Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
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Rene Sterental
Jan 7, 2011, 12:40:15 AM1/7/11
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Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17 saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
Thanks,
René
cyclotourist
Jan 7, 2011, 12:46:18 AM1/7/11
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This was just posted today: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2011/01/gilles-berthoud-saddles-something.html#comment-form
It's degrading to comments about whether it is or is not ugly, but the original posting is really good.
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
It's degrading to comments about whether it is or is not ugly, but the original posting is really good.
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
cyclotourist
Jan 7, 2011, 12:46:51 AM1/7/11
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Rene Sterental
Jan 7, 2011, 1:22:07 AM1/7/11
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Thank you! That's just what I was looking for.
René
Sent from my iPhone 4
cyclotourist
Jan 7, 2011, 2:24:44 AM1/7/11
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:-)
Christian
Jan 7, 2011, 9:24:09 AM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Hi
I have direct experience. While my B-17 was very comfortable it did
not last. I wore it out in about 4500 miles--it started sagging to
one side and became asymmetrical. So, it was really comfortable until
it wasn't. I have heard from many others--check out the discussions
on the ibob list--that this is not uncommon. Of course, you might buy
one and have it last for 50,000 miles.
I got a full refund as it was under warranty--it was only a year old--
and purchased a Berthoud touring saddle from Mike Kone at Rene Herse
in Boulder. It's much harder initially than the B17; the leather is,
by my imprecise calculations, at least twice as thick; it's narrower
which I really like. I've ridden perhaps 500-600 miles on it. The
longest was an 80 mile mixed terrain ride, but I've done many 10-60
mile rides, many of which have been mixed terrain. I really like it.
It's always been comfortable yet shows no signs at all of "breaking
in." That is, unlike the Brooks, which started to noticeably conform
to my butt almost immediately, the Berthoud looks like it did the day
it came out of the box.
Is it worth $200? Who knows?! But Mike offers a very reasonable
trial period and the saddle itself comes with a two year warranty from
Berthoud. Saddles are such personal things that I'll refrain from
making a recommendation. But I can say that it is well made and works
for me.
Best wishes
Christian
I have direct experience. While my B-17 was very comfortable it did
not last. I wore it out in about 4500 miles--it started sagging to
one side and became asymmetrical. So, it was really comfortable until
it wasn't. I have heard from many others--check out the discussions
on the ibob list--that this is not uncommon. Of course, you might buy
one and have it last for 50,000 miles.
I got a full refund as it was under warranty--it was only a year old--
and purchased a Berthoud touring saddle from Mike Kone at Rene Herse
in Boulder. It's much harder initially than the B17; the leather is,
by my imprecise calculations, at least twice as thick; it's narrower
which I really like. I've ridden perhaps 500-600 miles on it. The
longest was an 80 mile mixed terrain ride, but I've done many 10-60
mile rides, many of which have been mixed terrain. I really like it.
It's always been comfortable yet shows no signs at all of "breaking
in." That is, unlike the Brooks, which started to noticeably conform
to my butt almost immediately, the Berthoud looks like it did the day
it came out of the box.
Is it worth $200? Who knows?! But Mike offers a very reasonable
trial period and the saddle itself comes with a two year warranty from
Berthoud. Saddles are such personal things that I'll refrain from
making a recommendation. But I can say that it is well made and works
for me.
Best wishes
Christian
Steve Palincsar
Jan 7, 2011, 9:32:40 AM1/7/11
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On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 06:24 -0800, Christian wrote:
>
> I have direct experience. While my B-17 was very comfortable it did
> not last. I wore it out in about 4500 miles--it started sagging to
> one side and became asymmetrical. So, it was really comfortable until
> it wasn't. I have heard from many others--check out the discussions
> on the ibob list--that this is not uncommon. Of course, you might buy
> one and have it last for 50,000 miles.
>
> I have direct experience. While my B-17 was very comfortable it did
> not last. I wore it out in about 4500 miles--it started sagging to
> one side and became asymmetrical. So, it was really comfortable until
> it wasn't. I have heard from many others--check out the discussions
> on the ibob list--that this is not uncommon. Of course, you might buy
> one and have it last for 50,000 miles.
I have several B.17s, none new, with mileage in excess of 10,000 miles
and no asymmetric sagging. Although some of these saddles were
purchased after the acquisition of Brooks, I believe they were all made
prior to that. I'm not sure how common the problem is, but I've not
seen it in person, either on my saddles or other people's.
> I got a full refund as it was under warranty--it was only a year old--
> and purchased a Berthoud touring saddle from Mike Kone at Rene Herse
> in Boulder. It's much harder initially than the B17; the leather is,
> by my imprecise calculations, at least twice as thick;
I recently got a Berthoud Touring and I agree, the leather seems to be
at least twice as thick as a B.l7. I haven't ridden mine yet.
Montclair BobbyB
Jan 7, 2011, 9:46:21 AM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Few things in life bring a smile to my face like a good discussion
about the B17... 100+ year-old design, millions of miles... says an
awful lot.
Bobby "more B17s than Imelda Marcos has shoes" Birmingham
about the B17... 100+ year-old design, millions of miles... says an
awful lot.
Bobby "more B17s than Imelda Marcos has shoes" Birmingham
Steve Palincsar
Jan 7, 2011, 9:49:55 AM1/7/11
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On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 06:46 -0800, Montclair BobbyB wrote:
> Few things in life bring a smile to my face like a good discussion
> about the B17... 100+ year-old design, millions of miles... says an
> awful lot.
> Few things in life bring a smile to my face like a good discussion
> about the B17... 100+ year-old design, millions of miles... says an
> awful lot.
There's all sorts of evolution that's happened in the past 100 years,
but asses haven't changed at all.
JoelMatthews
Jan 7, 2011, 11:12:04 AM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I could never get comfortable on a B-17 or any of the Fizik saddles so
tried the Berthoud more out of desperation than anything. Right out
of the box I had an opportunity to do an ~500 mile trip. No
discomfort at all.
As for appearance, I prefer Berthoud to the Brooks. The Berthoud
shape is less pronounced. In my opinion, Brooks has a very strong
silhouette that pulls the eye away from the lines of the bicycles. No
problem, obviously, if you like the Brooks shape. I am not as
enamored as some other riders .
Some of the comments to the linked review mention Ideale saddles. I
collected Ideale over the years. I have since sold most but still
have two in the display case. They are lovely pieces of history.
Certainly an Ideale will match well with a correct restoration.
Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
tried the Berthoud more out of desperation than anything. Right out
of the box I had an opportunity to do an ~500 mile trip. No
discomfort at all.
As for appearance, I prefer Berthoud to the Brooks. The Berthoud
shape is less pronounced. In my opinion, Brooks has a very strong
silhouette that pulls the eye away from the lines of the bicycles. No
problem, obviously, if you like the Brooks shape. I am not as
enamored as some other riders .
Some of the comments to the linked review mention Ideale saddles. I
collected Ideale over the years. I have since sold most but still
have two in the display case. They are lovely pieces of history.
Certainly an Ideale will match well with a correct restoration.
Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
Steve Palincsar
Jan 7, 2011, 11:29:19 AM1/7/11
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On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
> Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
JoelMatthews
Jan 7, 2011, 12:29:30 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
> I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
saddles). I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
need frequent tightening. Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
that model?
Clayton Scott
Jan 7, 2011, 12:42:15 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt through my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring saddle.
I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I did ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end I did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of the b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100 miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I get more used to eachother.
I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for 60 days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
Best,
Clayton Scott
SF, CA
Lee
Jan 7, 2011, 1:10:11 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Joel and Clayton:
I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
Apsin?
Thanks,
Lee
San Francisco, CA
On Jan 7, 9:42 am, Clayton Scott <clayton...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt through
> my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring
> saddle.
> I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a
> little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
> room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
> The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
> Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I did
> ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end I
> did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
> protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started
> setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting
> nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of the
> b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100
> miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I get
> more used to eachother.
> I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for 60
> days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
>
> Best,
> Clayton Scott
> SF, CA
>
> > .
I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
Apsin?
Thanks,
Lee
San Francisco, CA
On Jan 7, 9:42 am, Clayton Scott <clayton...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt through
> my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring
> saddle.
> I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a
> little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
> room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
> The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
> Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I did
> ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end I
> did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
> protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started
> setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting
> nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of the
> b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100
> miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I get
> more used to eachother.
> I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for 60
> days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
>
> Best,
> Clayton Scott
> SF, CA
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
> > My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> > saddles). I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> > comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
>
> > Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
> > need frequent tightening. Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
> > that model?
>
> > On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> > > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> > > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
>
> > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
> > My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> > saddles). I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> > comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
>
> > Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
> > need frequent tightening. Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
> > that model?
>
> > On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar <palin...@his.com> wrote:
> > > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> > > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> > > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
>
> > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > work as well as a B.17. It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
> > --
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > .
rperks
Jan 7, 2011, 1:13:09 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Rene,
I have been outlining a writeup myself on this subject, looks like
Lovelybike beat me too it. I think you and I are in a similar size
class, 6'2" 220 lb, so some of my thoughts may carry over.
I bought my Berthoud well over a year ago and have moved it around on
different bikes. My other basis of comparison are the B17 on all my
other bikes, I am too embarrassed to count at the moment.
Out of the box the Berthoud was perfect, thicker leather but more
comfortable. As I rotated the saddles around, the Berthoud has eneded
up on whichever bike is getting the most milage at the moment. By
this point I have put a few thousand miles on it and it is starting to
take the shape of my arse.
http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1.5coast-2.jpg
I like the narrowness in the front with the suport in the rear. It
hits my sit bones in the same way as the B17, but the narrow nose has
more thigh room. Only downside so far was pulling all the screws to
add some locktite
Bottom line for me, this is my favorite saddle on bike where the bars
are at or below the saddle. If I have the bars up high or albatross
bars I still like the Brooks more.
Rob
-
http://oceanaircycles.com/
I have been outlining a writeup myself on this subject, looks like
Lovelybike beat me too it. I think you and I are in a similar size
class, 6'2" 220 lb, so some of my thoughts may carry over.
I bought my Berthoud well over a year ago and have moved it around on
different bikes. My other basis of comparison are the B17 on all my
other bikes, I am too embarrassed to count at the moment.
Out of the box the Berthoud was perfect, thicker leather but more
comfortable. As I rotated the saddles around, the Berthoud has eneded
up on whichever bike is getting the most milage at the moment. By
this point I have put a few thousand miles on it and it is starting to
take the shape of my arse.
http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1.5coast-2.jpg
I like the narrowness in the front with the suport in the rear. It
hits my sit bones in the same way as the B17, but the narrow nose has
more thigh room. Only downside so far was pulling all the screws to
add some locktite
Bottom line for me, this is my favorite saddle on bike where the bars
are at or below the saddle. If I have the bars up high or albatross
bars I still like the Brooks more.
Rob
-
http://oceanaircycles.com/
Clayton Scott
Jan 7, 2011, 1:28:52 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Yes, just mount and tighten clamp.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
Beth H
Jan 7, 2011, 1:42:16 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
A customer came in the shop a few months back with a Berthoud on his
Surly LHT. I aked if I could try the saddle out and he let me take his
bike around the block a few times. The saddle -- which ahd about 300
miles on it by then -- was a bit flat for my liking, and a tad
narrower than the B-17. Still, it wasn't too bad and I imagined it
might break in at least a little over time.
I stopped using the B-17 on my bikes with upright bars last year,
switching over to the sprung Flyer (basically a B-17 with coil
springs). Both Flyers are holding up beautifully, with 2,000 and 800
miles on them, respectively. The Flyer has become my personal
favorite.
One thing about the Berthoud is I like the look of the different
rivets, and the finish of the leather is beautiful. Am I big on All
That Plastic? Not really; but when you're sitting on a saddle the
first thing you should care about is comfort anyway.
Beth
Surly LHT. I aked if I could try the saddle out and he let me take his
bike around the block a few times. The saddle -- which ahd about 300
miles on it by then -- was a bit flat for my liking, and a tad
narrower than the B-17. Still, it wasn't too bad and I imagined it
might break in at least a little over time.
I stopped using the B-17 on my bikes with upright bars last year,
switching over to the sprung Flyer (basically a B-17 with coil
springs). Both Flyers are holding up beautifully, with 2,000 and 800
miles on them, respectively. The Flyer has become my personal
favorite.
One thing about the Berthoud is I like the look of the different
rivets, and the finish of the leather is beautiful. Am I big on All
That Plastic? Not really; but when you're sitting on a saddle the
first thing you should care about is comfort anyway.
Beth
JoelMatthews
Jan 7, 2011, 1:52:14 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
> I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
> than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
> to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
> Apsin?
Lee:
> than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
> to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
> Apsin?
The rails may be more narrow.
One Berthoud is mounted on a CLB post. I do not remember much of an
issue mounting on that one. The other CLB is on a Thomson Masterpiece
(I know - have heard it before - seat post and saddle cost more than
many an entire bike!). The TM is very precisely engineered. It took
some finagaling to get the Berthoud atop it.
To Beth's point - definitely more flat than the B-17. If you like the
B-17 this may be Berthoud deal killer. For me, it appears to be a
plus. As everyone's body and ride style are unique it is good to have
options.
> > > .
> > > For more options, visit this group at
> > >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
> > > For more options, visit this group at
>
> - Show quoted text -
Kelly Sleeper
Jan 7, 2011, 2:50:59 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return it. It looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a benefit if you buy thier saddle bags too.
I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable saddles now.
Kelly
Seth Vidal
Jan 7, 2011, 2:54:12 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Rene Sterental
Jan 7, 2011, 6:47:59 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
René
Sent from my iPhone 4
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Montclair BobbyB
Jan 7, 2011, 7:10:27 PM1/7/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Rene:
If the Berthoud works out, COULD this mean you may have a veritable
arsenal of B17s available for sale??? (tee hee hee)
Bobby "I've already bought a B17 from Rene" Birmingham
On Jan 7, 6:47 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
> like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
> forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>
> Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>
> René
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
If the Berthoud works out, COULD this mean you may have a veritable
arsenal of B17s available for sale??? (tee hee hee)
Bobby "I've already bought a B17 from Rene" Birmingham
On Jan 7, 6:47 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
> like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
> forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>
> Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>
> René
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
jim phillips
Jan 7, 2011, 1:24:16 PM1/7/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud because it is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
JimP
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:10:11 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
> From: lee...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
JimP
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:10:11 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
> From: lee...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
kavalk
Jan 8, 2011, 1:21:58 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I had several Ideale 90A (?) saddles back in the 1980s. Had
them mounted on a Merz custom tourer and a Santana tandem.
Sadly, my best buddy and neighbor did not care for the Ideale
and placed his Brooks on the stoker's seat post.
Loved the saddle, but the break-in to break-down period was
much too short. That time frame was essentially from mile zero
to mile 5,000 at best. I also never got into the habit of strictly
maintaining a leather saddle that was on a bicycle I rode on a
daily basis. I always ran into rain.
Perhaps a topic on maintaining these great pieces of bicycle art
(in regular use) would be a timely subject. I understand periodic
use of Proof Hide, but perhaps there are those of you who have
other suggestions in mind.
them mounted on a Merz custom tourer and a Santana tandem.
Sadly, my best buddy and neighbor did not care for the Ideale
and placed his Brooks on the stoker's seat post.
Loved the saddle, but the break-in to break-down period was
much too short. That time frame was essentially from mile zero
to mile 5,000 at best. I also never got into the habit of strictly
maintaining a leather saddle that was on a bicycle I rode on a
daily basis. I always ran into rain.
Perhaps a topic on maintaining these great pieces of bicycle art
(in regular use) would be a timely subject. I understand periodic
use of Proof Hide, but perhaps there are those of you who have
other suggestions in mind.
Lee
Jan 8, 2011, 2:27:35 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Hey Rene. I just got mine in. Here's a brief visual comparison of the
saddle vis-a-vis a B-17 Champion Special:
http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
I've been slowly accumulating parts to upgrade my distance bike. The
Aspin will replace a Selle An-Atomica, which will go to my saddle-less
camping/utility bike. I had been switching my B-17S between my
commuter (the Quickbeam) and the utility bike.
Best,
Lee
On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
> like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
> forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>
> Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>
> René
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal <skvi...@gmail.com> wrote:
saddle vis-a-vis a B-17 Champion Special:
http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
I've been slowly accumulating parts to upgrade my distance bike. The
Aspin will replace a Selle An-Atomica, which will go to my saddle-less
camping/utility bike. I had been switching my B-17S between my
commuter (the Quickbeam) and the utility bike.
Best,
Lee
On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
> like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
> forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>
> Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>
> René
>
> Sent from my iPhone 4
>
CycloFiend
Jan 8, 2011, 3:17:25 PM1/8/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
on 1/6/11 9:40 PM, Rene Sterental at orth...@gmail.com wrote:
Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17 saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
I have found that for me, the B17 is a bit too wide. I ordered a Brooks Swift through Rivendell a while back and really have grown to like it quite a bit. The reason I bring it up is because others have mentioned that the Berthoud saddle is a bit thicker. The Swift was definitely a thicker cut leather than the B17's I've owned.
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
"One Cog - Zero Excuses" L/S T-shirt (and others!) - Now available
http://www.cyclofiend.com/stuff
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com
--
Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net
"One Cog - Zero Excuses" L/S T-shirt (and others!) - Now available
http://www.cyclofiend.com/stuff
Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com
Current Classics - Cross Bikes
Singlespeed - Working Bikes
Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com
Mojo
Jan 8, 2011, 6:37:18 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Rene,
B17s work very well for me. I first bought one from early Rivendell
back in 1995 for my Robin Hood 3speed
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/3993215438/in/set-72157607471577085/
After a few years, I realized it was the most comfortable saddle I had
ridden, and bought another for my road bike, then all other bikes
except the mtn bike. B17s are perfectly comfortable out of the box.
But the fast wear and quickly changing/sagging leather has made me
concerned.
I bought a cork Touring Berthoud last fall. Beautiful finish and thick
thick leather convinced me to purchase from Rene Herse cycles in
Boulder. I have several shortish rides on it so far, and it does not
have B17 comfort for me. I think the not-quite-as-wide back is not a
problem. I think perhaps it is the very flat profile of the Berthoud
that may feel different to me compared to the distinct fore-aft dip in
the B17. But I have high hopes. A few sweaty hot rides may help to
modify the saddle to me. Its hard to get sweaty on the bike at this
time of year with 2 inches of snow on the ground.
I want to like the Berthoud. But at this point we are still assessing
each other to see if it will be a match.
On Jan 6, 10:40 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17
> saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
>
> Thanks,
>
> René
B17s work very well for me. I first bought one from early Rivendell
back in 1995 for my Robin Hood 3speed
http://www.flickr.com/photos/79695460@N00/3993215438/in/set-72157607471577085/
After a few years, I realized it was the most comfortable saddle I had
ridden, and bought another for my road bike, then all other bikes
except the mtn bike. B17s are perfectly comfortable out of the box.
But the fast wear and quickly changing/sagging leather has made me
concerned.
I bought a cork Touring Berthoud last fall. Beautiful finish and thick
thick leather convinced me to purchase from Rene Herse cycles in
Boulder. I have several shortish rides on it so far, and it does not
have B17 comfort for me. I think the not-quite-as-wide back is not a
problem. I think perhaps it is the very flat profile of the Berthoud
that may feel different to me compared to the distinct fore-aft dip in
the B17. But I have high hopes. A few sweaty hot rides may help to
modify the saddle to me. Its hard to get sweaty on the bike at this
time of year with 2 inches of snow on the ground.
I want to like the Berthoud. But at this point we are still assessing
each other to see if it will be a match.
On Jan 6, 10:40 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17
> saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
>
>
> René
JoelMatthews
Jan 8, 2011, 6:46:26 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
> My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud because it is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
>
> JimP
Jim:
>
> JimP
Berthoud is definitely a company very much in the French tradition -
small, family run, not necessarily concerned about being the biggest
or fastest to market. at least in my opinion anyway, they make nice
stuff.
The Berthoud saddle does not look all that much like Ideale the
classic French saddle I and some other posters mention. It is a
unique design whether that means it is uniquely French, I could not
say.
On Jan 7, 12:24 pm, jim phillips <thefamil...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud because it is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
>
> JimP
>
>
>
> > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:10:11 -0800
> > Subject: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
EricP
Jan 8, 2011, 7:12:01 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Have not used the Berthoud but my fears about it are two-fold. Would
the frame handle my weight (220 to 230)? At least metal is known to
be able to handle that girth and not fail.
Also, how would it handle a Minnesota winter? Althought am not sure
it would be the saddle that would end up on my winter bike. (Which is
currently a choice between a Terry and a VO.)
Am starting to feel my B-17 saddles are slowly dying. Although having
to put up with my heft for the past few years would probably make any
material fail.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
> > > For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text -
the frame handle my weight (220 to 230)? At least metal is known to
be able to handle that girth and not fail.
Also, how would it handle a Minnesota winter? Althought am not sure
it would be the saddle that would end up on my winter bike. (Which is
currently a choice between a Terry and a VO.)
Am starting to feel my B-17 saddles are slowly dying. Although having
to put up with my heft for the past few years would probably make any
material fail.
Eric Platt
St. Paul, MN
Rene Sterental
Jan 8, 2011, 8:16:57 PM1/8/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Yes it would... :-)
Sent from my iPhone 4
msrw
Jan 8, 2011, 8:37:28 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I'm also one of the apparent minority who tried a Berthoud, and found
it uncomfortable, even on reasonably short rides--25 miles. The
material and build quality is amazing and I was disappointed that the
comfort didn't match all the other exceptional qualities of this
saddle.
I have B-17's in various versions on all my bikes--Champion Flyer on
the commuter with upright bars, Ti versions on my brevet bike and
tandem. I've only had one B-17 fail due to assymetrical stretching,
and it was replaced by Brooks under warranty.
My weight is about 180 lbs.
it uncomfortable, even on reasonably short rides--25 miles. The
material and build quality is amazing and I was disappointed that the
comfort didn't match all the other exceptional qualities of this
saddle.
I have B-17's in various versions on all my bikes--Champion Flyer on
the commuter with upright bars, Ti versions on my brevet bike and
tandem. I've only had one B-17 fail due to assymetrical stretching,
and it was replaced by Brooks under warranty.
My weight is about 180 lbs.
omnigrid
Jan 8, 2011, 6:52:17 PM1/8/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
regarding b17 vs. berthoud touring...
are the rails longer on the berthoud...or just as short as on the b17?
are the rails longer on the berthoud...or just as short as on the b17?
Mike S
Jan 8, 2011, 9:40:54 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I just bought a Selle An-Atomica LD Clydesdale saddle, mainly because
it was on sale for $133 and I'm intrigued by the design and that it's
MUSA. I'm wondering if I may have made a mistake by choosing this
saddle over the Berthoud, which I considered but deemed not worthy of
the higher cost.
I've been riding a B.17 for about 3000 miles so far and it seems to be
in real good shape and I am very comfortable on a B.17, but I'm
wondering if there is something better. My primary concerns are a ride
that is of maximum comfort, and I also want outstanding durability.
Can any Selle An-Atomica users vouch for it's longevity, and can
anyone compare the two (Berthoud & S.A)?
Although the B.17 has served me well so far, I am a little worried
about the longevity with a post-acquisition saddle, and I'm also
generally always looking for gear improvements. Is the verdict that
the Gilles Berthoud is the best bang for the buck, despite the higher
cost?
Also, my riding is always with the handlebars a few centimeters higher
than the saddle.
it was on sale for $133 and I'm intrigued by the design and that it's
MUSA. I'm wondering if I may have made a mistake by choosing this
saddle over the Berthoud, which I considered but deemed not worthy of
the higher cost.
I've been riding a B.17 for about 3000 miles so far and it seems to be
in real good shape and I am very comfortable on a B.17, but I'm
wondering if there is something better. My primary concerns are a ride
that is of maximum comfort, and I also want outstanding durability.
Can any Selle An-Atomica users vouch for it's longevity, and can
anyone compare the two (Berthoud & S.A)?
Although the B.17 has served me well so far, I am a little worried
about the longevity with a post-acquisition saddle, and I'm also
generally always looking for gear improvements. Is the verdict that
the Gilles Berthoud is the best bang for the buck, despite the higher
cost?
Also, my riding is always with the handlebars a few centimeters higher
than the saddle.
Mike S
Jan 8, 2011, 10:06:27 PM1/8/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Also, an issue in my saddle selection is fore-aft adjustment. I wanted
to try the Selle An-Atomica because it seems it can mounted much
further back than a B.17, which I need on the bike it is for that has
a too-short top tube. I would rather have the problem solved by a
saddle than another $150 lugged nitto wayback post. How do the rails
on the Berthoud compare with a B.17 and S.A?
to try the Selle An-Atomica because it seems it can mounted much
further back than a B.17, which I need on the bike it is for that has
a too-short top tube. I would rather have the problem solved by a
saddle than another $150 lugged nitto wayback post. How do the rails
on the Berthoud compare with a B.17 and S.A?
Bill M.
Jan 9, 2011, 12:49:00 AM1/9/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Mike,
The S-A can indeed be mounted pretty far back, but the mfg warns
against it:
"Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
The majority of the frames that bent were using Thompson seat posts,
and others like them with the rail clamp centered over the top of the
seat post tube, and on seat posts with very short clamps. Many who
managed to bend rails also had their saddle set back as far as it will
go. The riders have been men and women of various weights on Standard
& Clydesdale models. The population of damaged saddles is so very
small we are at a loss to identify a cause. Engineers examine
offending saddles as they are returned. We replace these saddles with
the caveat that the rider use a seat post with longer section clamp
and more setback in the clamp. Anyone riding a saddle set back as far
as it will go on our rails is likely on a poorly fitting bike frame.
If your frame fits you appropriately, if the handlebars are properly
positioned (not too far away and too far down as is too common), and
if you have a well engineered seat post, your saddle will be
positioned in the middle of the rails. See the Seat Post section in
our Saddle & Handlebar Adjustment Procedure pamphlet that comes with
each saddle."
They aren't kidding. Ask how I know...
Bill
The S-A can indeed be mounted pretty far back, but the mfg warns
against it:
"Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
The majority of the frames that bent were using Thompson seat posts,
and others like them with the rail clamp centered over the top of the
seat post tube, and on seat posts with very short clamps. Many who
managed to bend rails also had their saddle set back as far as it will
go. The riders have been men and women of various weights on Standard
& Clydesdale models. The population of damaged saddles is so very
small we are at a loss to identify a cause. Engineers examine
offending saddles as they are returned. We replace these saddles with
the caveat that the rider use a seat post with longer section clamp
and more setback in the clamp. Anyone riding a saddle set back as far
as it will go on our rails is likely on a poorly fitting bike frame.
If your frame fits you appropriately, if the handlebars are properly
positioned (not too far away and too far down as is too common), and
if you have a well engineered seat post, your saddle will be
positioned in the middle of the rails. See the Seat Post section in
our Saddle & Handlebar Adjustment Procedure pamphlet that comes with
each saddle."
They aren't kidding. Ask how I know...
Bill
PATRICK MOORE
Jan 9, 2011, 10:38:03 AM1/9/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Mike: don't use your saddle position to adjust your bar position; do
it the other way 'round: get your saddle right and then get the stem
you need for the right bar position.
it the other way 'round: get your saddle right and then get the stem
you need for the right bar position.
This will solve your saddle problem by, perhaps, transferring the
problem to the stem -- the last (Salsa) custom stems cost me about
$150, IIRC. Seriously, saddle position is the starting point of good
bike fit as the experts (not me, tho' I verified their wisdom in by my
own experience) including Grant always point out.
http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm
"The Fore-Aft Saddle Position
Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a
bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right,
everything else is easy. ..."
--
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, NM
For professional resumes, contact
Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumesp...@gmail.com
PATRICK MOORE
Jan 9, 2011, 10:41:28 AM1/9/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Oh heck, since I refer to it so much, here is that section entire:
The Fore-Aft Saddle Position
Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a
bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right,
everything else is easy. This position is determined more by how you
intend to use your bike than by anything else. If you look at a
typical bike, the saddle is behind the crank center, or bottom
bracket. There's a frame tube (the seat tube) running from the cranks
to the saddle, and it's at an angle. That angle partly determines the
fore-aft position of the saddle relative to the cranks and pedals.
That fore-aft position determines how your body is balanced on the
bicycle. Your balance determines how comfortable you are, and how
efficiently you can pedal the bike.
Stand up straight in front of a mirror and turn to the side. Look at
yourself in the mirror. When standing straight your head, hands, seat
and feet are all fairly close to being in line with each other. Now
bend over at the waist. Notice that not only has your head moved to a
position ahead of your feet, but your rear end has moved behind your
feet. If this were not the case, you would fall forward. Your seat
moves back when you bend at the waist to keep you in balance.
Your torso needs to be leaning forward for two reasons; power output
and aerodynamics. With an upright torso, you can't use the gluteus
muscles to good effect. Also, you can't effectively pull up on the
handlebar from an upright position. An upright torso is also very poor
aerodynamically. When cycling on level ground, the majority of your
effort goes against wind resistance. The easier it is for your body to
move through the air, the less work you'll have to do. With your torso
closer to horizontal, you present less frontal surface to the air and
don't have to work as hard to maintain a given speed.
Obviously, the most aerodynamically efficient position may not be the
most pleasant position to be in for several hours on a cross country
tour. So there's a tradeoff. As you move to a more horizontal
position, the saddle needs to be positioned further to the rear to
maintain your body's balance, just as your rear end moves to the rear
as you bend over while standing. It so happens that racers are more
inclined to use a horizontal torso position than tourers, and racers
are more concerned with having the handlebars further forward to make
climbing and sprinting out of the saddle more effective.
If a bicycle had the saddle directly over the cranks, you wouldn't be
able to lean your body forward without supporting the weight of your
torso with your arms. Because the saddle on a typical bicycle is
behind the cranks, your seat is positioned behind your feet and your
body can be in balance. Try this test. You'll need a friend to hold
the bike up, or set it on a wind trainer. Sit on your bike with your
hands on the handlebars and the crank arms horizontal. If you have a
drop bar, hold the bar out on the brake hoods. Try taking your hands
off the bar without moving your torso. If it's a strain to hold your
torso in that same position, that's an indication of the work your
arms are doing to hold you up.
For starters, I like to put the saddle in the forward most position
that allows the rider to lift his hands off of the handlebar and
maintain the torso position without strain. You should not feel like
you're about to fall forward when you lift off the handlebar. If it
makes no difference to your back muscles whether you have your hands
on the bars or not, you know that you aren't using your arms to
support your upper body. If you are, your arms and shoulders will
surely get tired on a long ride. But this is a starting position.
Remember that bicycle fit is a series of compromises.
So what's being compromised? Power. There's a limit to how far you can
comfortably reach to the handlebar while seated. If the saddle is well
back for balance, the handlebars will need to be back as well. But to
get power to the pedals while out of the saddle, it helps to have the
handlebars well forward of the cranks. Particularly when climbing out
of the saddle, the best position tends to be had with a long forward
reach to the bars. You can tell this is so by climbing a hill out of
the saddle with your hands as far forward on the brake lever tops as
you can hold them, then climbing the same hill with your hands as far
to the rear as you can on the bars. Chances are you can climb faster
with your hands further forward. So you need to find the best
compromise between a comfortable seated position and reach to the
handlebar, and a forward handlebar position for those times when you
need to stand. Only an inch or two in handlebar placement fore-aft can
make a big difference while climbing. That same inch or two in saddle
position can mean the difference between a comfortable 50 mile ride
and a stiff neck and sore shoulders!
As you move the saddle forward from that balanced position, you'll
have more and more weight supported by your arms, but you'll be able
to position the handlebars further forward for more power. The track
sprinter has the frame built with a rather steep seat tube angle,
which positions the saddle further forward from where the tourer would
want it. But again, the track sprinter spends very little time in the
saddle.
If you can't move your saddle forward enough or backward enough for
the fit you want, don't despair. Different saddles position the rails
further ahead than others, giving more or less saddle offset.
Seatposts are available with the clamps in different positions
relative to the centerline of the post.
So, how do YOU want to balance on YOUR bike? Do you want to emphasize
speed and acceleration? Do you care mostly about comfort and enjoying
the scenery? The answers to these questions determine how you position
the saddle, not some computer program or someone's system of charts
and graphs. How your best friend fits his bike should have no bearing
on what you do even if he has exactly the same body proportions as
you. YOU know why you ride a bike. Only YOU know what compromises you
are willing to make in order to achieve your purposes on a bicycle.
You may have a bicycle for short fast rides, and another for long
tours. Just as the two bikes will have different components so as to
be well suited for their purposes, so might the fit be different. The
rider hasn't changed. You are still you. But your purpose has changed.
The light, fast bike for short rides will likely have a more forward
and lower handlebar position than the tourer. And so the saddle may
well be further forward too.
As you move the saddle forward or rearward, you are also changing the
effective saddle height, relative to the cranks, since the saddle
rails are usually not perpendicular to the seat tube. So be prepared
to change the seat post extension as you adjust the fore-aft saddle
position; lowering the saddle as you move it back to maintain the same
leg extension, and raising it as you move the saddle forward.
Jason Hartman
Jan 9, 2011, 11:51:30 AM1/9/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
It's not the customer's fault if the saddle breaks or bends when
being pushed back as far as it will go. If S-A does not want anyone
doing it, they should make the adjustable part of the rails shorter.
Jay Hartman
being pushed back as far as it will go. If S-A does not want anyone
doing it, they should make the adjustable part of the rails shorter.
Jay Hartman
Philip Williamson
Jan 9, 2011, 12:33:14 PM1/9/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, "Bill M." <bmenn...@comcast.net> wrote:
> "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
> past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
> happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
...
> "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
> past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
> happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
> They aren't kidding. Ask how I know...
Hucking your Bombadil?
Philip
Philip Williamson
www.biketinker.com
Bill M.
Jan 9, 2011, 4:58:35 PM1/9/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
No Bomba in my stable!
It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back,
a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old
American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails.
As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a
different post and a less extreme position.
Jason,
If the mfg. says "don't do this" and you do anyway, don't you own some
responsibility for the results?
Bill
On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:
It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back,
a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old
American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails.
As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a
different post and a less extreme position.
Jason,
If the mfg. says "don't do this" and you do anyway, don't you own some
responsibility for the results?
Bill
On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:
Mike S
Jan 9, 2011, 6:19:28 PM1/9/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Well, based on that near-certainty of bent rails based on what I want
to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost & B17 combo is in
order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend
themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn
from experience.
Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who
can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost?
to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost & B17 combo is in
order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend
themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn
from experience.
Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who
can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost?
Jason Hartman
Jan 9, 2011, 7:44:49 PM1/9/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
It's a problem with the saddle's design.
If they don't want it pushed that far back, then they should
make it so it does not go that far back.
Say I came up with some new big water bottle that still fit
in a regular cage, but could hold a gallon of water.
Then I sold a bunch of them and some of them cracked
and leaked when filled to capacity.
Would it then be OK to keep selling the bottles as long as I
sent a disclaimer saying "It says one gallon, but it's really
only good for three quarts. Furthermore, if you need more than
three quarts, then maybe you should examine your whole water
carrying system"?
Jay Hartman
If they don't want it pushed that far back, then they should
make it so it does not go that far back.
Say I came up with some new big water bottle that still fit
in a regular cage, but could hold a gallon of water.
Then I sold a bunch of them and some of them cracked
and leaked when filled to capacity.
Would it then be OK to keep selling the bottles as long as I
sent a disclaimer saying "It says one gallon, but it's really
only good for three quarts. Furthermore, if you need more than
three quarts, then maybe you should examine your whole water
carrying system"?
Jay Hartman
Roger
Jan 9, 2011, 2:58:22 PM1/9/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
That's a lot to copy, but I like where the thinking leads. I think of
a nice position by visualizing a skier photoshopped onto a bicycle.
For any amount of tuck, there is an equal amount of rump behind the
feet as there is to body in front.
I don't care about the racer's position stuff.
On Jan 9, 7:41 am, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh heck, since I refer to it so much, here is that section entire:
>
> The Fore-Aft Saddle Position...
a nice position by visualizing a skier photoshopped onto a bicycle.
For any amount of tuck, there is an equal amount of rump behind the
feet as there is to body in front.
I don't care about the racer's position stuff.
On Jan 9, 7:41 am, PATRICK MOORE <bertin...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh heck, since I refer to it so much, here is that section entire:
>
rperks
Jan 10, 2011, 11:42:31 PM1/10/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I fleshed out my feelings on the berthoud saddle a little mre here:
http://wp.me/p19mfs-bB
or
http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/01/10/giles-berthoud…view-14-months/
Bottom line is I love these saddles, the only thing keeping me from
owning more is a temporary speed bump in the cash flow.
Rob
On Jan 7, 10:13 am, rperks <perks....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rene,
> I have been outlining a writeup myself on this subject, looks like
> Lovelybike beat me too it. I think you and I are in a similar size
> class, 6'2" 220 lb, so some of my thoughts may carry over.
>
> I bought my Berthoud well over a year ago and have moved it around on
> different bikes. My other basis of comparison are the B17 on all my
> other bikes, I am too embarrassed to count at the moment.
>
> Out of the box the Berthoud was perfect, thicker leather but more
> comfortable. As I rotated the saddles around, the Berthoud has eneded
> up on whichever bike is getting the most milage at the moment. By
> this point I have put a few thousand miles on it and it is starting to
> take the shape of my arse.
>
> http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1.5coast-2.jpg
>
> I like the narrowness in the front with the suport in the rear. It
> hits my sit bones in the same way as the B17, but the narrow nose has
> more thigh room. Only downside so far was pulling all the screws to
> add some locktite
>
> Bottom line for me, this is my favorite saddle on bike where the bars
> are at or below the saddle. If I have the bars up high or albatross
> bars I still like the Brooks more.
>
> Rob
> -http://oceanaircycles.com/
http://wp.me/p19mfs-bB
or
http://oceanaircycles.com/2011/01/10/giles-berthoud…view-14-months/
Bottom line is I love these saddles, the only thing keeping me from
owning more is a temporary speed bump in the cash flow.
Rob
On Jan 7, 10:13 am, rperks <perks....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Rene,
> I have been outlining a writeup myself on this subject, looks like
> Lovelybike beat me too it. I think you and I are in a similar size
> class, 6'2" 220 lb, so some of my thoughts may carry over.
>
> I bought my Berthoud well over a year ago and have moved it around on
> different bikes. My other basis of comparison are the B17 on all my
> other bikes, I am too embarrassed to count at the moment.
>
> Out of the box the Berthoud was perfect, thicker leather but more
> comfortable. As I rotated the saddles around, the Berthoud has eneded
> up on whichever bike is getting the most milage at the moment. By
> this point I have put a few thousand miles on it and it is starting to
> take the shape of my arse.
>
> http://oceanaircycles.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/1.5coast-2.jpg
>
> I like the narrowness in the front with the suport in the rear. It
> hits my sit bones in the same way as the B17, but the narrow nose has
> more thigh room. Only downside so far was pulling all the screws to
> add some locktite
>
> Bottom line for me, this is my favorite saddle on bike where the bars
> are at or below the saddle. If I have the bars up high or albatross
> bars I still like the Brooks more.
>
> Rob
> -http://oceanaircycles.com/
>
> On Jan 6, 9:40 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17
> > saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
>
> > Thanks,
>
> > René- Hide quoted text -
> On Jan 6, 9:40 pm, Rene Sterental <orthie...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Can anyone provide how the Berthoud Touring Saddles would compare to a B17
> > saddle? I own B17 saddles but have never ridden a Berthoud one.
>
> > Thanks,
>
Rene Sterental
Jan 11, 2011, 1:04:09 AM1/11/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Great review Rob.
A natural/steel Berthoud Touring saddle is now on its way to me and I'll soon find out if I'll be keeping it and putting all my almost new B-17 saddles on sale or sending it back. Wallinford's 6 month return guarantee is great to try such an expensive saddle.
Stay tuned... :-)
René
NickBull
Jan 11, 2011, 1:06:13 PM1/11/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
It's a little unclear just how much setback the Nitto lugged seatpost
has. Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on
AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback,
so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of
setback.
That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru
seatpost, 30.2mm. I've been riding one of those for a little over a
month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost. Much less expensive
than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course.
Nick
has. Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on
AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback,
so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of
setback.
That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru
seatpost, 30.2mm. I've been riding one of those for a little over a
month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost. Much less expensive
than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course.
Nick
grrlyrida
Jan 11, 2011, 6:59:09 PM1/11/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
I like the look and feel of the B17S. I looked at the Berthoud also
but I couldn't get past the $200 price tag and aesthetically I don't
find them pleasing. When I see them the first thing I see is plastic.
They remind of the faux leather saddles my lbs carries. They have a
lot of plastic on them too.
But like with cycling shorts it really is personal preference and fit.
The saddles and cycling short are really hard to evaluate because
there's so many different body types.
but I couldn't get past the $200 price tag and aesthetically I don't
find them pleasing. When I see them the first thing I see is plastic.
They remind of the faux leather saddles my lbs carries. They have a
lot of plastic on them too.
But like with cycling shorts it really is personal preference and fit.
The saddles and cycling short are really hard to evaluate because
there's so many different body types.
cyclotourist
Jan 12, 2011, 1:09:25 AM1/12/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
I got one of those for Xmas, and really like the two bolt design. I am worried about the clamping area as it seems much narrower than a Nitto, Thomspon, or brand X clamp. Seems like it could concentrate vibrations over a smaller area and lead to fatigue on the saddle rails. Time will tell...
--
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
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Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA
...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance. - RTMS
Justin August
Jan 12, 2011, 11:52:10 AM1/12/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Butts are like opinions. Everyone has one and they're all different.
It's a great thing that between Cardiff/VO, Brooks, Berthoud and
others we have great choices of saddles. Plus, since there's always
someone looking for a new saddle to try it's easy to jettison failed
experiments. (like my VO racing saddle. Anyone want it?) ;)
It's a great thing that between Cardiff/VO, Brooks, Berthoud and
others we have great choices of saddles. Plus, since there's always
someone looking for a new saddle to try it's easy to jettison failed
experiments. (like my VO racing saddle. Anyone want it?) ;)
JimD
Jan 12, 2011, 12:20:07 PM1/12/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com, Justin August
Goes on my interwebs wisdom list.
-JImD
Mike S
Jan 12, 2011, 2:28:56 PM1/12/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
From a very crude look at the VO seatpost on their website, it seems
like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also
that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it
better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off-
the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66
frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect
it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if
that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to
last several lifetimes).
The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can
vouch for after buying one from them previously:
http://www.bikemania.biz/Nitto_Seatpost_S84_Lugged_Steel_Seatpost_p/nitto_s84.htm
> > rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com<rbw-owners-bunch%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS
like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also
that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it
better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off-
the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66
frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect
it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if
that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to
last several lifetimes).
The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can
vouch for after buying one from them previously:
http://www.bikemania.biz/Nitto_Seatpost_S84_Lugged_Steel_Seatpost_p/nitto_s84.htm
> > .
> > For more options, visit this group at
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
> >http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS
cyclot...@gmail.com
Jan 12, 2011, 3:31:00 PM1/12/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
The ~10mm I moved my seat back really has helped with my set up. I'm
limited to a Dirt Drop stem for the height I need on my AR, and it's
always been too short in reach. The VO setback makes it much more
comfortable. I don't think I'm using the full extension of setback
(14mm????), so hopefully it won't snap off on me. It still seems like
the clamping area itself should be a little larger to distribute the
forces better. I've been meaning to measure and compare/contrast to a
model 65...
On Jan 12, 11:28 am, Mike S <mikeshalj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From a very crude look at the VO seatpost on their website, it seems
> like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also
> that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it
> better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off-
> the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66
> frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect
> it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if
> that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to
> last several lifetimes).
>
> The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can
> vouch for after buying one from them previously:http://www.bikemania.biz/Nitto_Seatpost_S84_Lugged_Steel_Seatpost_p/n...
limited to a Dirt Drop stem for the height I need on my AR, and it's
always been too short in reach. The VO setback makes it much more
comfortable. I don't think I'm using the full extension of setback
(14mm????), so hopefully it won't snap off on me. It still seems like
the clamping area itself should be a little larger to distribute the
forces better. I've been meaning to measure and compare/contrast to a
model 65...
On Jan 12, 11:28 am, Mike S <mikeshalj...@gmail.com> wrote:
> From a very crude look at the VO seatpost on their website, it seems
> like it has significantly less setback than the Nitto. There's also
> that issue, a-la-G.P, 'if you're gonna put that much setback in, it
> better be steel'. This post basically took my Quickbeam from an 'off-
> the-rack' feel to custom tailored (I probably should have gotten a 66
> frame, but got a 64 because of inaccurate PBH measurement). I expect
> it to do the same for the other 64cm frame it's going on, and if
> that's the case, it's well worth the high cost (and I expect it to
> last several lifetimes).
>
> The S-84 can be had for $150 (w. shipping) from these guys, who I can
Lee
Jan 14, 2011, 8:35:24 PM1/14/11
to RBW Owners Bunch
Hi all. I've updated my Flickr set of the Berthoud saddle so that it
now includes shots of the saddle mounted on my Quickbeam, with and
without the Berthoud saddlebag. This way, folks can refer to them in
order to judge for themselves whether the plastic aspects of the
saddle are too prominent for their tastes. (Sorry if this has drifted
too far from Riv content.)
http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
Happy weekend, all,
Lee
San Francisco, CA
now includes shots of the saddle mounted on my Quickbeam, with and
without the Berthoud saddlebag. This way, folks can refer to them in
order to judge for themselves whether the plastic aspects of the
saddle are too prominent for their tastes. (Sorry if this has drifted
too far from Riv content.)
http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
Happy weekend, all,
Lee
San Francisco, CA
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
cyclotourist
Jan 16, 2011, 4:10:24 PM1/16/11
to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Follow up with my observatin' on the clamping area. The VO is significantly smaller clamping area @ 28mm end to end. The Nitto has 40mm, Thomson 42mm and an older Campy Chorus a whopping 47mm distance. Either the other manufacturers are seriously overbuilding their clamps, or VO is in for a lot of bad press when rails start a' snappin'.
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