Gary Taubes NYT, reviews new pro lo carb study

[LF]

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/01/opinion/sunday/what-really-makes-us-fat.html?_r=1&src=rechp

[Solomander]

OTOH..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/10/health/nutrition/q-and-a-are-high-protein-low-carb-diets-effective.html?smid=FB-nytimes&WT.mc_id=HL-E-FB-SM-LIN-IDM-071212-NYT-NA&WT.mc_ev=click

Jules Hirsch is a smart guy.

[Tony Lockhart]

This was an interesting article and I imagine that it'll have the Taubes fans up in arms. This guy speaks very authoritatively when it comes to efficient ways of losing weight. I kind of find this frustrating because the article alludes to his credibility given that he's been studying obesity for 60 years. With that said, I find it interesting that Hirsch mediated a study where he manipulated calorie compositions in his subjects. It would seem that this directly contradicts what Taubes has highlighted in Good Calories, Bad Calories.

I would like to know more about Hirsch's claim that low carb/high fat diets have something to do with water weight loss. In the Taubes books, I remember him very clearly describing how correctly dieting will regulate/correct adipose deposit levels, but I vaguely remember anything about water weight loss. Anybody else not buying what Hirsch has to say??

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Nothing Hirsch says discredits the paper cited. The paper claims that
the resting energy expenditure of the subjects with low carb diets was
higher than the high carb diet expenditure.

Therefore, the low carb diet contingent burns more energy at rest than
the high carb diet contingent. I looked at the data and it certainly
trended that way. They claim that the data are statistically
significant.

One thing of note, however, is that the low carb diet contingent had
higher levels of cortisol and I think I remember reading C-reactive
protein. These are markers of inflammation and if they are elevated
tend to increase the risk of cardiovascular disease among other
things.

I try to eat as many veggies as possible and be moderate in my intake
of carbs and meat. In any event, a diet with lots of veggies is good
for preventing cancer. Luckily I don't need to be too worried about
weight.

Toshi

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit
> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Hx0iYyeWnsgJ.
>
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Bill Gibson]

It is possible that individuals vary in their response to diet and exercise. Why not? Calorie theory, set-point theory, and fat-storage theory provide frameworks for productive research. Taubes' insistence on more scientific research separates him from diet gurus that challenge conventional thinking as a way to differentiate a brand. He's opening a space for research that was closed, because modern theory had ruled it out for a generation or two. Professional scientists have to find a topic that is within, but on the edge of the dominant paradigm, in order to receive support for their work. The edge of normal science is always evolving, and Taubes' journalism is part of that process. 

Water loss as the source of short term weight loss is a real possibility, however. Especially if you ride a lot in Arizona.

I'm a very bad vegetarian, more of a pesco-ovo-lacto vegetarium (vegequarium?) for a lot of reasons: health, ethics, economics, politics, aesthetics. Paleolithic living makes sense, until I think about the average life span of the ancients. Or, was that mainly due to personal violence? My quest for the true way continues.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 4:18 PM, Tony Lockhart <alockh...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Hx0iYyeWnsgJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

--
Bill Gibson
Tempe, Arizona, USA

[Tim McNamara]

On Jul 12, 2012, at 6:18 PM, Tony Lockhart <alockh...@gmail.com> wrote:

This was an interesting article and I imagine that it'll have the Taubes fans up in arms. This guy speaks very authoritatively when it comes to efficient ways of losing weight. I kind of find this frustrating because the article alludes to his credibility given that he's been studying obesity for 60 years. With that said, I find it interesting that Hirsch mediated a study where he manipulated calorie compositions in his subjects. It would seem that this directly contradicts what Taubes has highlighted in Good Calories, Bad Calories.

I would like to know more about Hirsch's claim that low carb/high fat diets have something to do with water weight loss. In the Taubes books, I remember him very clearly describing how correctly dieting will regulate/correct adipose deposit levels, but I vaguely remember anything about water weight loss. Anybody else not buying what Hirsch has to say??

When people are selling diet books, I don't believe 99% of it.  Usually it is some person good at speaking authoritatively, which translates to book sales and disciples to send money, and a lot of opinion underpinned by truthy sounding "science."  Trashing the competition is a integral part of this and the disciples get very agitated and self righteous.

The best advice about diet I have read is "Eat food.  Not too much.  Mostly plants."

[PATRICK MOORE]

That makes sense to me, too. My mother, a Filipina (and 89) started
watching her diet about 20 years ago after a mild heart attack and
mild, type 2 diabetes: lean protein, mostly chicken breast, a lot of
vegetables and as much white rice as her incipient diabetes allows.
She quickly lost weight and has kept it off over the years. Of course,
many old people are thin, but then again, many old people are fat.

Having lived all over the world and seen all sorts of diets and read
about so many more, I find it hard to believe that any diet that has
kept people alive for millennia can be intrinsically wrong. The Inuit
stayed slender on protein and fat, mammal and fish, the Zuni on corn,
beans and squash, the Chinese on rice and noodles, the Italians on
pasta, the Indians on chapattis and nan. Eat food and not too much --
at least this part seems pretty obvious.

On Thu, Jul 12, 2012 at 5:48 PM, Tim McNamara <tim...@bitstream.net> wrote:

> The best advice about diet I have read is "Eat food. Not too much. Mostly
> plants."
>

> --
--
"Push back against the age as hard as it pushes against you."

Flannery O'Connor

-------------------------
Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA
For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW
http://resumespecialties.com/index.html
-------------------------

[Mike]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 4:48:08 PM UTC-7, Tim McNamara wrote:

The best advice about diet I have read is "Eat food.  Not too much.  Mostly plants."

Yes! So simple and so much harder than one would think. 

--mike 

[rob markwardt]

...and so we need 2054 books to tell us how...found on the
internet...it must be true.

http://yourlocalsecurity.com/in-good-measure/2504-diet-books

[Aaron Thomas]

For a different take on the question of cortisol and C-reactive protein, check out this interview with Dr. Ron Rosedale:

http://www.meandmydiabetes.com/2012/06/30/ron-rosedale-comments-on-new-harvard-study

Aaron

> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.

> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to

> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.

[Robert Zeidler]

Water weight is easy to check if you have one of those scales that does so. For one of the Atkins-style diets-and diet is a bit misleading-one has to consume water etc., at regular intervals during the day. Expect to pee a lot. But that is the primary way fat, and a lot of other bad stuff, leaves the body. 

Sent from my iPad

--

You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Hx0iYyeWnsgJ.

To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.

[Patrick in VT]

On Thursday, July 12, 2012 7:48:08 PM UTC-4, Tim McNamara wrote:

The best advice about diet I have read is "Eat food.  Not too much.  Mostly plants."

The only thing I'd add to that is learn to cook.  Cooking is essential to taking ownership of what we choose to eat - everyday, I get 5-6 chances to make the right food choices.  When I roll my own, I get it right more often than not.  Cooking also inevitably leads to more flavor and variety, which makes the food i eat very satisfying.  It's an essential human skill and it needs to part of the discussion with respect to the health/obesity epidemic.

[Seth Vidal]

On Fri, Jul 13, 2012 at 6:23 AM, Robert Zeidler
<zeidler...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Water weight is easy to check if you have one of those scales that does so.
> For one of the Atkins-style diets-and diet is a bit misleading-one has to
> consume water etc., at regular intervals during the day. Expect to pee a
> lot. But that is the primary way fat, and a lot of other bad stuff, leaves
> the body.
>

I'm not on an atkins-style diet but I do drink a lot of water on the
advice of a back doctor who said it would help keep my vertebrae from
rubbing as much.

He said while the water advantages on my spine would be, relatively,
small, the biggest advantage of drinking a lot of water is that it
will force me to get up and down out of my chair in order to go to the
bathroom.

He's definitely right about that.

-sv

[PATRICK MOORE]

Amen to this. I am amazed at how well and quickly even I -- being
impatient -- can cook. I am very grateful that my daughter has grown
up with home-made meals, not pre-packaged schlock.

The best cookbook for non-experts is Bittman's How To Cook Everything.
The title is just about accurate: you can find out what to do with the
catfish nuggets that have been sitting in the freezer for months
(lemon and caper sauce, or a mustard sauce), pastas when your
ingredients are spaghetti noodles, an old head of garlic and some
cheese, what to do with cabbage, and how to make a gimlet.

Patrick Moore, who must still try that fennel pasta ....

> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To view this discussion on the web visit

> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/3FrdLfpVE8gJ.

> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.

[Toshi Takeuchi]

Thanks Aaron,

Great find and thought-provoking interview.

Toshi

[Mojo]

I am writing this on my phone, so forgive the oddities please.

My experience: I bought Gary Taubes' book from Rivendell last summer. I came to the book after my cholesterol rose over the last few years & my doctor wanted me to start statins. I am 6ft & weighed 192 lbs.

After reading much beyond the book, a cycling buddy Eric, his business friend John, and I all decided to try it. Giving up sugar in all its forms was difficult. Eggs & almonds kept me on track. Very quickly we started losing weight. I modified my diet by eating some fruit and beans, so I was not low low carb. Still I was much lower than previously, no sugar, cereals, bread, rice, pasta. Lots more veges, nuts, & some more meat. By September I weighed 184 & stayed there through the winter. My cholesterol, ldl remained unchanged, hdl rose, triglycerides dropped dramatically.

This spring I increased my cycling a lot to prepare for a tour. My weight dropped again to 175, or about 8% loss from last summer. Buddies Eric & John have had more dramatic loss, at 15 to 20%.

Other effects we have noticed, aerobic effort is different on fat vs carbs, less top end but no bonk. Muscle cramps are more common but are managed with massage & increased salt. Hunger is much more manageable, less urgent. Skipping a meal is not a crisis. My summer alergies have dissapeared. My dentist noticed much less buildup on my teeth.

Overall we ate thrilled with the results.
Sugar is toxic!

[Corwin]

Hirsch's claim is that the calories were measured as calories burned per unit of lean body mass. This may or may not be documented in the paper. Given that it's not a direct quote - I doubt it. Having read Good Calories Bad Calories, I suspect the calories were measured as calories burned per unit of body mass (Taubes' books are impeccably researched). Hirsch appears to be claiming that people on a high protein diet burn more calories by virtue of an increase in fluid processing in the kidneys. Based on my reading of nutrition and medical literature, this is true. Increased protein in the diet usually leads to increased work for the kidneys.

This ignores the point that calorie expenditures were higher in the low carb diets. This includes the diet that was between the Atkins diet and the high carb/low fat diet. I think the trend is the most interesting part of this study. Regarding the part about selling diet books - keep in mind that Good Calories Bad Calories is an in-depth study of medicine, nutrition and history as it relates to weight gain/loss and disease. Taubes only mentions a recommended diet as an afterthought.

I think you could make much more of a case for "Why We Get Fat, And What To Do About It" being a diet book. Personally, I have spent years riding my bikes, running, and riding a Stairmaster. I always wondered how I could finish an incredibly intense workout lasting an hour or more, come home - eat a bowl of pasta and weigh more - until I read Good Calories Bad Calories.

Corwin