Fender Frustration

[Pondero]

A. Homer Hilsen, 650b
VO Zepplin 52mm
Hetre

Tire rubs on fork crown daruma.

I recognize that I'm pushing the limits of tire width with fender
installation, but thought I'd seen someone with this combination in a
photo somewhere.

Has this problem already been solved somewhere?

Any suggestions appreciated.

[René Sterental]

I'm facing the exact same challenge installing 50mm fenders on my Betty with Hetres. Haven't solved it yet but will be filing down the daruma bolt to shorten it enough so it doesn't rub.

The culprit is the silver front break, in my case. Will report once I'm done, but it might be a few days.

I also tried using the L-adapter that comes for the rear fender since my Betty has the vertical screwed adapter so the rear fender can be attached directly to the seat stays bridge, but it wouldn't allow the sender to come low and close to the tire enough to follow the tire curvature and prevent the front of the fender from being pressed against the tire.

Another issue with both the Hilsen and the Betty is that due to the front brake rear bolt, the daruma cannot be centered on under the fork. For safety reasons the brake bolt shouldn't be shortened and thus an extra piece of metal or a very large washer is required.

Did you get a good fender line and is the daruma your only problem? Or you just saw the daruma bolt touching the tire and haven't gone any further?

Let me know if you get other ideas to solve it.

René

[Pondero]

Thanks, Rene.

Fender line was not perfect, but satisfactory for me. The space at
the fork was a little less than at the fender ends. I agree the brake
was a challenge. I dented fender top at fork AND at break to give a
little more clearance. The shortened daruma might work. I've
considered smaller tires, but can't get used to the idea of that yet.

[Kelly Sleeper]

Mine rubbed too. I just cut it down.. twice even. :) Well after buying a new one.

[grant]

The AHH has 65mm of brake reach and a fork crown that maximizes that
65mm for fender clearance. (It does so by putting the hole as low as
possible in the fork crown, to make sure there's no metal where there
could be air). The Silver brake was designed, also, with fenders in
mind (wide mouth high up, clears SKS 45mm fenders).

here are always limitations, but those two components in the equation
are pretty well thought-out and fender friendly. I think some of the
problems may be due to trying to work even beyond the clearance
provided---a bike putter-together equivalent of getting greedy,
stretching even capacious limits beyond what's possible.

There's nothing wrong, of course, with the fenders, either. But we all
the time put 40mm tires on bikes with silvers and SKS fenders. I know,
plastic, but plastic isn't Satan, and when you combine a plastic
(malleable) fender of a good design with the Homer's fork and silver
brake, things generally work out well. A fender that's 52mm
wide...probably best used with cantilevers or V's or something.

Anyway...I understand the frustration. The nature of fatting and
fendering a bike always leads to a rub here and there, because you
naturally want the most of everything.
G

[René Sterental]

Very well put, Grant.

 

There would be no issues if I had kept the Marathon tires I got with the Betty, which I believe are 35s... but those red Hetres look so good on the Betty... :-)

 

And of course, even though she desn't have time to ride it, my oldest daughter wants the hammered Honjo fenders on it. Like you said... pushing the tolerances... :-)

 

Yesterday I rode the Betty with the 200 Bullmoose bars and I have to say it also felt wonderful. I cannot quite figure out why the 200s feel so stretched out on the Hunqapillar but feel so great on the Betty. Their geometry differences don't seem to be so great, yet they feel very different. I'll keep those for a while and ride it like this, but if my daughter ever rides it, she'll need the 150s back as she already felt a bit stretched on them. Since it's obvious I love how the Betty handles with both, it'll be fine.

 

I'm sad to see the Bullmoose bars on the sale... I hope it doesn't mean they'll never be made again. Luckily I'm well stocked in those. It was a last minute discovery, but such a delightful one!

 

What will I do in 2012 if all my bikes now fit perfectly? Well, I guess I'll just have to ride them more... :-D

 

René

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[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

My wife's Betty has plastic SKS fenders over Hetres and they barely fit. Not much room for hardware in the gap. 

The clearance is as tight as it looks in this picture... https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/qDU3tkD7sEMWuZqiKMs5ltMTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink

--Smitty

 

[Philip Williamson]

I have fender greed. I don't believe I have ever set up a fender
without trying to eke every mm of tire width out of the setup.
Actually, not true. The front of my Utopia has inches of clearance,
and I had to make a 3" drop bracket to get the fender down near the
tire. The back, though, I had to file off some metal to fit the
tire...

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[Philip Williamson]

Fork-crown darumas are stupid. I recommend riveting a bracket onto the
fender that attaches to the rear brake bolt.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[Steve Palincsar]

On Mon, 2012-01-02 at 14:16 -0800, Philip Williamson wrote:
> Fork-crown darumas are stupid. I recommend riveting a bracket onto the
> fender that attaches to the rear brake bolt.

Of course, not a very practical solution if you're using cantilevers or
brazed-on centerpulls...

[Joe Bernard]

Y'all trying to cram huge tires under no-clearance fenders be crazy, man. That's a stuck-rock-or-stick disaster waiting to happen.

 

Joe Bernard

Vallejo, CA.

[rob markwardt]

If I had a rivet gun I might agree, but daruma's aren't that bad.

Installing metal fenders does take a little longer and will require a
bit fiddling and patience, however, if I can do it anybody can. Once
you get them on they are WAY better than the plastics models (IMHO).
I've installed maybe four or five sets using both the bracket and the
daruma. I think the daruma does make it a little sturdier (word?) but
both work fine.

It does get a little easier each time you do it....can be a pain in
the rear though. I'm currently trying to silence a new set of VO
Zepplins on my Bleriot. I'm pretty close but I think that the single
attachment on the rear is causing a little rattle. I'm pretty anal
when it comes to bike noises so I'm working towards "silence". I've
never even come close to that with the plastic models, but when you
get the metal ones on solidly you don't even notice they are there.

Rob "It's raining pretty hard and I'm going for a ride right
now....with metal fenders" Markwardt



On Jan 2, 2:16 pm, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> > considered smaller tires, but can't get used to the idea of that yet.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Pondero]

Thanks, Grant, for the reply. Just wanted to point out that I
understand the design, and that I know I'm cheating. I love my AHH
unconditionally. If I can make this hack work, fine. If not, no
knock on the bike, I'll adjust.

Thanks, also for all the other suggestions. I'm gonna ponder this a
little before making a decision.

[LBleriot]

If it's the daruma bolt that's causing the rub, then take out the Dremel and grind that sucker down. Interestingly, the only time I've had a problem with a tire rubbing the daruma was with a Hetre. Good luck.

[rcnute]

If the Hetres won't work I think the Lierres are just about equal in
ride quality.

Ryan

[Peter Morgano]

Had this issue as well on my saluki with the same setup. I went with the l,bracket and Sheldons fender nut. I you have to bend the top of the l bracket to curve around the headset and then push it up as far as it can go. I am running diacompe centerpulls so I have a bit More space on the sides but the daruma is just too long for this setup. If you need pics let me know.

[Mark Fredrickson]

I had a similar problem. After much gnashing of teeth, I decided to
cut my rear fender and splice it using home made brackets:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/devinf/6620876305/in/photostream

This photo shows the second set of brackets. The first rear bracket
attempted to run under the brake, but did not provide anymore
clearance than the fender itself. I admit this is an extreme solution,
but it gives a lot of flexibility with getting a good fender line and
good clearance. In fact, I'd like to see fenders come in 4 piece sets
with more attractive brackets.

Like others, I've cut and ground down mounting screws. I mounted the
fenders, removed the wheels, and cut/ground the screws flush with the
bolts (a Dremel works great for these jobs). I'll have a hell of time
reattaching the fenders should I ever need to remove them, but as long
as they stay on, I've got great clearance.

-M

[Peter Morgano]

Stick with it, took me 5 nights of fiddling but I got the hetres, 52 zeppelins and 58cm Saluki to all play nice together. Use the l bracket and Sheldons fender nut. I secure that then when you bend the fenders to secure the at the fork you will get the clearance you need. Trust me.

[René Sterental]

Mark,

No offense intended at all, but I cannot see myself doing that on my bikes. I'd rather go to a smaller sized tire if needed. While my sense of esthetics on my bikes is very high, I cannot say the same for my sense of telling apart different tires. I thought my Betty rode wonderfully with the original basic Marathon tires that were thinner, and while I love how it rides on the Hetres, I'm not sure I can tell them apart. Maybe I could if I rode them side by side, but I think it would be a tough call for me. The little irregularities on my fender lines, on the other hand, can drive me crazy if I let them. I don't usually, but they can...

For now, the main reason I want to keep the Hetres on is for their looks! Perhaps over time I'll learn to distinguish the subtleties of how different tires ride, but for now I marvel at how they feel just at different air pressures... if I really pay attention.

Still, you found a good way to solve your problem and I'm glad you like it.

Smitty, what is the name of that green color on your wife's Betty? I love it!!!

René

 

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[Smitty-A-Go-Go]

"Sam Hill Green" 

When we went into Riv HQ for test rides the wife wanted an Yves Gomes because she thought she wanted a black bike. I wouldn't let her pick black and Vince graciously accepted the challenge to show us frames until she picked a "real" color. He bent over backwards to drag out frame after frame from all over the shop so we could look at colors. A dozen or so frames into it the wife was still set on black. Vince had an Ah-Ha! moment and brought out a frame painted 'Sam Hill Green'. As soon as she saw it in the sun, she knew that that was the color she wanted. 

It's a marvelously beautiful color. It's way too nuanced to really be captured in a photo. Depending on the light it can appear anywhere from a rich olive to almost silver. It's got sparkly flecks that make the paint look 3D. And the red tires + silver accessories set it off. It's not nearly as showy with black/gum tires. I was tempted to get my AHH in the same color but the wife was clear that we were not going to have matchy-match bikes. 

--Smitty 

[Philip Williamson]

Nitto M12 for the win! Waitasecond... what's a daruma supposed to hang
from on a non-sidepull bike? A cork?

It didn't occur to me to use a daruma with disc brakes:
http://www.biketinker.com/2011/projects/im-thankful-for-my-fenders/
No rivet gun, just a drill, a hammer, and a couple pokey-things to
flatten the rivets over.

Philip

Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com

[René Sterental]

Wow!

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[Mark Fredrickson]

Hi René,

> No offense intended at all, but I cannot see myself doing that on my bikes.

None taken. Different strokes for different folks. I was having fun
fabricating small parts from old junk in the garage, so there was a
perverse pleasure in this for me. For someone with more metal working
skills and better tools, I imagine nicer brackets could be generated
(and I think I saw reference to commercial offerings at some point).

> I'd rather go to a smaller sized tire if needed.

I can honestly say this idea did not occur to me until after I had cut
the fender. Even so, I'm happy with the result.

From pictures I've seen, I can certainly appreciate your fine taste in
bicycles. :-)

Best wishes,
- Mark

[Chris]

My wife's Betty also has rubbing on the front/right tip of the fender when the bike steers to the right.  The bike has 50mm Honjo installed with 35mm Soma Xpress tires.  I kinda wish the Mark's rack had a boss, like the Mini front, which could be used to secure the front tip of the fender.  The older version of Mark's rack came with a longer diving board plate, whose front tip can be used as a stay for the fender.  But the longer version of the spring board is no longer being sold.   

Or maybe a washer needs to be loosened.  I need to play around with it a bit more...

[René Sterental]

Hi Mark,

 

Even if I wouldn't do it, I still think it is a very ingenious solution I never thought of either. The great thing about this group is how many other ideas you get exposed to that in turn, generate new ideas in your head.

 

Happy riding!!!

 

René

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[René Sterental]

I have to agree with you. The very first Rivendell bike I saw in person at a Caltrain station was a green Sam H. and I fell in love with its color. On my first ever visit to RBW, when I was test riding them and deliberating between the Homer and the Sam, their different colors were a strong factor in my internal debate.

 

In the end I chose the Homer because the test model I rode felt better, but that green color has always been at the back of my mind waiting for an excuse to repaint one of my bikes.

 

The time may come sooner than anticipated, so we'll see...

 

Congratulate your wife on her beautiful Betty.

 

René

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[Minh]

Hi Chris,

I had this problem too, i had a Nitto Mini Front and when i switched
to a Nitto Campee Front i lost that same boss up front. I came up
with my own DIY solution, i used an extra daruma bolt and a ziptie to
secure it to the cross section of the rack, it doesn't look as clean
but is rock solid.

[René Sterental]

I'm not sure what you are referring to. Both my Mark's Racks (on the AHH and the Betty) have 2 bolts on the flat section that holds the rack in the middle and goes into the brake hole in the fork crown. I use one of these to stabilize the front of the fender. Has anything changed recently?

René

[Esteban]

One thing the Hetre has done is create a lot of noises and tight
clearances for the the 650B denizens whose Kogswells, Ebisus, and
Rivendells were spec'd for around 37mm - which was all that was
available about 2007.

I agree with Ryan - after riding the Lierres, if you want supple
casing and a fast, light ride, just get that tire and save yourself
the headache. Hetres are great tires. But they require a lot of
frame-design fidgeting with fenders that not even most custom builders
can pull off cleanly. Or you get the gaping yaw of the Rawland.

Here's the Protovelo with comfortable clearances with Lierres:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/25671211@N02/6592022665/in/photostream

Hetres were fun, but a royal pain and best abandoned.

[Pondero]

Thanks, Esteban. I like your suggestion, and am leaning hard in that
direction. If I didn't spend so much time on gravel roads, it would
be a slam dunk. I love Hetres on gravel.

But I'm pretty sure I do not love gravel wedged within inadequate
fender clearance.

[Minh]

Rene,

I just walked over to my Mark's Rack (I have all 3 still) and i never
even thought of using those slots in the longboard. do you have a
picture as it looks a lot higher to my eye then a nitto mini front but
maybe that is just an optical illusion.

[Chris]

Hey René,

I actually did use one of the bolt slots to stabilize the fender (by switching out the original bolt to a longer one that goes through the fender, adding a spacer between the fender and the diving board, and securing the fender with nut/washer), but it's still rubbing when the wheel is turned all the way to the right.  Is it similar to the way you secure your fender?

Comparing to the boss on the Mini Front, the bolt is at least an inch further back (towards the rear of the bike).  I can't help but wonder if the rubbing would stop should the fender be secured closer to the front tip.  Does anyone have a spare long front diving board that used to come with Mark's rack?

On the hand, I also wonder about my installation.  The relative space between the tire and the fender should stay constant when the fork turns, right?  There must be something that got caught and causes a slight rotation on the fender line.  Perhaps something underneath the fork crown daruma?  Should I loosen the nut under the fork crown daruma a bit?  Any suggestions?

I'll try to post some pictures later (I moved the bikes to the bike room after our ride on the 1st as the weather turned cold).

Thanks!

Chris  

[René Sterental]

Sure. I'll send you a photo later tonight when I'm home, but you will need some metal spacers or cork to fill the gap, as well as a screw that is long enough. I use the most forward of both.

René

[Minh]

Chris,

I think you're going down the right track, as your turning the wheel
the fender is likely pivoting somewhere. it could be that the stays
for the fender are not aligned, it could be you're not getting a good
seat at the daruma between the daruma rubber washer and the fender, so
that it's creeping into the head-tube. I would not loosen the daruma
as i think that would cause it to wobble/creep more.

The herse guys have this nifty widget
http://www.renehersestore.com/servlet/the-520/Fender-Wedge-for-underside/Detail
meant to create a more positive seal between fender and daruma. i was
looking at this until i rigged up my DIY solution as i was having the
same sort of wobble/creep at the front of my fender.

[René Sterental]

Chris,

 

I have the same issue with my AHH, which currently has 35mm Marathon Supremes and 45mm Honjo fenders. My tire rubs the fender when I pedal uphill standing up (swaying the bike from side to side). My assessment of this problem is that it is caused by wheel flex, not by the fender installation. I can actually see the front wheel flex as I sway the bike.

 

My AHH currently has Mavic Open Pro 32 spoked rims inherited from my pre-Rivendell days. I have to check out if the spoke tension needs to be adjusted and if the same issue remains if I use a Dyad 36 rim front wheel with the same tires. I'll have to do that soon, since I now have a couple of spare front wheels after getting SON 28 front wheels for the Atlantis and the Hunqapillar.

 

If my assumption is correct, then your wheel would be flexing too and it might not be perfectly dished either.

 

René

[René Sterental]

This is also a good suggestion. However, the Rene Herse adapter/widget won't work well with forks and sidepull brakes due to the rear brake bolt interference that doesn't allow the daruma to be centered.

 

René

[René Sterental]

Forgot to add that this rubbing when climbing standing doesn't happen on my Atlantis with its Berthoud fenders. Again, while it is a possibility that the Honjo fender on the AHH is twisting somehow (it was my first metal fender installation ever and I may have gotten better with all the practice I've had), I still believe wheel flex under pressure while turning or leaning the bike has to be factored as well.

 

More ideas are welcome!

 

René

[Chris]

Hi Rene,

Here's a photo set of my Mark's rack setup.  Comparing to my Sam, the fender fit on the Betty is much tighter (given that the Betty has caliper brake and also wider tires).  I switched one of the bolts and used it to secure the fender.  The setup seems to work well, except when I make really sharp turn to the right.  

I'll ask the LBS people about the fender when I take the bike in for service.  Will report back if there's any new discovery.  Thanks!

(I posted the link a few days ago, but it seemed to be lost...)

Chris

[René Sterental]

Thanks for the photos. I've still not added the fenders to my Betty, but will need to do so shortly. Let me know what your LBS say about the reason for the rub when you turn the wheel to the right. Does that only happen when you're riding or also when the bike is on the stand or on the floor but you're not riding?

 

René

[Chris]

Hey René,

I actually don't really notice it when I'm riding.  My wife hasn't experienced tire rubbing when she rides, either.  

I only noticed the rubbing a few weeks ago when I was walking the bike through the hallway.  The tire was slightly wet so the rubbing noise was very noticeable.  It only rubs when the bike is steered sharply to the right.  Perhaps in in real life riding, the bike is never turned that sharply...

Chris

[Rex Kerr]

On Thu, Jan 5, 2012 at 10:44 AM, René Sterental <orth...@gmail.com> wrote:

Forgot to add that this rubbing when climbing standing doesn't happen on my Atlantis with its Berthoud fenders. Again, while it is a possibility that the Honjo fender on the AHH is twisting somehow (it was my first metal fender installation ever and I may have gotten better with all the practice I've had), I still believe wheel flex under pressure while turning or leaning the bike has to be factored as well.

 

More ideas are welcome!

I also had tire/fender interference with my AHH while climbing standing using 33.3 JBBlue tires and VO hammered fenders mounted with a daruma bolt, which all went away when I installed the front rack and bolted the fender to the underside of it.  I believe that it was entirely fender sway.

[Zack]

As far as I am concerned, "frustration" is synonymous with "installation" when it comes to fenders.  ahahah.  

[René Sterental]

My fender has always been bolted to my front rack. In the case of my AHH, it may not be perfectly centered. I believe my 32 Open Pro wheel flexes when I stand on the pedals.

René

[Brian Hanson]

Rene - I ran Pasela 35s on the AHH with Honjo 45s for a while.  I think it's right at the limit of clearance, and I have since gone back to Jack Brown or smaller (Gran Bois Cypres) which are perfect for these fenders.  I recall having the same issue with the 35s having some rub while I was standing in the climbs.  Just a slight rub usually while I was at full crank extension/effort.  I wrote it off as wheel or fork flex that was just enough to contact the tire, but since I had such tight clearance, I didn't view it as a defect.  Just me running too big of tires for these particular fenders.

I've had no such rubbing with the Cypress and Jack Browns, FWIW.  

Brian

Seattle

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 12:49 PM, Zack <zac...@gmail.com> wrote:

As far as I am concerned, "frustration" is synonymous with "installation" when it comes to fenders.  ahahah.  

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[René Sterental]

Chris and Brian,

Your feedback makes a lot of sense. I think Grant said it well when he spoke of tire width greed. Something else to play with...

René