Wald Basket??

[Michael Hechmer]

My daughter wants to buy this basket for her new, small (50) Cheviot.  http://www.modernbike.com/wald-135-grocery-basket-silver

Have any of you tried it?  Whaddaya think?

Michael

[Eric Daume]

I have a black version of that basket. It's OK, but the way it hangs down from the handlebars can cause some interference with brake cables (especially stiffer hydraulic brake hoses), or some types of bars that sweep forward. Nice and deep, though.

Eric

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[Jeff Lesperance]

I used a similar Wald basket - I guess mine was a larger/wider basket model. I found that the bottom struts allowed the basket to sway more than I preferred if the load got a bit on the heavier side, so I contacted Wald and asked for another set of struts, which I added in an attempt to cut down on the sway. The extra struts helped, but still could have been better. For lightweight loads it was fine. I can add a picture showing the extra struts (I added the wood slat bottom - didn't come with the rack)

On Wed, Jun 1, 2016 at 7:33 AM, Michael Hechmer <mhec...@gmail.com> wrote:

--

[David Banzer]

That looks like the same model that Riv is selling as the 'Bosco' basket: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/bskt4.htm
Mounted with the included hardware (struts to fork eyelets and to handlebars) it worked fine for light loads.
If it were me, I'd get a front rack and put one of these on it: http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/bskt.htm
David
Chicago

[Will]

I think if I had a Cheviot with long chainstays I'd do this:

http://www.modernbike.com/wald-582-folding-basket-silver

We had these folders on all of our errand/commuter bikes. They work well. Once you get into front struts, you have problems at public bike racks. The struts won't go into the tire-dimensioned parking slots.

The folders have good capacity and are convenient to use.

On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 6:33:41 AM UTC-5, Michael Hechmer wrote:

[masmojo]

I got the SOMA Lucas small front rack, it's REALLY good, very reasonably priced and fits most bikes; then I removed the stock Wald struts & fashioned some removable brackets to affix it to the rack. (or you can use zip ties!)

[masmojo]

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/masmojo/media/20160131_125134_zpsask2ttqw.jpg.html

[Andrew Patteson]

That's really nicely done, masmojo.  You can also use Gear Ties, though I don't know how they do over the course of years.

I have the same Soma rack and it's a nice, relatively wide base for the basket.

http://s909.photobucket.com/user/inkandsilver/media/1983%20Trek%20600/_MG_1094_zpsahyq86uz.jpg.html

-Andrew in SLC


On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 12:03:12 PM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:

http://smg.photobucket.com/user/masmojo/media/20160131_125134_zpsask2ttqw.jpg.html

[masmojo]

I routinely carry 15 lbs of gear in there with no issues. You can't see them in the picture, but there are wing nuts on the bottom that can be removed to release the basket in a minute or so. I honestly don't think there's much of anything that makes a bike look more dorky then a big bssket, but I guess I just embrace it, because it hasn't come off once since I installed it.

[Bill Lindsay]

I installed that one on one of our office cruisers, and it didn't hold up very long.  The flat parts of the struts bent eventually.  I now strictly ziptie a Wald basket to a good rack.  I run wald baskets on racks on three bikes.  

[Anton Tutter]

Wald baskets are okay, but IMO they are only acceptably stable when modified or used on a solid platform, discarding the stock struts they come with.  And please, please, don't fasten a Wald basket to a rack with zip ties. I know it can work for awhile and many people do it but zip ties inevitably snap from repeated stress.  The best way to secure a Wald, IMO, is to sandwich the basket and rack between large fender washers or an aluminum sheet/plate. I have a largish Wald on my Bike Friday Haul-a-Day. It's bolted to the stock tubular steel rack platform. The platform is made from aluminum diamond tread plate bolted to a tubular "U" shaped rack. I removed the plate and reinstalled it on top of the Wald, essentially sandwiching the Wald in place between the rack frame and the platform. It's held in place by 4 M6 bolts. It's held up really well this way.

Anton

velolumino.com

[Evan Baird]

I've also seen them mounted up with copper wire. I havent tried it myself, but it looks dope.

[masmojo]

I think the difference between Walds normal baskets & Rivendells is the Riv baskets look like they dont have the hangers or struts.

[Anton Tutter]

Right, I think the standard Riv setup is to use zip ties, which they recommend on their website (and which I firmly disagree with).

I've attached Wald baskets using SS wire. This takes more time than zip ties, but is infinitely more reliable (still, good ol' nuts and bolts are best).

Anton

[Stephen Lim]

Pipe clamps also work well in my experience

[Evan E.]

I agree: the medium Wald basket from Riv, affixed to a SOMA Lucas small front rack, is a good setup. As for Michael's original post: About ten years ago I tried the Wald 135 Grocery Basket with the stock struts, and if I loaded the basket with heavy groceries (such as milk), the basket swayed enough on the struts to be a safety hazard.

Evan

[Bill Lindsay]

Zipties are freaking awesome.  I'll stop using zipties when I stop appreciating all inexpensive, elegant, reliable, ingenious inventions.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, June 3, 2016 at 6:57:43 AM UTC-7, Anton Tutter wrote:

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/06/2016 04:46 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Zipties are freaking awesome. I'll stop using zipties when I stop
> appreciating all inexpensive, elegant, reliable, ingenious inventions.
>
>

And they are so very Rivendell. But, some might say they have no place
on an elegant, expensive bicycle, especially as a hack substitute for
something that should have been there properly as a matter of course
(such as fender eyelets, for example); and they're a whole lot more
acceptable when they don't deteriorate and fail due to UV exposure.

[Bill Lindsay]

Steve

My Wald basket is affixed to my Nitto Front rack with 8 orange zip ties.  I'll bet you $100 that in 5 years, it will still be there.  If I deliberately remove the rack just because I feel like it, I pay you $100.  If I sell the bike and/or the rack and/or the basket, I pay you $100.  If I replace one single zip tie, I pay you $100.  If I supply you a photo of that Wald Basket attached to that Nitto rack, with 8 orange zipties still intact, on 6-6-2021, you pay me $100.  It's an easy date to remember, as a date of deep reverence and appreciation to you and all other US veterans who have ever served (spoiler: Steve served, but is not old enough to have stormed the beaches at Normandy).  You know I'm stubborn enough to collect, and I suspect you are just as stubborn as I am. Wanna have that friendly bet?

I realize that lots of people feel that expensive bicycles should only have expensive things on them, and that zipties are not sufficiently expensive.  Some people think an Altus rear derailer isn't expensive enough.  Some people think a Wald basket isn't expensive enough.  That's an aesthetic opinion, and you are entitled to have it.  God knows I'm a snob about many MANY things, so I know snobbery when I see it.  I'm not a snob about zipties, but I understand that some people want to be a snob about zipties.  

Confession time.  I'm a snob about British Racing Green.  I think BRG is the most overused, ugly and mind numbingly boring color possible for a bicycle.  I'm a snob about it.  If you gave me a BRG bicycle, I'd either give it away or take to the painter.  I'm a snob about it, and I'm allowed to be a snob about it.  I realize lots of people love BRG, and they are entitled to love it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Evan Baird]

The Soma rack has zip tie mounting holes. It's been my experience that it's the sliding around that causes zip ties to fail. Of course I usually just put on a crap ton to be safe.

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/06/2016 06:00 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Steve

My Wald basket is affixed to my Nitto Front rack with 8 orange zip ties.  I'll bet you $100 that in 5 years, it will still be there.  If I deliberately remove the rack just because I feel like it, I pay you $100.  If I sell the bike and/or the rack and/or the basket, I pay you $100.  If I replace one single zip tie, I pay you $100.  If I supply you a photo of that Wald Basket attached to that Nitto rack, with 8 orange zipties still intact, on 6-6-2021, you pay me $100.  It's an easy date to remember, as a date of deep reverence and appreciation to you and all other US veterans who have ever served (spoiler: Steve served, but is not old enough to have stormed the beaches at Normandy). 

You're right: I wasn't quite 2 yrs old when Allied forces landed at Normandy.  And apropos of the day, you might want to listen to this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-weBUzQleo   I think every working radio in the United States of America was tuned in to this when it first aired on June 6, 1944.

You know I'm stubborn enough to collect, and I suspect you are just as stubborn as I am. Wanna have that friendly bet?

Certainly not.  You've probably got UV-resistant zip ties, maybe that's why they're orange (a color of zip tie I have never seen).  Many are not UV-resistant, and fail when exposed to sunlight.

I realize that lots of people feel that expensive bicycles should only have expensive things on them, and that zipties are not sufficiently expensive.  Some people think an Altus rear derailer isn't expensive enough.  Some people think a Wald basket isn't expensive enough.  That's an aesthetic opinion, and you are entitled to have it.  God knows I'm a snob about many MANY things, so I know snobbery when I see it.  I'm not a snob about zipties, but I understand that some people want to be a snob about zipties. 

No, a thousand times no, that is absolutely not right.  How bloody expensive is a fender eyelet or rack mount fitting?  Come on - that stuff isn't expensive at all.  But a bicycle meant to take fenders and racks should have fender eyelets and rack mounts.  Period.   This has nothing to do with being expensive, and everything to do with being fully thought out as opposed to half-assed and not finished.   If that is snobbery, then so be it.   The Taylor brothers were constructeurs too, and god knows they were as down to earth working class as it comes (and I have a great reverence for Jack Taylor bicycles).

Confession time.  I'm a snob about British Racing Green.  I think BRG is the most overused, ugly and mind numbingly boring color possible for a bicycle.  I'm a snob about it.  If you gave me a BRG bicycle, I'd either give it away or take to the painter.  I'm a snob about it, and I'm allowed to be a snob about it.  I realize lots of people love BRG, and they are entitled to love it. 

Fairway Green's pretty nice on a bike, though.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 1:56:07 PM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote:

On 06/06/2016 04:46 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Zipties are freaking awesome.  I'll stop using zipties when I stop
> appreciating all inexpensive, elegant, reliable, ingenious inventions.
>
>

And they are so very Rivendell.  But, some might say they have no place
on an elegant, expensive bicycle, especially as a hack substitute for
something that should have been there properly as a matter of course
(such as fender eyelets, for example); and they're a whole lot more
acceptable when they don't deteriorate and fail due to UV exposure.

--

[Bill Lindsay]

Steve retorted:

"No, a thousand times no, that is absolutely not right.  How bloody expensive is a fender eyelet or rack mount fitting?  Come on - that stuff isn't expensive at all.  But a bicycle meant to take fenders and racks should have fender eyelets and rack mounts.  Period.   This has nothing to do with being expensive, and everything to do with being fully thought out as opposed to half-assed and not finished.   If that is snobbery, then so be it.   The Taylor brothers were constructeurs too, and god knows they were as down to earth working class as it comes (and I have a great reverence for Jack Taylor bicycles)."

Stay on topic, Steve.  We can't insist on debating if you change the subject.  The subject, as indicated in the subject line of this very post, has nothing to do with mounting racks or fenders to bicycle frames.  The subject here is about mounting a Wald Basket to a solid front rack.  That's it.  I assert that zip ties are perfectly OK for mounting a Wald Basket to a Nitto Front Rack.  If you are agreeing with me on that point, then great we agree.

If you want to close on your change of subject, I'm willing to do that. 

I agree with you that zipties are insufficient to attach a rack to a bicycle frame.  Anybody who does that is dumb, in my opinion.  Any manufacturer who recommends it is reckless.  

I agree with you that a bike that is designed for fenders should have fender eyelets at the dropouts.  Manufacturers who make bikes without fender eyelets at the dropouts should not recommend installing fenders.  

If you are double-changing the subject off of zipties entirely, and back to your favorite Riv-bashing subject, then I just don't know what to do about that.  Please don't tell me we are getting back on to your favorite Riv-bashing subject AGAIN.....Talk about mind-numbingly boring.  That's even more boring than a dark green bicycle.  

 

[Bill Lindsay]

Steve recommended: 

"And apropos of the day, you might want to listen to this: 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-weBUzQleo   "

For those who don't like clicking links, Steve's link was to a recording of the radio message FDR delivered to the American people on the morning after Operation Overlord had initiated, the bulk of which was a prayer for the brave soldiers and the nation.  I'm very familiar with that message, but it's moving to hear it again.  

[Steve Palincsar]

On 06/06/2016 07:42 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:
> Steve retorted:
>
> "No, a thousand times no, that is absolutely not right. How bloody
> expensive is a fender eyelet or rack mount fitting? Come on - that
> stuff isn't expensive at all. But a bicycle meant to take fenders and
> racks should have fender eyelets and rack mounts. Period. This has
> nothing to do with being expensive, and everything to do with being
> fully thought out as opposed to half-assed and not finished. If that
> is snobbery, then so be it. The Taylor brothers were constructeurs
> too, and god knows they were as down to earth working class as it
> comes (and I have a great reverence for Jack Taylor bicycles)."
>
> Stay on topic, Steve. We can't insist on debating if you change the
> subject. The subject, as indicated in the subject line of this very
> post, has nothing to do with mounting racks or fenders to bicycle
> frames. The subject here is about mounting a Wald Basket to a solid
> front rack. That's it. I assert that zip ties are perfectly OK for
> mounting a Wald Basket to a Nitto Front Rack. If you are agreeing
> with me on that point, then great we agree.

And we do indeed agree, subject to my proviso regard UV resistance.

[Anton Tutter]

Oh boy. 

[Steve Palincsar]

Nothing boring about that bad boy.

[David Hays]

Always love seeing that Mercian Anton.

David

[Bill Lindsay]

EPIC bluff-call, Anton! I gratefully accept your gift of that fine Mercian.....and true to my word I humbly offer it back to you.

Bill

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

What's Steve's favorite Riv-bashing subject?

Sent from my iPhone

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[masmojo]

Two things
First zip ties are brilliant & were it a situation of putting the basket on for several weeks or months even & taking it off again I would fully endorse and condone using them, BUT if it's a basket that'll be on there for 5 years! NO! And I don't think there's anything Rivendellish about it. Quick easy fixes are intended to be temporary in nature like the Bandaid or the rubber band.
Secondly, I notice that very fine Mercian, lacks braze-ons for routing the brake cable!!!! Oh my!!! ;-) but, at least no zip ties!

[masmojo]

Additionally, if others hadn't noticed and I don't think they really highlight it, but I think the difference between the baskets that Rivendell has & the normal Wald baskets is the Rivendell ones are just the basket, no handlebar loops or struts.

[Anton Tutter]

I think Grant must have stock in a Zip Tie manufacturer somewhere...

Anton

[Paul]

I have the large Wald basket from Rivbike tied to my rear rack with about a dozen of these 

http://m.homedepot.com/p/VELCRO-brand-8-in-x-1-2-in-Reusable-Ties-50-Pack-90924/202261940

Paul in Dallas

-------- Original message --------
From: rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com
Date: 6/6/2016 10:45 PM (GMT-06:00)
To: Digest recipients <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [RBW] Digest for rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com - 25 updates in 6 topics

rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com

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Topic digest
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• Zip ties (WAS Re: [RBW] Re: Wald Basket??) - 7 Updates
• Wet and sloppy grocery run! - 6 Updates
• Need info on Bottom Bracket for Biopace Triple - 1 Update
• OT - Help me decide how to spend a day in Sacramento /San Francisco - 1 Update
• OT: Mac OS X to Ubuntu question - 1 Update
• eCLEM - 9 Updates

Zip ties (WAS Re: [RBW] Re: Wald Basket??)

Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 04:42PM -0700

Riv-bashing subject *AGAIN*.....Talk about mind-numbingly boring. That's

even more boring than a dark green bicycle.

Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 04:51PM -0700

Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>: Jun 06 09:42PM -0400

On 06/06/2016 07:42 PM, Bill Lindsay wrote:

> front rack. That's it. I assert that zip ties are perfectly OK for > mounting a Wald Basket to a Nitto Front Rack. If you are agreeing > with me on that point, then great we agree.

And we do indeed agree, subject to my proviso regard UV resistance.

Anton Tutter <atu...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 06:52PM -0700 Oh boy.     <https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8717/17046834881_9f3e63f278_c.jpg>

On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:00:25 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:

Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>: Jun 06 10:05PM -0400

Nothing boring about that bad boy.   On 06/06/2016 09:52 PM, Anton Tutter wrote:

David Hays <bead...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 10:07PM -0400

Always love seeing that Mercian Anton. David

Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 07:49PM -0700

EPIC bluff-call, Anton! I gratefully accept your gift of that fine Mercian.....and true to my word I humbly offer it back to you.   Bill

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Wet and sloppy grocery run!

LeahFoy <jonasa...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 05:00PM -0700 I'm amazed, I tell you. There should be a prize for this! 15 dozen eggs?!? And all arrived home whole? You win!

Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com>: Jun 06 05:12PM -0700 Ha! Yes, eggs are fortunately tougher than we give them credit for. They survived some fairly jouncy roads and singletrack (for eggs). No mandatory scrambled eggs for dinner! Grin.   With abandon, Patrick   On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 6:00:00 PM UTC-6, LeahFoy wrote:

Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>: Jun 06 09:45PM -0400 On 06/06/2016 07:26 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote: > adverse weather conditions (wind, rain, sleet, wet snow, dry snow, > arctic temps. Just regulate with various layers underneath. Good to > go! Grin.   I agree about Ventile. Within its range, it's great - and not just as a rain jacket. Ventile jackets look like perfectly ordinary lightweight jackets, only they happen to be incredibly water resistant. The trouble is, when it's 70 or 80 they're too warm. I imagine on their home turf that's seldom a problem.

Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com>: Jun 06 06:57PM -0700 I agree, Steve. At 70˚F and up if it's raining I'm happy in hat, t-shirt, shorts. What do you wear in rain at 70˚+F?   Round these parts (Colorado mountains) rain falls (pun intended) into to categories:   -- quick, cool, refreshing. Blown in and through and cools you down wonderfully and the sun is out in 10-20 minutes. No jacket required if starting temp is 70+ Even in the mountains with limited view of the sky, these squalls are easy to see and know there is no need to don a jacket. -- Instant shift of seasons from summer to late fall or early spring. No matter the starting temp (90 even) the temp plummets to 40-50 and it can last from 30 minutes to the rest of the day or even several days. This is what ventile is for. Grin.   With abandon, Patrick   On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 7:45:27 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>: Jun 06 10:04PM -0400 On 06/06/2016 09:57 PM, Deacon Patrick wrote: > I agree, Steve. At 70˚F and up if it's raining I'm happy in hat, > t-shirt, shorts. What do you wear in rain at 70˚+F?   O2 Original Rain Jacket. At 70 I unzip the zipper much of the way for ventilation. Light, cheap and pretty decent in warm weather.

Deacon Patrick <lamon...@mac.com>: Jun 06 07:43PM -0700 Ahhh! Yes. I SO wanted those to work when I tried them. As you say: light and cheap. For me, if I looked at a tree branch wrong, they suddenly had uncontrollable ventilation. If I so dared brush against a branch, I left half the jacket behind. Sardonic grin. At which point, if it was 70˚F and above, I'd be back to my t-shirt, hat, and shorts. Grin.   With abandon, Patrick   On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 8:05:02 PM UTC-6, Steve Palincsar wrote:

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Need info on Bottom Bracket for Biopace Triple

"Mike K." <mikeh...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 07:31PM -0700 Hey all, I'm trying to find the appropriate bottom bracket for a Biopace triple, model number FCR-124 or FC-R124, depending on who you ask.   Anyone familiar with it and what length spindle to use?   - Mike

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OT - Help me decide how to spend a day in Sacramento /San Francisco

SeanMac <sean...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 07:09PM -0700 Thank you all so much for your suggestions. What a great group of friends! I managed to pick up a few travel guidebooks at my library the other day. So, with your suggestions in mind, I will spend some time pouring through the books, studying various maps, trying to make some sense of how I should spend my time in the big city.   I appreciate the layering suggestions. I live in Buffalo, NY, so cold weather is not really a concern. However, if I leave Sacramento and its 100 degrees (I really hope that will not be the case), I'll be sure to carry a nice, cozy Ibex top with me.   Speaking of Sacramento, I recently read something about the American River Trail. Anyone familiar with this trail? My hotel is pretty near the trail, and it does appear that bike rentals are available. Perhaps I can manage a ride on the trail while I am in Sacramento.   So far, I'm somewhat sold on the idea of riding the ferry from Oakland to San Francisco. Richard, thanks for your suggestions for things to do in Oakland. When I eventually do get to San Francisco, I do want to do a bit of walking in the heart of the city. David - I like your suggestions. Blue Bottle Coffee at the ferry station along with some walking / eating / shopping sounds like some fun. If time allows, a walk / ride across the Golden Gate Bridge and some time in the park sounds like fun.   At this point, I have moved away from a Giants game. As much as I would like to see the park, I hate to tie up so much time watching a game. However, it is good to know that I can sneak a peak inside the stadium for free. That sounds do-able.   A trip to Rivendell still intrigues me. I'll have to look at the train schedules to see if I can catch a train that will get me to Walnut Creek early in the morning. I don't own a Rivendell. In fact, I've only seen/ridden one once - a test ride of a Rambouillet approximately 9 years ago at a dealership in Burlington Vt. (the Alpine Shop, I believe). I ended up not buying that bike (a mistake, I now realize - I bought a custom frame from Bob Brown Cycles instead). Hence, I would love the chance to see a few frames, get my PBH measured, go for a ride or two and soak up some Riv atmosphere. However, I need to decide how much time I can devote to such a visit.   Another variable is that my seminar group is heading to San Francisco on a Thursday to view the San Francisco Maritime National Park. I don't know how long we will be there, but my schedule says that we will also have some free time in San Francisco that day. Perhaps that trip will allow me to experience a few of the "to do's" on my list, leaving me time to visit Rivendell.   Thank goodness I have some time to think about the possibilities!   Evan - thanks for your suggestion of contacting you / the list again as I get closer to my trip. I'll definitely do that!   Thanks again everyone.   Sean   On Monday, June 6, 2016 at 2:09:18 AM UTC-4, Evan E. wrote:

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OT: Mac OS X to Ubuntu question

Kevin Lindsey <lindse...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 05:14PM -0700 Boy, this is indeed off topic. As an alternative, you might simply try installing "Parallels" for OSX. It runs Ubuntu as a virtual machine while leaving OSX intact and still accessible. I run it on my Mac Air and it works flawlessly. Kevin   On Saturday, June 4, 2016 at 11:46:13 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

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eCLEM

Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com>: May 31 04:28PM -0700 When I first saw the geometry for these I figured that was Riv's plan all along. It makes perfect sense. The ebike commuter market in California is set to grow far in excess of the rest of the bike industry combined, and there bikes are loads more appealing to the target demographics (aka non spandorks).

Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com>: Jun 01 04:03AM -0700 Evan, I'm not sure Grant had much thought of ebikes in the development of CLEM, but I'll buy that the youngsters may have given it some thought. I know Dave rode a bunch of electrics in Taiwan, and plans to get a shop CLEM boosted one of these days. It's definitely a good platform for it, although I think the commuter market is in turnkey ebikes, not kit conversions. I would be shocked if we ever saw a dedicated eRiv..I suspect just reading that sentence would make GP blanch ;-)

Ryan Fleming <ryanmallo...@gmail.com>: Jun 01 11:08AM -0700 Not ready to go there yet, but it's something to consider especially that I'm on the tail end of the boomer generation (born in 1952) where health issues can start...arthritis, heart issues...whatever and it looks like you can turn the assist off. If it prolongs your bike-riding life then I say go for it. I've seen a few electric/gas-powered assist McGivered bikes in Winnipeg. Joe, I think you did a very interesting thing there, actually. Yes, you should ride it to Walnut Creek and show it off!   On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 4:04:43 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:

Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com>: Jun 01 08:33PM -0700 On Wednesday, June 1, 2016 at 11:08:03 AM UTC-7, Ryan Fleming wrote:   > On Sunday, May 22, 2016 at 4:04:43 AM UTC-5, Joe Bernard wrote:I'm a current motorhead (I love auto racing and my FIAT Abarth) and ex motorcycle rider, so this clicks several boxes for me. I don't consider eCLEM a replacement for my non-assist bikes; it's kind of a different thing, like a really light, low-power motorbike you can pedal. > I know Grant had no intention of accomplishing it, but his long-chainstay design and stable handling is a fabulous platform for electric assist. I did a very hilly ride today, mostly with the assist at low levels so I was still doing some of the work, and it was an absurd amount of fun. > I'm not here to convert anyone to electric, I'm just showing it because it's on my Riv, and this is where people show their Rivs. Am I the first to try it? I know Dave at RBW intends to do one eventually, but I don't think he's gotten to it yet. I should ride it to Walnut Creek and show him!   Here's a new pic from my Two Bridges ride through Vallejo/Benicia/Martinez/Crockett today. New Nitto rack from Riv; Platrack and whatever that bag is called from Franklyn. Thanks, Franklyn!

Evan Baird <vanst...@gmail.com>: Jun 02 02:30PM -0700 For the record, I'm keeping it all organic until my shitty joints finally crap out.

Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>: Jun 02 05:39PM -0400 On 06/02/2016 05:30 PM, Evan Baird wrote: > For the record, I'm keeping it all organic until my shitty joints finally crap out.   Even when they do, prosthetics don't require electric powered bicycles (having half an artificial knee I can speak with personal knowledge on this subject). Actually most everyone I know using e-bikes has either blocked coronary arteries or a heart damaged by an MI. That could just be the demographic I hang out with, though...

Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com>: Jun 02 04:10PM -0700 To be clear - I'm not sure it is anymore in this long thread - my interest in ebikes is primarily because they're fun. Yes it makes my big hill easier to climb, but I didn't buy my first electric for any other reason than I found one cheap on Craigslist in my area, and thought it would be interesting to try. It turned out to be WAY more fun than I anticipated, which is how we got to eCLEM. I can still climb the hill on my non-asist bikes, and sometimes still do. Sometimes I don't!

David Person <cycli...@gmail.com>: Jun 02 04:46PM -0700 Very cool Joe.

Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com>: Jun 06 05:01PM -0700 Someone mentioned I would need fatter tires (Patrick Moore?), and I blew it off with "later after the skinny slicks wear out..I'll be fine." Wrong! I greatly underestimated how harsh the ride would be on a now-heavy bicycle capable of running a consistent 20mph. Sheesh! I have Continental "Traffic II" 2.1-inch tires on the way.

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[Philip Kim]

Same. I've used zipties for years and lugged all my groceries two and from. Anywhere around 20-30 pounds. No problems. I believe the same zipties have been on there for two years now. I use a clear kind that is very thick and long. I mount them the way Rivendell suggests with the double 8 figure style looping.

I don't see what the fuss is. If you maintain your bike, it takes just a few seconds to look over your zipties, and if they feel weak or you see the plastic thinning out, then just cut them and put on a new set. Takes less than 5 minutes.

If you want to spend the time and money on copper/ss wiring, all the more power to you.

I can't find it anymore, but I remember a lister posted his wald basket modification so he could sort of "clip in" the basket and take it off the rack whenever he pleased. Now that, I would take the time to make.

[Paul]

Apologies for not deleting the digest portion of my post.

My bad.

Anyway to delete the whole thing?

Those velcro wraps have proven to work very well for me for about two years or a bit over now and sometimes I load it pretty heavy

in the 30 pound range.

Again , sorry about the digest mode screw up.

[Bill Lindsay]

I retract that comment.  Steve makes several truthful, honest and objective observations about Rivendell Bicycles.  He makes them repeatedly.  I don't know which one is his favorite.  I don't even know which one he recounts most often.  In my view, his top 5 most common truthful and accurate, objective observations about Rivendell are:

1.  Rivendells use OS tubing

2.  Rivendells have high trail and high flop AND Rivendell Bicycle Works also recommends and sells cargo carrying products intended for the front of bicycles

3.  Rivendell bicycles have zero extra purpose-built features to manage dynamo wiring AND Rivendell Bicycle Works also recommends and sells dynamo lighting

4.  One Atlantis Steve saw needed a 1" spacer at the chainstay bridge to achieve acceptable fender line.  Rivendell Bicycle Works also recommends and sells fenders

5.  Rivendell sells expensive bicycles AND Rivendell's BLUG celebrates inexpensive solutions to various problems

Those are 5 objective facts that nobody could honestly dispute.  Steve tends to repeat those facts honestly and objectively.  I often find the conclusions Steve draws from those objective facts ... ungenerous.  Calling it Riv-bashing is overstating my opinion somewhat.  I initially thought Steve was getting at #5 with his anti-zip-tie stuff.  I think it is snobbish to dismiss inexpensive solutions purely because they are inexpensive.  There's another message board, called iBob, that celebrates inexpensive and effective solutions to problems.  Ironically, Steve is a moderator on that board.  That irony has stricken me for several years now.  The topic I feared he was heading towards is #4.  Now, I actually think he might have been taking us towards #3.  Rhetorically, he has his patterns, and I'm one who does not like to be rhetorically 'herded', so I tried to anticipate.  

Please, everybody, understand that I like Steve very much, and respect him a great deal.  I think he's kind of grouchy about certain things, and he and I exchange somewhere between 10 and 20 personal emails a year, and probably 3/4 of them are pleasant.  I think he sometimes unnecessarily draws ungenerous conclusions about Rivendell Bicycle Works based on his true and correct observations.  We debate because he bases everything on facts.  I only take issue with the conclusions he draws from those facts.  When I'm being ungenerous to Steve, I call it Riv-bashing.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bill Lindsay]

Masmojo,

You are entitled to not-use zipties whenever you choose to not-use them.  To paraphrase Yogi Berra:  "If people don't want to use zipties, nobody's going to stop them".  Link to original Yogi Berra quote

The place you or Anton lose me is when you tell other people to stop using something that they like using.  Maybe you and Anton just didn't mean what you said, but when you said "I don't condone it" and Anton said "please please don't use zipties", that's where I politely and respectfully recommend that you mind your own business.  On these boards, it's perfectly fine to say that you use something and why you like it.  It's perfectly fine to say why you don't use something.  It's fine to say "I don't recommend using such and such and here's why".  It's fine to say "I won't use that" and not give any reason.  But, when you tell people that you don't condone me using something, or when Anton begs me to stop using something that I like, I say "stay in your lane".  I will use what I like.  If you want to educate me about things that I'm overlooking because you want me to change my mind about zipties, then by all means go ahead and educate me.  I reject the assertion that zipties are solely intended for temporary applications.  People use zipties for cable management on their solar panels for 20 years plus.  They don't die from UV, they don't fail, and that's not temporary.  If your only reason is you think zipties on a Rivendell is a lowbrow hack, I already know about that reason.  If you want to recommend another way for me to attach my Wald Basket to my Nitto Rack that is cheaper, lighter, stronger, easier to install, easier to remove and similarly recyclable, then by all means, educate me.  I'm not receptive to people telling me to stop using a product with no compelling reason.   

[Mark in Beacon]

Wow, who knew Wald basket attachment methods could be so passionately debated. This is the most exciting part of my day so far!

Bill, I don't think anyone commented with the idea of seriously telling you what to do. I think it's just a way of writing or talking about a position somebody might have a strong opinion about. If they were in fact trying to zealously convert you over to the non-zip world, they are indeed foolhardy!

In terms of UV problems, I came across a lifetime supply of "Fence Ties" at a garage sale. They are made by Tenax, are bright green, and resist UV rays, probably long enough for Bill to win his bet and then some. I suspect they would go well with BRG...

 As far as stress breakage, I think with enough points of attachment, and pulling tight, using the corners so they have nowhere to wiggle or slide, it will be fine 98.76 percent of the time. But still, that stainless steel wire wrap is tres cool!

I do think how a man or woman chooses to attach things to their bicycle in some way speaks to their personality. Although, as Freud (or was it Yogi?) once said, sometimes a zip tie is just a zip tie. But I draw the line at zip-tying racks.

[Will]

I dunno Bill... and I've always wondered why Riv advocates zip-ties on baskets. They are so dead set that carbon forks are bad because of the safety thing.

It seems to me that if your zip ties fail and you dump a basket of stuff into your wheel, or your basket connection fails and that interfers with your steering control at speed... well I dunno, it seems inconsistant to me. If a steel fork is necessary, well... so is a bullet proof basket connection.

Consider the level of vibration the zip ties must mitigate. Clearly there is an opportunity for failure.

As for Anton and Masmojo.... GP has a whole slew of things he does not condone... skinny tires, carbon anything, big ring chainwheels, undignified paint schemes, short chainstays, low spoke wheels, low trail front ends, etc.... just saying...   :-)

[Joe Bernard]

I'm late to this thread, and quite amused by it. It has the ring of many of my political discussions with opposite-party friends on Twitter. "I respectfully disagree in spite of how wrong you are how are the kids good day sir." ;-)

[masmojo]

Yeah, people use zip ties for all kinds of things and I continue to condone that practice ( oh crap I did it again!). Actually, Bill I used that language intentionally, because I thought it humorous. As if my condoning anything meant squat to anybody which I am sure it doesn't! My sense of humor is rather dry & droll at the same time, sadly.
Thay said zip ties are a cheap hack, always have been & always will be. No harm in that, but I personally feel thats not acceptable to me as a long term solution, especially in holding on a basket for numerous years. Now, maybe you are using zip ties as a sort of camouflage!? Making the bike look trashy by festooning it with zip ties, pieces of twine, a copious number of frame stickers, etc. can be a very effective theft deterrent; in which case I applaud the individuals ingenuity! But, at the end of the day it seems like antithema or insult to do this to a very beautiful & expensive bike.

[Bill Lindsay]

Will

Thanks for that response.  I use 8 zipties to attach my basket to my rack.  If one of them failed, I'd see it.  It's right there in front of my face.  It would take all 8 failing to fall off my rack.  I'm not worried about it, but I do pay attention to it.  If one breaks and I replace it, I promise I will report about it.  :-)  I also run an Irish strap around the tombstone and basket and my handlebar, a cheap hack safety recommendation I picked up from the BLUG, and from multiple Riv employees.   You can kind of see it here:

Strapped

I agree that maybe Anton and Masmojo both didn't mean what they said when they told me to stop using zipties.  Grant never says "stop using your carbon fork" or "stop using your carbon bicycle" or "stop using skinny tires".  He only gives reasons why he thinks you shouldn't use those products.  If you don't think they are valid reasons you won't be convinced.  If you do think they are valid reasons, you will be convinced.  

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo

I had a feeling you didn't mean it.  I think it's great to hand out approval liberally.  It's the disapproval that you should be really careful with.  If you meant it as a joke, I accept that.  

I agree that my Joe Appaloosa was very expensive and 8 zipties are very inexpensive.  I understand the opinion that the cost of 8 zipties is too low to deserve being places on a Joe Appaloosa.  It makes me want to go into business artisinally curating zipties, and selling them for $3 apiece.  Then it will be sufficiently expensive to deserve placement on a $3000 bicycle.  I understand the opinion that expensive bikes shouldn't have any inexpensive things on them.  I respectfully disagree with that opinion.  If the features are appropriate, the cost is what it is.  I'll pay a LOT for the right features, and I'll pay a little if cheap parts have the right features.  

Bill

[Steve Palincsar]

Bill, I think the issue is that because they deteriorate with exposure to the elements and because a failure of a loaded rack or basket could conceivably land you in deep kimshie, zip ties which may be perfectly satisfactory for a quick temporary expedient solution may be an inappropriate long-term solution.   That's what I've said and that's what's quoted down below.  Once again, it has nothing to do with whether zip ties are expensive or not; if they were artisinally curated three bucks each zip ties then in my opinion for whatever that's worth they would cease to be a "cheap" hack, but would certainly continue to be a hack. 

--

[Joe Bernard]

Riv specifically states that you need to use a bunch of zip-ties on a basket. I think the odds of enough of them failing at the same time to cause basket spillage are very low unless you're bombing down a ski run at Northstar with a basketed Rivbike. Don't do that.

[Bill Lindsay]

Since they last for >20 years on the roof, I trust they will outlive me on a bike that will spend 99% of it's life indoors.  I promise if one of the 8 fails for any reason, I will let the group know.  If they failed with anything like the regularity you seem to suspect, I would stop using them.  It's 17 months now.  

[Anton Tutter]

Bill,

You interpreted my post  ("please, please don't use zip-ties") as being directed toward you since you posted about using zip-ties, when in fact it was directed at the original poster, who is/was (maybe not now after this debate?) asking about a Wald basket for his daughter's bike. The "please, please don't" was simply rhetoric for "I don't recommend", but again, and more importantly, it was directed at the OP, not you. Whether or not you had posted your zip-tie comment before I posted in this thread, I would have made the same comment against using zip-ties. I know you to make sound decisions regarding the build details of your own bikes, but that doesn't mean I won't disagree, especially when an inquiry is made that invites suggestions.

Anton

[Steve Palincsar]

How to choose the right cable tie?

UV and weather resistant cable ties
All polymers including polyamides (nylons) used for the production of cable ties are sensitive to UV radiation. The most common additive used for protecting polyamides from UV radiation is carbon powder commonly known as “carbon black”. Standard natural coloured cable ties have low resistance to UV radiation and therefore are not suggested for outdoor applications.

Black cable ties are always manufactured with additional “carbon black”. As a result, they have improved weather and UV resistance and are better suited for outdoor applications and are approved against ISO 4892 for 150 hours (approx. 3 years) of QUV-B radiation exposure.

For long term exposure to extreme weather conditions and UV, weather resistant cable ties should be used. The weather resistant cable ties are made with compounds that include special additives to provide extra UV and weather resistance are approved against ISO 4892 for 600 hours (approx. 10 years) of QUV-B radiation exposure.

https://www.pmgcompanyonline.com/products/other-products/cable-tie-selection/

When it comes to zip ties, YMMV.  Choose wisely.

--

[Anton Tutter]

And another thing about zip-ties, Bill, is that although you may be well literate in the differing standards that zip-ties may be manufactured to, the average consumer may not be. There are thousands of flavors of zip-ties, some great for attaching Wals baskets, some completely inappropriate, and most people would be none the wiser if they were told to "just use zip-ties".

Years ago, I attached a Wald basket with whatever zip-ties I had laying around. Some of them cracked within a year. Some time after that, I saw the packaging they had come in, laying in a bin in my workshop, and sure enough, it said for indoor use only.

Anton

[Bill Lindsay]

Anton

I get that, and I accept that you weren't telling people what to do, but only strongly recommending.  It does surprise me, coming from you, just from a rational perspective.  I feel like if I told you I had invented a method to mount a basket to a rack that cost nothing, weighed nothing, took 10 seconds to install and 2 seconds to remove, was flexible enough for myriad orientations, was stronger than the basket itself, can't fail catastrophically, lasted forever and used recyclable materials, I think you would say "wow!  tell me about it!"  You dismiss my invention for one of two reasons.  Either you think I'm wrong about my representation of the list of features, or you just don't like it because it's zipties.  Both are OK opinions for you to have.  If I'm wrong about the feature list, I guess I'd like to learn why I'm wrong.  If it's opinion because it's a cheap hack, then there's nothing to discuss.  

Bill

[Bill Lindsay]

Anton reported:

"Years ago, I attached a Wald basket with whatever zip-ties I had laying around. Some of them cracked within a year. Some time after that, I saw the packaging they had come in, laying in a bin in my workshop, and sure enough, it said for indoor use only."

That is a perfectly valid reason to stop using zipties.  If that was my experience I would possibly stop using zipties.  If it was a universal fact that all zipties crack within a year, I would probably never use zipties in the first place.  

Bill

[Steve Palincsar]

Case closed.

[Bill Lindsay]

Without question, I enthusiastically and emphatically recommend that IF you use zipties to mount your Wald Basket to your solid bicycle rack, that you should use several of them (like 8 or so).  If any one of them breaks for any reason whatsoever, please please replace them all.  If one failed, it might have failed because the plastic is degraded, and all of them might be on their way to breaking.  Zipties are cheap enough that you can afford to be safe.  If you are freaked out by this possibility, maybe zipties are not the solution for you.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark in Beacon]

So far I am aware of zero accidents caused by catastrophic zip-tie failures. Any anecdotal evidence out there on RBW? Whereas there is evidence of a carbon fork or two breaking bad. For zips to work as an attachment device for something like a basket to a rack, you need a minimum of four attachment points, and more is better (which I believe Riv advocates). As Bill points out, the chances of them all letting go at once are slim. They are plastic and do have what some might consider an element of cheese to them, no doubt. You're either good with that, or not. But I don't think you can really make a safety argument against zip ties applied with even minimal intelligence--even ones that, unlike the fencing zips I sometimes use, are not labeled UV resistant.

[Mark in Beacon]

Cross-posted with Anton's ziptastrophe story. Still, not a catastrophic failure of the full zip tie system.

[Will]

I guess it's my experience delivering newspapers for several years via bike-and-Wald-basket that informs my opinion. I cringe when I see those little bitty racks supporting a basket that extends 12" on either side of the support foundation. My suspicion is that Wald would never endorse zipties. They want big struts attached at the basket perimeter to the axle where weight load is most stable.

I also agree that a failure of 8-10-12 zipties is remote, but having been through the endo experience twice (landing on head), once from glue failure on a tubular, once from stick in fender,  I have learned fear. :-)

My comfort level is: basket attached to porteur rack.

[Patrick Moore]

To hell with zip ties! I disapprove of baskets on Rivendells!

Patrick Moore, with a large lump in his left cheek. (But I would never put a wire basket on one of my Rivendells.)

[Bill Lindsay]

Well played.  You missed the opportunity to add "The only cheap hacks permitted on Rivendells are done with a dremel!"

;-)

[Patrick Moore]

Dremel be damned. A hammer, my good man, and an expensive axe.

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[masmojo]

LOL, thanks for having my back there Steve! It really matters little what the zip ties actually cost, if they were gold plated they would still look bogged together. And my comments are not focused on any particular individual, just everyone out there on the interwebs. JMHO, but if I am riding a ratty old Schwinn or whatever, then zip tie away! But, I paid a considerable amount of coin on a brand new Rivendell, I can't bring myself to trash it out with zip ties, I prefer something a little more elegant. My solution although labor intensive was only marginally more expensive because I used Stainless steel hardware, if I'd have used inexpensive galvanized hardware it would not have cost me much different than 8 zip ties & it looks so much better.

[Tim Butterfield]

Another option for zip ties may be to use metal.  Something like this may work:

http://www.amazon.com/Stainless-Steel-Cable-Ties-pieces/dp/B00666CYS8

After getting it snugged, you can use the Dremel to cut off the extra or to cut the tie for removal.

If going that route, it may be wise to put a piece of tape around the rack and/or basket to protect against vibrations wearing on the finish.

Tim

[Bill Lindsay]

There's nothing wrong with feeling that way.  No doubt there are plenty of people who think putting a $20 Wald Basket on a $200 Nitto Rack that's mounted on a $3000 Rivendell bicycle is similarly 'trashing it out'.  Trash is in the eye of the beholder.  

[John Phillips]

No philosophical problem with zip-ties here, but my zip-ties fail if I wrap them round in the figure-8 wrap. One 1-2 months old & they just pop off. This doesn't happen if I just wrap it once, zip it & trim it.

But I've become disenchanted with the whole front-basket-floppy-thing. Now my Mark's Rack just holds my fender & Edelux.

John

[Justin August]

What I'm reading is that when I have a kid I can put it in the basket on my Saluki as long as the zip ties holding it on are black and UV resistant. Thanks STEVE and WILLIAM for this advice on the internet!!

-Justin, tongue firmly in cheek

[Jeff Lesperance]

On Tue, Jun 7, 2016 at 5:02 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

Dremel be damned. A hammer, my good man, and an expensive axe.

Finally... a good reason to buy a Gransfors Bruk hatchet.... think they are useful for removing zip ties too?

[Mark in Beacon]

Not sure how "trashed out" zip ties really are, visually speaking. Two examples:

First, I used a couple green "fence ties" on my Kuwahara, to keep my Baggins from moving too much on the rack. I zipped it, and was about to trim, when I noticed it hit the tire in such a way as to remind me of a tire saver. So for the heck of it, I left it long. Now it doesn't hit the tire any more, so I guess I should give it a clipping. (This was fairly recent, the bag occasionally gets moved around.)

Second, I used some zips for attaching a wire basket (brand unknown) to a Surly 8-Pack. Obviously, aesthete that I am, I went to my stash of black zt's, to match the colorway of my Clementine. I find them hard to notice even when the basket it empty, which it often is not. In the case of the Baggins/green zips, if I were a normal person and trimmed them, they would be unseen.

Wherein I Go On Some More About Zip Ties In the Scheme of Things

In the used furniture dealer business, there is something known as a "frank repair." (Don't google unless you need your cars or shoes fixed by a guy named Frank.) This refers to a repair done simply to get the thing useable again--a drywall screw in a chair leg, or a piece of duct tape on a vinyl chair. Older examples sometimes had a real charm, though, and were often left alone--maybe something like a chair leg splinted with baling wire. I think, although zipping a basket is not technically a repair, it is done in a similar spirit--hey, this works just fine, no need to fuss too much--let's go ride!

I don't look at Rivendells as artisanal, or fancy-pants. They are expensive in terms of what the average citizen would expect to pay for a bicycle, but that is because they cost that much to make a long-lasting, beautiful, useful machine and still make a living and pay people decently. The fact that the owner wraps his bikes in string or puts stickers on fenders or lets handlebar tape get ratty or uses zip ties to hold on a basket is, to me, consistent with the company's overall approach to bicycles, not contradictory. Though I certainly understand those who want to keep their machines on the classy side of the street. Like I said, it's a personality thing.

[Evan E.]

My Wald basket (from Riv) is attached to my Soma rack with zip ties. Four of them are black and stout. Four of them are white and of medium heft. They've been there for nine months. I commute five days a week and park my bike outdoors, albeit in the shade. I can neither see nor feel any degradation of the zip ties so far. But if one or more should break, I, like Bill, will report it to the list in the interest of science and safety. Then I might buy a bag of those stainless steel zip ties that Tim found!

But what I really want to know is: Bill, are standard zip ties actually recyclable? The zip ties that I've seen are nylon, and my curbside-recycling-collection people do not mention nylon as an acceptable material. Please advise.

Evan overthinking zip ties Elliot in San Francisco, CA

 

[Mark in Beacon]

One definition of modern, industrialized humans (somewhere along the trajectory down).

[Anton Tutter]

I put stickers on my fenders and don't consider them in the same aesthetic vein as zip ties at all.

Anton

[kielsun]

I agree with Bill here on all counts:

1. Personal preference for/against zip ties is what it is--personal. 

2. The possibility of more than one zip tie failing at a time is extremely unlikely, therefore making the safety argument more or less null and void. Aesthetics is the root here.

And so, I'll add something else to this perhaps already overwrought conversation:

How often do you (or would you) actually lay eyes on the zip ties (rhyme intended)? If they're visible it means the basket isn't being used much, which in turn could mean that the basket might not be necessary at all. I should probably cut (zip) ties and throw my basket in the closet this afternoon--but then again, the need for a basket isn't always easy foreseeable, so utility trumps efficiency for me.

Bob

[Nick Ybarra]

Just thought I'd throw in my experience.  I've been using zip ties to secure front baskets to front racks on my bikes for a number of years because one time I bought 400 zip ties at the hardware store, and I'd really like to use them all before I kick the bucket.  I don't usually put anything that heavy in the baskets, but sometimes I do (camp fire logs, for instance).  One time I was getting on my bicycle, and I noticed one of the zip ties attaching my basket to its rack had broken, so I reached into my saddle bag and pulled out a new one and secured it where the old one had been.  That was roughly a year and a half ago, if memory serves.  I always carry a few extra zip ties in my saddle bags because they weigh nothing and they've proven super useful over the years for fixing random roadside mishaps and getting me or a friend home without having to call for motorized help.  And again, I've still got more than 300 zip ties to put to use.  The clock is ticking!

[masmojo]

Anton, lets not go off on a tangent here, there's a huge difference between one or a few stickers tastefully applied and a whole bunch of them randomly covering almost every available space. I recall somewhere a picture of someone's orange Cheviot (Keven ?) Literally, plastered with stickers, it looked terrible, but I think that was rather the point! Urban camouflage! Which although disconcerting is understandable. A bunch of zip ties could certainly add to this esthetic.
I know Grant loves low tech, beusage,patina, etc., but in my experience it should be earned & come by honestly. Very few people can fake it convincingly and why would you really want to!? But, then I don't like pre washed jeans either; why would I buy jeans that are partially worn out already? Hmmmm, maybe there's a market for pre used bikes!? Buy a bike use it & sell for more money! I like it!

[Mark in Beacon]

Anybody with the fastidiousness necessary to build the lights and do the wiring you do is obviously not in the same bumper sticker league as the average schlubby bear. In other words, I hereby disqualify your tasteful, nicely centered, small little sticker. Nice try though.

[Bill Lindsay]

I have one bike that has a VeloLumino sitcker on it.  That bike features two ingenious VeloLumino products.  That bike has no zip ties on it.  

[Bill Lindsay]

Bob asked:

"How often do you (or would you) actually lay eyes on the zip ties (rhyme intended)? If they're visible it means the basket isn't being used much, which in turn could mean that the basket might not be necessary at all"

Twice per ride if the basket is being used.  Continuously if the basket is not being used on that ride.  

If I carry stuff in my basket, 99% of the time the stuff goes into my ShopSack bag, and then my ShopSack bag goes into the basket.  When I get where I'm going, the ShopSack bag comes out of the basket and I park my bike.  So, I'm looking at the basket and the 8 orange zip ties once when I load it and once when I unload it.  The 1% of the time I'm not using my ShopSack bag, it's a big singular item going in the basket, like a 12-pack.  Still I see the 8 zipties twice per ride.  

If I leave the basket empty for a ride, I see the 8 orange zip ties continuously.  They are right there in front of me.  

I think Bob's comment makes perfect sense if somebody was using their basket to continuously carry cargo that is 'never' unloaded from the bike, like a toolkit or a first aid kit or emergency rainclothes, etc.  If you permenantly cover the zipties with cargo that is never unloaded, you lose the chance to see failing zip ties.  If that's your use-case, then you'd either have to deliberately look at them, like at the same time you do your regular periodic safety check of your QR skewers and your brakes.  

Bill Lindsay

[Brian Campbell]

Well I think there may be a market for a Nitto derived, Wald basket attaching system. Shiny, expensive and over-engineered of course! If not Nitto, perhaps Velo Lumino? ;-) I have my medium Wald  basket, zip tied to a  Nitto rack but remove the entire rack when I don't want to use or need to use the basket.  The whole system works fine by because I NEED to spend lots of dollars on bike bits and bobs, someone had better hurry up and manufacture one already! The cash is burning a hole in my paypal account.....

[Daniel D.]

I saw some carbon fiber zip ties at home depot...

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Thank God for this post. I was deathly afraid the thread was expiring....

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Daniel D. <dddo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw some carbon fiber zip ties at home depot...

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[Mark in Beacon]

When it does,,,
RIP
ZIP

On Wednesday, June 8, 2016 at 7:17:37 PM UTC-4, Pudge wrote:

Thank God for this post. I was deathly afraid the thread was expiring....

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 8, 2016, at 7:10 PM, Daniel D. <dddo...@gmail.com> wrote:

I saw some carbon fiber zip ties at home depot...

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[Garth]

....... and once again and still undefeated..... The Debate for the win ! Ahahahaahahahahahahahahahha !

[Anton Tutter]

Thank God. ;-)

[Bill Lindsay]

Even though I ignore Anton's disapproval, I celebrate his approval.  ;-)

Just for perspective, Anton can cringe when he sees a ziptie on a <airquotes>nice bike</airquotes> if he wants to cringe.  On the other hand, Anton enthusiastically endorses the inventive and discreetly executed method of gluing wire guides onto a bicycle, fender or rack.  I bet there are people out there who would cringe at the act of gluing stuff onto your bike.  They can cringe if they want.  Anton obviously has a justification for why zipties are a lowbrow hack and why glue is not a lowbrow hack, but he doesn't need to have a justification.  Each individual can dismiss an option if they want to dismiss it.  Alternatively, if you want, you can include all options.  If somebody wants to consider an option only for bikes of a certain price range or level of niceness, that's fine, too.  I think it's unfortunate when a personal bias causes you to tell somebody else that their bike looks terrible or trashed out, but if you can't help it, then you can't help it.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Brian Campbell]

I am pro glue and anti zip tie, when it comes to wires on a bike. I am pro zip tie when it comes to attaching a Wald basket to a Nitto rack. I do realize that I probably best represent what is wrong with this country today....;-)

[masmojo]

Anti zip tie, but oddly the idea of gluing wires is somehow appealing!?

[Anton Tutter]

I'm a complicated guy, what can I say...

[Anton Tutter]

Actually, 

The glue workaround is something I enthusiastically endorse *when* there is no better method available for a particular bike. If a bike were built for wiring, I would not endorse gluing the wires. The glue is the most elegant solution I can think of when there is no better way. 

There is no glue on my L'Avecaise, because it was designed for wires. But there is glue on my Rawland, because it wasn't designed for wires. If you extend my reasoning to Wald baskets, most often there is another way besides zip-ties to ensure a sturdy connection. If there weren't, I'd endorse zip ties.

Anton

[Bill Lindsay]

Anton insisted on prolonging the rhetorical exercise with:

"If you extend my reasoning to Wald baskets, most often there is another way besides zip-ties to ensure a sturdy connection."

If your alternative is wire wrapping, then:

Your solution costs more than zipties (but we're first worlders who don't care about cost)

Your solution is heavier than zipties (but we're not weight weenies)

Your solution takes 100x longer to install than zipties (but we spend lots of our free time on time sink projects so we don't mind)

Your solution takes 10x longer to remove than zipties (ditto)

Your solution is stronger than the basket itself, as are zipties (if we tested your wires would hold more load than 8 zipties, but the basket and the rack would fail first)

Your solution will outlive you, as zipties can (you saw zipties crack in under a year, I have not)

Your solution cannot fail catastrophically, just like 8 zipties

You think 8 zipties looks ugly and trashy.  I think wire lashing looks ugly and trashy.  

The gap is entirely aesthetic, and that's OK.  Ugly is in the eye of the beholder.  Lots of people think twine is ugly.  Lots of people hate all forms of adhesive tape on bicycles.  To each his own.  

Bill

[Jeff Lesperance]

What's the opinion on stainless still ties? 

I picked up a packet of these at the big box hardware store and used 'em to attach stuff to my bike, but not a basket, yet.

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[Steve Palincsar]

I'll bet they won't deteriorate from UV...

[Shoji Takahashi]

Just to resurrect the zip tie thread: the current BQ has a nice story of a ride from Cholula to Mexico City featuring a Firefly "Enduro All Road". Beautiful photos of Mexico, and nice studio photos of the Firefly bike-- featuring five or so black zip ties. 

This being a $8,900 bike (complete with low-rider rack, but no basket!), it was designed for zip ties given the top-tube braze-ons. (Are they called braze ons if they're welded?)

Here's a pic from Firefly's flickr. https://www.flickr.com/photos/fireflybicycles/24544578021/in/album-72157663986789435/

shoji

[Patrick Moore]

A tangent to the tangent: My Fargo had such "braze ons" for zip ties to hold the full-length disk brake housings in place. Effective.

But! Even better, what Chauncey Matthews put onto the fork to keep the dynamo power wire in place -- the K-Like comes with the wire already permanently attached to plug and to lamp. My idea, his craftsman ship. No problems loosing the attachments after considerable rough dirt.

[Hoffsta]

I saw reference to Bill Lindsay’s “chopped” Wald basket in this thread, however the links and Flickr images don’t seem to take me anywhere in 2018. Bill, or anyone else, can you repost some pics of this setup? My partner’s new bike doesn’t have much room for a basket between her hoods and I’d like to try this. Thanks!

[Bill Lindsay]

Trying to paste a link in iPhone. We’ll see if this works

https://flic.kr/p/qXXDbM

PM me if you like

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca

In the argument above I bet money that my zip ties would be intact for a long time. They are still rock solid for what it’s worth.

[Reed Kennedy]

On Sat, Sep 22, 2018 at 6:08 AM Bill Lindsay <tape...@gmail.com> wrote:

In the argument above I bet money that my zip ties would be intact for a long time. They are still rock solid for what it’s worth.

I also zip tie basket to my racks. Sadly haven’t found them to work in perpetuity, it does eventually break. Specifically, the basket wires eventually break near the ties. I’ve also had some of the basket welds fail. 

I wish the basket would last as long as the zip ties!

Best,

Reed

[Hoffsta]

Haha! Bill, that’s a killer hack and I’m gonna try it! Thanks