keith...@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm kind of clumsy with my words sometimes, and frequently put my foot in my mouth or insult people in on-line forums - without meaning to.   You typically don't suffer from the same malady, Patrick, so I hope you'll take this in the kindest possible way, as it is intended:  

You're reading something into Bill's comments that isn't there.   Go for a ride,  have a beer, take a nap or whatever..... and then come back and read it again.  I think you'll see, there is no disagreement, or need for public altercation.

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 5:52:57 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 Rest of you: sorry, but perhaps the altercation will be entertaining. I can assure you I'm not timid!

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[Bill Lindsay]

Apology accepted. Unnecessary 18th century duel cancelled.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Bill. We'll drink a glass together one day.

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:23 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Apology accepted.  Unnecessary 18th century duel cancelled.

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[Philip Williamson]

Super beautiful build.
I haven't been paying as close attention to the new Riv bikes as perhaps I should. That looks great; cockpit, color, basket. The whole brisket.

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[cyclotourist]

Bill, do you have any singletrack miles on it for comparison? I wonder about long stays being a negative, as in my limited experience, I prefer shorter stays on dirt for a) climbing b) manuals c) switchbacks. It seems like going to 430mm from 450mm helps me in these me in these three areas, and that going back out to 520mm would hurt. 

But maybe it's all in my head. 

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Cheers,
David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

[Philip Williamson]

Whew! I was literally on the edge of my seat there.
Okay, figuratively, but it was pretty tense going!

"Do you bite your thumb at me, sir?"

Philip
www.biketinker.com

[dougP]

Wow!  I wander off for dinner & come back to a possible duel.  It was entertaining there for a while.  Thankfully we've drifted back to bike geeking.

dougP

[dougP]

My Atlantis is getting a similar changeover.  Since the fenders have been pretty much useless here on SoCal (oh El Nino, where is thy soaking?), they're coming off & while I'm at it a pair of 45 mm Marathon Mondials (at a svelte 760 grams ea) get installed for RSR.  May just leave 'em on if the ride isn't awful. 

dougP

[Bill Lindsay]

I have no immediate plans to take the Appaloosa on single track. I have ten bikes including a proper mountain bike. I don't think of the Appaloosa as a single track mountain bike. I'm thinking of it as a camping bike, a leisurely road bike and maybe a multi week loaded touring bike, and I think that's plenty.

[cyclotourist]

Horses for courses!

On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:17 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have no immediate plans to take the Appaloosa on single track.  I have ten bikes including a proper mountain bike. I don't think of the Appaloosa as a single track mountain bike.  I'm thinking of it as a camping bike, a leisurely road bike and maybe a multi week loaded touring bike, and I think that's plenty.

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[Joe Bernard]

It's soooo pretty. I love that color!

[Bill Lindsay]

On Tuesday, March 8, 2016 at 8:53:37 PM UTC-8, cyclot...@gmail.com wrote:

Horses for courses!

Haha.  LITERALLY!  :-)

Anyway...I went by HQ again today, since I had overlooked a good fender solution.  I bought myself a set of B65 fenders, plus an extra stay-kit to do some additional fender work on other bikes, and a King Cage.  While I was there I saw several finished Appaloosas, waiting to be picked up.  Several people should be having some fun.   

[IanA]

Use plastic tankards, lads. Like they have in Scotland. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/scotland/10083843/Scottish-outrage-at-nanny-state-plan-to-ban-pint-glass-in-Highlands-pubs.html

[Bill Lindsay]

I spent a bit of time installing a set of B65 SKS fenders on my Joe Appaloosa last night. I will post Images when I get to my computer. Normally one would mount the front fender stays to the eyelet under the fork tips. That eyelet is occupied by my Nitto Big Front rack. That rack has a threaded hole on that attachment plate so I mounted my front fender stays to the rack. This slightly lower mount point necessitated longer stays. I had purchased an extra stay kit on the same trip to Riv, so I had what I needed on hand.

The rear fender took a decent amount of work, as many rear fenders do. The chain stay and seat stay bridges are both about 1" from the tire (24-26mm) which is a terrific place to start. The leading edge of the rear fender needed some dremel work to fit between the chainstays and to clear the chain when it's on the small chainring. After doing that I test fit it to mark the spot to drill the fender to bolt directly to the seatstay bridge. I mounted my rear fender stays to one of the M6 eyelets. I had to hunt a bit to find a pair of matching short M6 bolts. At any rate it turned out well. It might have been frustrating if it was my first fender install.

[Bill Lindsay]

Pics prove my morning coffee run has a nice view, and proves that I can dremel plastic

View from the Cemetery overlooking The El Cerrito hill.  GG Bridge in the background

Detail of the drive side rear B65 fender.  On the non-drive side I had to cutaway just the section for the chainstay.  On the driveside that cutout extends much higher to provide chain clearance for when I'm in the small chainring.  

[Deacon Patrick]

Coming together beautifully! Fantastic detail with the granny gear clearance. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[WETH]

Bill, it is looking great! Well done.

[Jeremy Till]

Looking good Bill! Rivs always look better with fenders, at least to me.  

[Tim Gavin]

On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 12:06 PM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

Detail of the drive side rear B65 fender.  On the non-drive side I had to cutaway just the section for the chainstay.  On the driveside that cutout extends much higher to provide chain clearance for when I'm in the small chainring. 

So, the SKS B65 fenders lack the cutouts that the SKS P65 fenders have?  Interesting.

It seems that cutout was often misunderstood by Riv customers, according to Grant:

For some reason we get an inordinate number of returns on the P65s--the 26" big fatties. One thing that happens often enough to mention it here is: They are really wide, and SKS cuts away a bit of the part that fits between the chainstays--so it'll fit. But it makes the lower part asymmetrical, and people think "DEFECT!" and it's not defective, it's just a necessary cut that makes it work. There's no way around it--if the fender is that wide, it needs to be cut away to fit between the stays. But the P55 fenders---one notch skinnier but still fat---are fine for tires up to 2 wide. We shouldn't even carry the 26" x P65s, but now and then somebody with big-big-a** tires wants them, and so we do. Until the next return..

[David Banzer]

Yup. I learned that this past weekend when I shifted to my big cog for the first time ever on my Clem. Never needed to until I happened upon some muddy trails.
I just picked up a set of P65s for Clementine, so I'll try to just trace the cutout from the P65 onto my B65. SKS fender material is pretty easy to manipulate. I didn't have a drill when I need to make a hole for the brake bridge. Used a small kitchen knife and twirled the point back and forth. Worked just fine.
David
Chicago

[iamkeith]

Not to hijack Bill's thread, but I thought this was interesting.  Same B65 fenders on my Clem. 

First of all, I hadn't noticed or considered it until reading this discussion, but sure enough - the chain did in fact rub on the fender in the lowest two gears.   What's interesting is that I was able to fix it by adding just a small notch.   The rest of the fender could be retained because it fits easily  between the longer stays,  at its full width.   And look how much more spacer the Clem requires, compared to the Appaloosa!  I strongly suspect that its just a matter of time before long chainstays, like those on the Appalossa, look completely normal to all of us.   After staring at the Clem all winter, I already think traditional short chainstays look kind of funny.  And that's without even having ridden the Clem yet...

On Thursday, March 10, 2016 at 11:06:31 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Pics prove my morning coffee run has a nice view, and proves that I can dremel plastic

Detail of the drive side rear B65 fender.  On the non-drive side I had to cutaway just the section for the chainstay.  On the driveside that cutout extends much higher to provide chain clearance for when I'm in the small chainring.  

[iamkeith]

oops - forgot to add the photo:

[Esteban]

Bill - this is terrific, as usual with your bikes. Hope to see it and you someday soon.

Esteban

San Diego, Calif.

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Bill,
Thats a very nice Joe Appaloosa!!!
Makes me tempted to buy one for myself :-)
Give us ride report please if you get the chance.
Thanks,
Ed Fausto

On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

I do like the pedals a lot.  It's got a great sealed bearing.  They install with an 8mm allen from the inside (no pedal wrench flats).  The black body is plastic, with medals spikes.  There's a model number K926 with a wavy logo preceding it.  I think that might make them Wellgo brand, but I can't find any online info for that model number.  They might be strictly OEM pedals.  

On Sunday, March 6, 2016 at 5:33:32 PM UTC-8, sameness wrote:

LOOKER

Love seeing other folks' bikes in my size, SH and all. That girl is arm candy.

How are those pedals, and any idea what they are? Never used spikes before, need something for flip flop season.

Jeff Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CAUSA