Market Prices for Riv Frames

[islaysteve]

In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList, I
thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just
because it's kind of interesting. Someone on the other thread implied
that it's not reasonable to compare the asking price of a used frame
to the price of a new frame, esp. if it's a different model. I
disagree. Long ago I had a job processing claims. The principles
apply, I argue. To use my own example, you can't buy a new Bleriot.
If you want a new Riv frame that's close to a Bleriot in geometry and
function, you buy a Sam. Back when they were sold, Bleriots cost $750
(such a deal!). Today new Sams cost $1100 (?) or $1500, and that is a
whole other discussion in itself. In my size (small), they cost
$1500. So when I paid more than the original cost for my pristine
Bleriot frame/fork, was I foolish? I don't think so. Riv frames in
my size on the used market are not available all that often. So the
other part of this equation is depreciation: the word that insurance
companies love and claimants hate. I think you have to agree that
most things, Riv frames included, depreciate. If you'd rather have a
new frame out of the box from Walnut Creek than a used frame from Joe
on eBay, that's depreciation. If the used frame has some paint
chipping around the dropouts, that's.....you get the picture. We can
argue about how much to depreciate a Riv frame, or anything else. I
wouldn't depreciate it down to 25% after say 10 years, like some
claims payers might. So to wrap this up, my point is that it's
reasonable to look at the price of a comparable new frame (bike),
decide what kind of depreciation to apply to the used bike in
question, and go from there. And of course the buyers emotions and
wants play into this a good bit. I would have rather had an orange
Sam with Hillborne graphics than the blue Bleriot. But it just wasn't
worth nearly double the price to me. Cheers, Steve

[cm]

This is a great topic! I hate when people say it, but anything is
worth what someone is willing to pay for it. When you have something
that was mass-produced all of those individual transactions help form
a market value. In some cases things can actually appreciate in value
if the cost of a replacement has gone up and demand is high. I think
your Bleriot is a great example. I know that I wouldn't sell a new
Bleriot for $750 today if I had one in some magical basement. Rolex
watches are a good example of used items appreciating in value.

In the Ram case above, I dont think that it is so much that the price
is too high compared to the new comparable models, but too high
according to the value the market has established. If research vintage
cars, you often find that people put way more into restoring a car
than they could ever hope to get back selling it-- putting $15,000
into a VW Beetle that they would be lucky to get $5,000. No matter how
nice, it is still a Beetle and people will only pay so much. I think
that is what the Ram owner is facing-- yes it is a very very nice
bike, but it is still a Ram.

Cheers!
cm

[Brett Lindenbach]

I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910.  That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid.  I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset.

[William]

It seems that only the Bleriot is worth more than original retail in
the resale market. Single top tube Hillbornes seem to be worth about
$700-$800 on the resale market. Atlantis and Hilsens and Salukis seem
to go for $1200-$1400. Bombadils do not hold their value well at all,
from what I've seen. Maybe $1000-$1200. I'd be interested to see
what a Wilbury or Glorius would go for, since they seem to come up
VERY rarely. Rambouillets seem to go in the $800-$1000 range.
Quickbeams can pull very close to their retail price.

On Jun 14, 11:10 am, Brett Lindenbach <brett.lindenb...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[stevep33]

Curious what price a Legolas would bring... I don't recall ever seeing
one for sale.

[Jim M.]

Keven at RBW sold his last year. It had a chainstay replaced and was
repainted by Joe Bell. IIRC, it sold for about 75% of retail. There
were only about 80 Leg's made and I think I've only seen one other for
sale. Mine's a keeper for sure.

jim m
wc ca

[Rene Sterental]

Since we're not arguing how much an insurance claim should pay... and I know I don't understand all the nuances about how the "replacement value" clause is applied, I'd argue that the ultimate price any bike/frame would command would be driven by market demand, and not by how much it went for when it was manufactured/sold as new.

 

In the case of Rivendell bikes, my position would be that if I absolutely want that bike/frame for whatever reason, I'd be willing to pay more for them. If I just consider them older/used, then I'd expect to pay less for them than a brand new equivalent I'd buy from Rivendell.

 

An analogy, although perhaps not the best one, would be that as soon as production was stopped on a given model, just like a photographer destroying the negative of a given picture (Ansel Adams did this), the price for existing ones could actually go up as they are now potential collector's items.

 

Should an original parallel top tube Bombadil command a higher, equal or lower price than a new diagonal tube Bombadil? It all depends on what you're after.

 

René

 

[newenglandbike]

On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Bombadils do not hold their value well at all,
> from what I've seen.  Maybe $1000-$1200.  I'd be interested to see

Have many Bombadils come up for sale? I think I've only seen one,
and it was a very small size. I don't think many people have them,
and those that do seem to love them too much to sell.

On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve <alkire...@verizon.net> wrote:
> In view of the other thread about the nice Rambo for sale on CList,
I
> thought I'd start a general discussion of used Riv prices. Just
> because it's kind of interesting.

It seems perfectly logical to me to compare a frame that Riv doesn't
sell anymore to one that they do sell, that is made to the same
standards. Especially if that no-longer-made frame is new. You
can't go back in time and order a Rambouillet from Rivendell at the
original price, just as you can't buy a new AHH for $1500, which is
what they retailed for when they came out. Inflation happens.
Bank bailouts, war... what you gonna do.

Also, in my experience, nice stuff appreciates in value over time,
because nice stuff is hard to come by- 'nice' having a completely
different meaning than 'expensive', though it often is expensive.

-Matt

[William]

> Have many Bombadils come up for sale?

Not a whole lot but I've seen a few. The small one you are thinking
of maybe tilts my perception of value. I have a parallel tube 56cm
Bomba, bought from Riv for $2000, and I do love it and will keep it.
If I was ever forced financially to do a big liquidation, and decided
to sell the Bomba, I'd anticipate taking a major hit. Maybe I'm wrong
about that. Maybe the diago-bomba for $2500 will make mine really
desireable!

[Leslie]

On Jun 14, 7:08 am, islaysteve <alkire...@verizon.net> wrote:

I suppose I should reply here, as it might very well be me that was
implying that it's not quite appropriate to do a direct price
comparison between a discontinued used model and a new current model.

And, I should go ahead and say, anything I say isn't meant to offend,
is simply my perspective, YMMV.....

I will agree, if you want to have insurance replace a bike with a very
comparable brand/model, then sure, you can insure it for a declared
amount to make sure that if stolen, you could go and replace it (ie,
replace a Rambouillet with a Roadeo). That would be a $1600 frame,
being replaced with a $2000 frame.

And, I love my Rambouillet, it's an awesome bike. I really would like
to think that, it'd be reasonable to expect that an insurance company
would replace it with a brand new Roadeo if anything ever happened to
it. And if I had an Atlantis that was a year or two old, maybe it'd
not be too unreasonable to argue with insurance that they could just
buy a new one to replace it.

But, realistically, as soon as you drive a car off a lot, it's a used
car. A few years later, once a company has replaced it with a new
model, if I went to sell it, I wouldn't expect to set its price
directly compared to a new car, I have to look at the price for which
used ones of its same year are selling, regardless of the new model
being the one that's most like it.

I had a Subaru, a month old, 2nd payment not-yet-made on it, and it
was rear-ended. Shouldn't have been totaled, but, as it was a new
model that had just came out, the parts weren't available to repair
it, they were all going into making new ones, so insurance decided to
total it out instead. And I couldn't even get them to do a
replacement on it with another. It had less miles on it than some new
cars that have been test-driven a lot, and they still wouldn't.

There is a lot of truth in that old statement, tho', that it's worth
what someone will pay for it. I deal with old Land Rovers (have a '72
and a '60), and all the time, see people pricing them ridiculously
high, thinking they're overly collectable. (Orvis had a nice
'restoration' done that was recently priced at $80k). And, often,
someone with one to sell gets lucky: someone with disposable income
sees one, catches a fancy, and can drop a lot of money on one. But
the long and short of it is, it's an old Rover, even if nicely done,
even if like new, shouldn't really ever go for more than $20k, and
really, $10k is high for one in even pretty good daily driver
condition. But, if someone's willing to $30k for one, who am I to
say that it 'shouldn't' sell for that?

Bikes aren't cars. And, I understand that, perhaps, someone is willing
to pay a premium because it's got a Joe Bell paintjob, because it's a
great paint. But for me, if I was buying a used bike, the fact it
has a JB paint job or not wouldn't influence me to want to offer more;
IMO, that's something that was worth more to the original buyer who
had it painted, but not the average buyer. Sure, maybe it happens to
be a JB paintjob in the 'exact' custom color that you would repaint
the frame in anyway, then you're actually saving money by not having
to repaint it. But, maybe, someone who knows what a JB paintjob is, is
probably a different kind of bicyclist, eh?

Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly
optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than
what it originally cost. It'd be nice to think that I am wrong on
that, maybe my Ram is worth more than what I think, but, I don't see
it as an investment, it's simply a great ride.

As I said, not trying to step on toes, I'm not meaning to offend, but,
that's my perspective.... FWIW.....

[rcnute]

Here's some data from my buying and selling Rivs if anyone's
interested: (1) new Bleriot f/f at bought at retail, think I sold it
for $500; (2) used but virtually new Saluki f/f: $1,200; (3) used but
great condition Rambouillet f/f: $800; (4) used Quickbeam: I think I
sold the bike for $900 or so; (5) used but great condition Bleriot: I
think I bought and sold the f/f for $600 or so.

There's also a lot of community within the Riv marketplace so I think
buyers and sellers generally try to treat one another fairly.

Ryan

[islaysteve]

Rene, I agree with all you said. You said that value COULD go up when
production stopped. Maybe, but it depends on the desirability of the
frame in the first place. And also perhaps in the number produced.
The Rivendell name certainly provides a hedge against depreciation,
but I wouldn't go so far as to say it confers automatic collector's
status. IMHO. Steve

[islaysteve]

If William's statement is true, and I imagine that it is, it's mainly
because Bleriots had such a low price to begin with AND that the
pricing on its replacement has taken such a jump. It's too bad that
RBW couldn't have maintained the Bleriot and its pricing for longer.
(We've all read GPs reasons for pulling it, I'm sure.)

On Jun 14, 2:17 pm, William <tapebu...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > almost outbid.  I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Brewster Fong]

On Jun 14, 4:08 am, islaysteve <alkire...@verizon.net> wrote:

This is interesting. On SFCL, there were like 5 Riv bikes/framesets
for sale a couple of weeks ago. The prices varied from about $1300 for
a blierot bike to over $3k for custom Riv.

Today, there is only one listed a custom Riv complete bike (Curt
built) for $1350:

http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bik/2436837304.html

Seems like a great deal, if you fit it! Good Luck!

[Rene Sterental]

I know... Wouldn't it be nice if they were automatic collector's
items? I really meant that if there was a high demand at a given point
in time, the price would go up. Reality doesn't quite seem to support
that... yet!

Rene

Sent from my iPhone 4

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[Brett Lindenbach]

Interesting. I've noticed Rivs going for considerably less here than on CL or eBay, prolly because this group has a better sense of what they are really worth. Prices also seem to vary considerably based on location. There are a lot of Rivs in the bay area for obvious reasons, so there is a decent supply of (and demand for) used frame sets and complete bikes. Actually throughout the west coast, with a strong pocket in the NW as well. At least with my limited experience trying to source on CL, west coast sellers only deal locally, won't even reply to an earnest inquiry from out of state. Where I live on the east coast Riv bikes are considerably more exotic, and the used bike market reflects that.

[Steve Palincsar]

On Tue, 2011-06-14 at 18:45 -0700, Leslie wrote:
> Maybe I'm too pessimistic. I usually think of myself as being overly
> optimistic, but, I really wouldn't see paying 'more' for a frame than
> what it originally cost.

In which case, I hope you never get the urge to have a Herse or a Singer
or even a Jack Taylor, because there is absolutely zero chance you would
ever find one going for what one cost new.

A Schwinn P15 Paramount in July 1971 cost $352. What is one worth now?

What is a new XTR M900 crank set worth? Ten years ago, you could find
one NOS for around $185. Last week, one was available on ebay for $500.
I bought my Mafac RAID brakes for around $60, NOS around 6 years ago,
when there was still a supply of them. These days, a NOS RAID brake set
will cost you a couple of hundred dollars, if you can find one.

[Peter Pesce]

Interesting topic indeed. I'm pretty new to the 'dell so I don't have much historical perspective or data to add.
One idea, though - would it be any use to have the Group admin set up a database where we could list transactions in used Rivs?
I know of other "collector" groups that do something similar... you can enter data as either buyer or seller, or as a 3rd party (ie, "I saw this one sold on ebay...) as long it is clearly stated....

-Pete

[jimD]

OK this cinches it.

I'm keeping the 61 cm Bleriot frame that hangs from the rafters in my garage.

the Bleriot's components went to outfit a Saluki.

Who knew it would become a collectors item?

Of course if the 'recession' carries on all bets are off.

-JimD

On Jun 14, 2011, at 11:10 AM, Brett Lindenbach wrote:

I bought a 59 cm Blériot frame and fork in very good condition on ebay late last year, and paid $910.  That was the market rate on that day, and I was almost outbid.  I was glad to pay it too, as it is a great frameset.

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[Minh]

I find this idea a litlte counter to the spirit of Rivendell in
general as it seems like these bikes were always meant to be ridden
and beat-up. If you really want to see the price of things you can
get a sense of it from the archives, but the ranges that people have
been throwing out are pretty accurate i think

[Brett Lindenbach]

You're right on both accounts.  The Blériot was a steal to begin with, and there is no good replacement anywhere near in value.  Also, because it was pulled from the market sooner than expected, I think there was less fatigue.  One might argue that the Ram market suffers from Ram-fatigue.
And, the Blériot fit a niche that hasn't been replaced, namely the 650 market.  Sure, Rivendell still makes 650Bs, but only in smaller frame sizes.  I ride a 59 cm, and they just don't make them.

[Leslie]

No, I have no urge to have any of those; however, it's not like you
can watch Rene putting one together now, can you? At a certain
point, yes, a collector value on turn the price decline around, and
things will start to be worth more. It enters the 'antique' market,
as would cars. At one point, old Mustangs were just an older car,
and not worth a lot, but, now they are. That's what those bikes
are, they're old enough to have a collectable value.

Rivendell started in '94. They're not old enough yet. When my
Rambouillet is has many decades under its belt, then maybe I might
expect the price to go up, but, that's not why I bought a Riv.... I
bought it to ride....

[Charlie]

I don't post much but do have some comments here.........

I was talking last week with Rivendell about the purchase of a Betty
Foy or the possibility of a custom Hunqapillar type mixte. I
currently ride a 48 cm Hunqa and have an original never built 52cm
mixte hanging in the rafters. I ride very upright and would like a
little higher handlebar position than the Hunqa provides - thus the
discussion about a 58 cm Betty or a custom mixte with a high handlebar
position. I now have my doubts that the 52 mixte would provide any
higher handle bar position than the Hunqa.

Anyway - my point - Keven said if I sold the mixte not to take less
than to $2000 - and also offered $1600 on a trade toward a custom -
which is what I paid for it several years ago.

Charlie

PS: The mixte is not for sale.

[cm]

You mean you have a new Glorius/ Wilbury hanging in your garage? Do
you have any pics? These bikes seem to have just disappeared and
attained an almost mythical status-- I knew a guy who knew a guy who
once rode with a guy who had one.

Cheers!
cm

[EricP]

Maybe I'm being optimistic here (probably). But feel sorta like
Rivendell owners are often more critical in their bike needs (in a
good way). So are willing to pay a premium to get a specific bike.
Not necessarily the vintage idea, which is a whole 'nother thing. But
more towards the boutique end, yet still practical. Like a good
Collings or Santa Cruz guitar, which holds value much better than a
Martin or Gibson.

On the udder hand (to milk it some more) not all bikes are the same to
all folks. Personally might pay a premium for an old lugged
Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh. On the
Rambouillet, it does nothing for me. However, I do like, nay love,
the look of the AHH. My money would be for the latter.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

> bought it to ride....- Hide quoted text -

[Charlie]

Two posts in one day for me.................

This is to Eric.........

If hanging next to the Wilbury mixte referenced a few messages above,
there was a red, lugged, 19 1/2 inch, 1985 Stumpjumper frame and fork,
made by Toyo (I think) - one owner - purchased new by me in 1985 -
what sort of premium might one expect?????


Charlie

[Seth]

$352 in 1971 means rougly $1890 today...

[islaysteve]

Leslie, No offense taken by me at all! I understand what you're
saying about some people overpaying for nice-looking restored car,
while more knowledgable folks know that there is an upper limit to
reasonable prices for any given model. This may be similar to the
pricing on the Ram we are discussing, but of course the final sale
price will determine that (if we ever find out.) I'm also amazed by
the high asking prices for some older bikes on CL. It may seem
reasonable to the seller that if a $700 (when new) bike is like new,
it should be worth $400 now. They don't realize that the technology
has moved on so much in 10, 15 or 20 years, that their bike is pretty
much obsolete to most buyers. I guess the fixed-gear/single-speed
trend has been a boon to those selling older steel bikes. I'm just
glad that I bought my Bleriot when I did, for what I paid. Steve

> that's my perspective....  FWIW.....- Hide quoted text -

[EricP]

Honestly, no idea. I think that's the lugged unicrown fork model.
(Too lazy to look it up.) If it doesn't have a U brake fitting under
the seatstays, it's worth more. But really have no idea on a price.
Montclair BobbyB might know more. He's had more of those bikes
through his hands.

I'd want one because it's a bike I rode before the big hiatus. The
few I've ridden since then are not great performing bikes, but it's
the memory of what I used to have that I'd pay for. And that is only
if I wanted it when one came along.

Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN

> > Specialized Stumpjumper, while others would go meh.  - Hide quoted text -

[Joe Bernard]

I'd love to score a Bleriot, for completely shallow reasons: It's my
favorite Riv name/graphics package. I don't know the story of them
being pulled from the market, and didn't realize they disappeared
quickly (I was in recumbent world the last three years).

About the mythical Legolas: I was at Rivendell a few years ago, cash
in hand, staring at one in my size. I was *this* close to buying...and
bailed out. They only made 80!? Oh my heart..

> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -

[David Sprunger]

This is an interesting thread.

One aspect not yet discussed concerns the economics of being an early
adapter.  For example, I bought a first-generation Atlantis when the
frame was about $900.  I rode it hard and was able to sell it later
for about what I paid, not so much because the frame had appreciated
but because a new frame had about doubled in price.  I went on to buy
a Bombadil when the pre-release price was $1400. The current price is
now $2500.  (This example is perhaps not as parallel because my 60 cm
frame has the double tube whereas the current models have the diagonal
tube).  As others have pointed out, interest in the Quickbeam remains
high, so one imagines that those who bought the SimpleOne at its
introductory price will find that those frames hold their value well.

David Sprunger
Fargo, ND

Bikes: http://www.cord.edu/faculty/sprunger/bikes/

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[Brett Lindenbach]

JimD, Any chance you might be willing to trade your raftered 61 cm Blériot for my 59 cm Blériot?  I often think that mine is just a little too small for me.  What a deal, too, as ,ine's worth $910 compared to the $750 you paid for yours! ;^)
Serious about that, contact me off-list.
Cheers,
Brett

[jimD]

OK, seems to me we should all reveal what Rivendell frames/bikes we have hanging around that we don't ride.

I confessed to having a 61 Bleriot that charitably donated it's parts to my Saluki.

Anybody want to unburden their conscience?

 -JimD

[Seth Vidal]

On Thu, Jun 16, 2011 at 10:50 AM, jimD <raste...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> OK, seems to me we should all reveal what Rivendell frames/bikes we have
> hanging around that we don't ride.
> I confessed to having a 61 Bleriot that charitably donated it's parts to my
> Saluki.
> Anybody want to unburden their conscience?
>  -JimD
>

If anyone has a 61cm atlantis or AHH f/f hanging about in the rafters
that they are thinking of parting ways with feel free to let me know
;)

-sv

[jimD]

Sorry, 59 is small/ish for me with a 91.5 pbh. Plus I do plan to keep it.

I really do intend to re-configure the Bleriot.

The dream is to outfit it to tour parts/maybe all of the Great Divide route.

Then there are the true adventurers (or insert your own characterization) who race it. 

Which reminds me - they're at it again:

http://tourdivide.org/leaderboard

http://www.bikepacking.net/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=d321513640565be93d686e15dd91527f&topic=2179.440

Cheers,

JimD

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[robert zeidler]

Nope. Hoarding and proud of it.

[jimD]

Not that I'm in favor of proliferating Flickr Riv subset groups but perhaps a Rivendell Hoarders flickr group would be in order?

But then we'd have to decide if the photos need to be of the bikes/frames hanging from the rafters or if pictures of the bikes

in their pre-hoarded days would be acceptable. It is all just so complex and wonderful that the mind boggles.

Of course those who know me would confirm that I'm easily boggled.

-JimD

[Montclair BobbyB]

Charlie:

The older ones with the bi-plane fork can sometimes fetch more, but I
personally think the 1985 was the best year (before the chainstay
mounted brake reared its ugly head). For a 1985 Stumpy (which WAS the
first year with the unicrown "S" stamped lug fork) in good condition
and original parts, I'd expect to see it sell on eBay for around $300
to $400 (the eBay market fluctuates from week to week, it's flaky).
Personally I think they're worth EVERY cent of that and more, and
can't understand why they don't fetch more.

Then there are the occasional delusional eBay nutcases who think their
83 is worth $900... it's their perogative to overprice, but honestly
they're dreamin. My 85 Stumpy (which I've since customized -
http://tinyurl.com/3sfaqko) to be the way I like it is (honestly) as
nice a ride as any bike in my stable, except for the Bomba (but it's
darn close)... My honest take... KEEP IT... it's THAT good of a
bike. The $300-$400 (or even $500) that you MIGHT get for it couldn't
possibly come close to replacing it... Keep it, and make it into
something special.

Peace,
BB