Electric bicycles (Was: Copenhagen wheel)

[Patrick Moore]

I was sorry to hear that the CW is no longer being made. Tho' my contact was solely press releases and enthusiast product reviews, it did seem, to me, to be a very neat and imaginative packaging of a very useful technology.

And this leads me to a question that I've been mulling over for a few years now. Question 1: If you want and electric bicycle, for loaded errand riding with ~30 mile out-and-back range, what is the most cost effective way to do this?

I've thought that, if I ever upgrade to a lighter and better quality ss mountain bike, that the Monocog 29er would make a dandy electric conversion platform. So, Question 2: if one were to choose modification instead of purchase, what is the most long-term cost effective way to make such a conversion?

Or should I just look up plan to motorize a bicycle using a chainsaw motor?

Patrick Moore, who is kidding about the chainsaw, but who really did once see, parked outside a bike shop, a Whizzer in tout motor cycle gang black with ape hanger bars and big wing mirrors. I saw the owner inside. He was wearing a black leather jacket and boots. Not kidding this time!

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Sky Coulter]

I currently have a 59cm Clem L setup w a bionx d500 rear wheel, a 550wh battery and i bought the dealer hardware to have control over things like top speed, breaking torque, etc.  

This setup allows me to commute 25km round trip without worrying about the battery dying on me.  I have it set so it’ll run at 45/hr which uses up more battery. I can count on 30km without conserving battery, and closer to 50km if i use only level 1 (of 4) pedal assist.  

The bionx setup came to me via craigslist w a 60cm sam hillborne attached for 2500 cad.  So if the hillborne is worth 1000-1500, then the bionx kit is 1000-1500.  Which i think is about as good as it gets, especially since neither bike nor bionx kit had seen much use at all (only 160km when i purchased it).  

I think you can see the setup if you follow this link:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CKApVDlFDqi/?igshid=2h7upjeq8t82

On Jan 13, 2021, at 5:32 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



I was sorry to hear that the CW is no longer being made. Tho' my contact was solely press releases and enthusiast product reviews, it did seem, to me, to be a very neat and imaginative packaging of a very useful technology.

And this leads me to a question that I've been mulling over for a few years now. Question 1: If you want and electric bicycle, for loaded errand riding with ~30 mile out-and-back range, what is the most cost effective way to do this?

I've thought that, if I ever upgrade to a lighter and better quality ss mountain bike, that the Monocog 29er would make a dandy electric conversion platform. So, Question 2: if one were to choose modification instead of purchase, what is the most long-term cost effective way to make such a conversion?

Or should I just look up plan to motorize a bicycle using a chainsaw motor?

Patrick Moore, who is kidding about the chainsaw, but who really did once see, parked outside a bike shop, a Whizzer in tout motor cycle gang black with ape hanger bars and big wing mirrors. I saw the owner inside. He was wearing a black leather jacket and boots. Not kidding this time!

<image.png>

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[rlti...@gmail.com]

I went with an option that was definitely not the most cost effective but it is one I would do again now that I’ve been using it for over a year. I went with a Tern GSD S00 e-cargo bike.

The bike takes up about the same amount of room as a normal bike but can carry 400 lbs. It also adjusts to fit nearly any rider so my 5’ 2” wife can ride it by quickly adjusting the saddle and bars. I ike the included panniers but do miss the larger size of my old Xtracycle bags sometimes. I added a front rack to add some cargo carrying capacity.

The Bosch system feels just like a normal bike due to the torque sensor. It just feels like I have Lance’s legs instead of my own. The interesting thing for me is that my average heart rate is the same on the e-bike as it is on my other bikes. I just get more speed out of it.

https://roberttilley.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Tern-GDS-S00-2019/i-XWgxBkQ/A

I added an extra battery to mine and can get a bit over 60 miles using the highest assist level.   At the lowest assist it would be well over 100 miles. One battery would do about half that I believe. I rarely use my car for errands these days. It only gets fired up for fun stuff.

Robert Tilley

San Diego, CA

Sent from my iPhone

On Jan 13, 2021, at 5:33 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



I was sorry to hear that the CW is no longer being made. Tho' my contact was solely press releases and enthusiast product reviews, it did seem, to me, to be a very neat and imaginative packaging of a very useful technology.

And this leads me to a question that I've been mulling over for a few years now. Question 1: If you want and electric bicycle, for loaded errand riding with ~30 mile out-and-back range, what is the most cost effective way to do this?

I've thought that, if I ever upgrade to a lighter and better quality ss mountain bike, that the Monocog 29er would make a dandy electric conversion platform. So, Question 2: if one were to choose modification instead of purchase, what is the most long-term cost effective way to make such a conversion?

Or should I just look up plan to motorize a bicycle using a chainsaw motor?

Patrick Moore, who is kidding about the chainsaw, but who really did once see, parked outside a bike shop, a Whizzer in tout motor cycle gang black with ape hanger bars and big wing mirrors. I saw the owner inside. He was wearing a black leather jacket and boots. Not kidding this time!

<image.png>

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Sky Coulter]

Nice bike!  I’d love the new gsd r14 for me if i was upgrading. I bought my wife a riese and muller load 75 to take our youngest to preschool after getting my ebike off craigslist. She loves it and uses it mosy days...sky

On Jan 13, 2021, at 9:12 PM, rlti...@gmail.com wrote:

I went with an option that was definitely not the most cost effective but it is one I would do again now that I’ve been using it for over a year. I went with a Tern GSD S00 e-cargo bike.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/82F00E5C-C9EE-40EE-A764-D1C8A5C7C88A%40gmail.com.

[Keith Weaver]

I have an XO-3 that I had a shop install a Bafang BBS02 system on several years back. It uses a Revelate 1/2 frame bag to hold the battery just under the top tube, while still allowing me to run a small water bottle in the seat tube cage. The system has plenty of power for me, and has given me a range of almost 40 miles, although I've only run out of battery once.

This is a "mid-drive" system that replaces the crankset and bottom bracket, with the motor sitting just ahead of the bottom bracket. I'd recommend doing a bit of research on mid-drives vs hub motors, the option that will work best for you may depend on the kind terrain you intend to ride on. I've read that hub motors aren't as well suited to long, steep hills as mid-drives.

I went with a shop install because I wanted to have someone to repair it if needed, but if doing it again, I'd probably do it myself and save a lot of money. Bafang kits are available for much less than I paid, most with a battery that mounts to the down tube cage mounts. I might recommend the BBSHD, as it is a bit more robust than my BBS02, and doesn't have the problem with the driveshaft bearing that I ended up repairing myself. 

I will say that my kit is not as "natural" feeling as other ebikes I've tried, because it only has a cadence sensor, no torque sensor. This can result in the motor engaging in a bit of a jerky manner at times. Nonetheless, for retro-fitting an existing bike, I think a mid-drive is a great way to go. Another benefit of my kit is that it includes a throttle. I don't use it often, but it's great to be able to get a burst of speed when trying to get into a left turn lane on a higher-speed street.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/0C0D4BBD-AF33-405D-81D6-235138C346AB%40gmail.com.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks for this description of an add-on alternative. I see that you can buy the kit online for under $400, though I guess that doesn't include the battery, and I guess a couple of hundred more to have the bike shop install it? (Actually, I'd source it through the bike shop too, if possible, to give them more ownership as well as the business.)

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/CAP588ZYVYg-6BCQ8aNvvk1OQmxHNiDVYn8uwrnN4x1OdPhF%2BBg%40mail.gmail.com.

[Joe Bernard]

This is whatcha need for a complete plug-n-play BBSHD kit with a good battery, I built a couple Rivs with it and may do another someday. Gonna run you about $1500, any halfway competent bike mechanic can do it themselves. 

https://lunacycle.com/bafang-bbshd-1000w-middrive-kit/

[Michael Morrissey]

Those conversions are all fine and dandy, but I test rode the Cake Osa, and it is the future. 

https://ridecake.com/en/shop/bikes/osa/osa/

I will be getting one sometime in the next few years for sure. 

Michael

[Patrick Moore]

Gaak! I'll just drive my car, thank you. After all, I drive far less than 500 miles a year in a 15-year-old car, so my carbon traces are far smaller than those of most travelers.

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[Patrick Moore]

Aha; thanks. I will archive this with the rest, for the future. In the future, at least my personal electric future, say 2023-4, I expect ready-to-ride electric bikes will be much cheaper than today, but if they are more than $1500, then adding one of these to my Monocog might be a good option.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/61d2cd50-1b6d-4973-95a3-d3f4a48694edn%40googlegroups.com.

[Takashi]

Forget about chainsaw motor, let alone electric bikes!

Rintendo in Osaka, Japan has made a steam-engine powered bike.

http://rintendo.com/Products/PowerAssist/jokee.htm

I'm skeptical about its cost-efficiency, though.

The website is in Japanese, but I put the description in DeepL Translator, and it did a good translation.

Takashi

[Patrick Moore]

1869! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyw_smJ8VcE

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roper_steam_velocipede

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[masmojo]

I have the Radpower - Rad Wagon

They're only $1,700 base price. Probably a couple hundred more with any accessories you may want. If you don't need a Cargo bike specifically you could go cheaper maybe??

mine is 3rd Gen; they have a new 4th Gen with smaller (but wider) wheels.

https://www.radpowerbikes.com/products/radwagon-electric-cargo-bike

Mine: https://photos.app.goo.gl/EMbugYY5s8y9W3KV7

Blurry picture with a Ridgid bin on the back for groceries: https://photos.app.goo.gl/bThEbwVsT28h4sJRA

There still are kits out there; I've seen one on Ebay that actually is a motor that attaches slightly forward of the bottom bracket and powers the bike there rather than the wheel; I've heard they are good, but I don't know?? 

I think if I was going to convert a bike ; that's the way I'd go.

I am actually a proponent of just getting an actual bike; there are SO many differences other that one having a motor and the other not.  Beefier rims and tires, integrated everything, Lever activated brake lights, more power!!!

Grant mentioned in his Blahg about some rims they found that are actually E-bike rims; that concerns me a little because E-bike rims are not known for being light. in fact they are generally quite heavy!!!!

I had a hard time finding pics of my Ebike generally because to me it's something I don't think to take pictures of, it's a tool that just happens to also be a bike! 

I won't say that it's not attractive in it's own way, but I don't think about it much.

[Nick Payne]

My wife has been suffering from a ganglion/nerve problem in her ankle, which has been limiting her cycling. As she has several bikes, she bought a Switch kit to convert one of her bikes to an ebike with front hub motor. It took me less than an hour to fit front wheel, pedal sensor, and handlebar bracket for the battery, and it's proved a success. We went up a 30km long 1500m vertical ascent today, and although she only used the motor intermittently on the lowest power setting, she was able to do the climb without any of the ankle problems she has been having lately. I just ride up the climb at my pace, when I get a couple of bends ahead, she engages the motor, comes past until she's about 100m ahead, then shifts down and climbs under her own power until I'm again a couple of bends ahead... Using that method used about 80% of the battery to complete the climb.

On flatter routes - some climbing but nothing huge, a 70km ride seems to use around 60% of the battery.

https://www.swytchbike.com/

https://www.cyclist.co.uk/reviews/6026/swytch-universal-ebike-conversion-kit-review

Nick

[Patrick Moore]

Again, thanks for all the suggestions. I fully reserve the right to change my mind again and again and again, but for now, I rather like the simplicity of a motor wheel, and with the Copenhagen wheel gone, the Bionx rear wheel and even more the Swytch front wheel look very appealing; and (from what others have said in this thread) the Swytch might have a longer range than the other wheel motor systems. 

Joe, what is the range of the Bafang system? I can't find range information on the website. I'm much more interested in range than in hotrodding, and I (think I'd) prefer the simplicity of a motorized wheel, but say a consistent 40 mile range at moderate settings would certainly be a plus.

Again, what I have in mind is 30-mile+ round trips to stores I generally drive to, so 40 miles would give comfortable reserve. Perhaps there is no such thing as a motorized wheel system with 40 mile range at the moment?

In any event, right now I think I'd prefer to motorize an existing bike instead of buying an e-bike, because then I'd have something that is perfectly comfortable for real pedaling, and that I could customize to my whims.

Incidentally: For such wheels as the Swytch, how does one manage a dynamo lighting system? I suppose one could hunt down an ancient Sturmey Archer Dynohub (tm), even one with drum brake, tho' of course there is rear triangle width to consider; man, that would weigh as much as the front wheel motor! Seriously, I suppose you'd need to use a bottle or bb roller or one of those new German rim wall dynamos.

[eddietheflay]

Pricey but delicious = Calfee retrofit: https://calfeedesign.com/calfee-ebike-retrofit-service/

[Joe Bernard]

Patrick,

My memory is a little vague now in total distance potential with the BBSHD mid-drive, but I was getting 35 miles with juice left to get home on the lower setting (lower is all you need, that sucker is FAST). 

As pertains to a dynohub, one thing I particularly like about mid-drives is you keep normal hubs on your bike. I never had to do it but I didn't look forward to removing that Copenhagen Wheel on the road to fix a flat, especially with my arthritic hands. It was heavy. 

On Saturday, January 23, 2021 at 8:58:06 AM UTC-8 Patrick Moore wrote:

[J Imler]

I’ve got the bbshd on a Appaloosa frame. I don’t know exact mileage but I think that depends on battery and terrain. I’d think my setup could do 40 miles on a full charge, but like Joe said it’s all relative to your power setting also. I bought a mighty mini chain ring to keep the motor spinning as to not over work it. The build has basically replaced my car except when driving passengers. Zero complaints. I’m considering a phase 4 solar panel trailer.

[J Imler]

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks, Joe and "J"; I'll store this information away for the day I have to decide what to choose. Good to know that at least a few electric assist systems can eke out 40 miles -- it wouldn't be worth my while to get anything that couldn't do that distance.

Joe, good point about fixing flats and about dynamos.

Our terrain is unusual in that if you ride N and S it's very largely flat, and you get hills only E and W: long Eastward (climb from the valley floor to the foothills), steeper and shorter and more rolling Westward. But my errands would be largely N/S.

OTOH, we have winds -- one reason for thinking of something like this. Do winds use up charge the way hills do?

The Monocog with Big Apples and tubes would make a dandy electric assist bike; with road-tread tires I could add real fenders, and I'd add a sturdy rack and a dynamo of some sort. Even with more tire drag and even bottle dynamo drag, I daresay that a few extra watts would make these disappear to the rider.

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[Patrick Moore]

Very interesting.

What fork is that? I think I know what it is, I've just forgotten the name. 

The trail-a-bike reminds me back when I was a young and spry 50-something, and pulled my daughter (but only N/S) in a doublewide child trailer against our headwinds in a 67" fixed gear on an early-edition sport-tourer-model Raleigh Technium; good times. 

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 5:11 PM J Imler <imle...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[J Imler]

Patrick, it’s the Crust Clydesdale cargo fork.

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. 

Does that fork change the handling of the bike in any way that you can easily notice?

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[J Imler]

It does not in my opinion. The ride may have been improved slightly, honest. It’s like a magic carpet ride.

[Patrick Moore]

Excellent; one more data point to store away in the archives. Thanks.

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/30d575e8-4196-40e1-a492-b2ff87d9794an%40googlegroups.com.

[Joe Bernard]

Nah, you won't lose much more range in wind, it's the hills that sap it. But even there with a system this powerful it's negligible, honestly the BBSHD with a good battery is a little ridiculous. It's not a bicycle as we understand them, it's a motorbike you pedal along with. I like them for different and fun, but it's its own thing. 

[Joe Bernard]

Which stands as my disclaimer to the Riv List. I have some experience with this stuff and don't mind answering questions about it, but it's pretty far off topic even when I've posted my own eRiv threads. And will be again if I eventually add a kit to my Susie. These frames were designed to be pedaled without motors and I'm sure Grant would prefer they stay that way. If my custom ever showed up with a motor attached he would probably come to my house and take it back! 😂

[lconley]

Range is also about battery size. The bigger the battery, or multiple batteries, the longer the range - all other things being equal. That is one of the advantages of the mid drive, the range is mostly limited by the size of your wallet. if you want more range, you simply pay for it by buying larger or more batteries, you are not limited by what is built into the wheel. Also the battery weight is not rotating.

Laing

Still playing with his mid-drive