Some refinements on the Platypus: IRD Wayback Seat Post

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I adore my two Rivendells. My raspberry Platypus is perfect, my absolute favorite, and my good-natured Clem is a close 2nd. 

But over time, I noticed little things that I wished were different. Usually, I ponder a long time before actually making any changes, because the smallest adjustment can make a bike feel foreign. I have a long and documented history of driving to bike shops completely nauseated, and crying in their parking lots over ridiculous things like getting new tires or brake cables or a new Nitto rack. When I would retrieve the bike after service, a typical first ride would be: “Now it’s terrible! Nothing like the good thing I had. I hate these new tires. What was I thinking having this rack installed?! I knew it, I should have left the bald tires on the bike and kept it original!” 

Give me enough time and annoyance, and even I will make a change. I had not been getting along with my stock seat post (the nose of the saddle would tip up) and my Brooks (it was rubbing me the wrong way - ha). I got a Rivet Sonora in white (it is fabulous) and a Nitto S83 post, which didn’t offer enough setback. I wanted to scoot back, but was at the end of the Rivet. I was holding my bars forward of the grips to compensate. I wanted to be more stretched out; I felt cramped. My stem is the Nitto x-tall 280mm stem in a 9 cm reach. They offer a 10 cm, but nothing longer, and the 10 wouldn’t make enough difference. I’m not giving up my 280 mm height, so if not a new stem…maybe a new seat post. 

Rivendell sells an IRD Wayback seat post. I’m sure I’m committing some ergonomic sin by adjusting seat post and not stem, but it WORKED. I sit exactly perfect now, and there’s even a measurement on the side so that what I like now has a number I can assign to it.

The cons. It’s not an elegant seat post, but it’s dead practical. The Nitto wins for looks, but I’m more practical than pretty, so I’m only bothered by this a *little*. The Wayback has one bolt, so I’m not sure if my Rivet nose will tip up over time. Weight. The Wayback feels heavy in hand, and noticeably so compared to the Nitto.

Here is where I will credit Laing for 2 things: both stem and seat post. He mentioned both on this List and they were the perfect recommendations for me. I’d never have found either, so thank goodness you posted, Laing!

Leah

PS This hand-wringing does not apply to bags and baskets. I change those like underwear. 

[lucky...@gmail.com]

Nice review. I too have agonized over seatposts. I like Brooks saddles enough to be afraid to invest $150+ in something with longer rails (Selle Anatomica for example: intrigued, but frugal).

Getting behind the seat matters to me in ways lengthening the stem doesn’t address. I have a bad knee/leg, and it has to extend just so or it flares up for weeks. Getting my seat back helps that leg.

I accomplished this with a Thompson layback post, on one bike, but I like the flexibility of the straight post on this since it’ll fit a taller frame with lower post. 

I do wish there were more options in way back/layback/setback posts too. 

Keep us updated on how you like this one. 

On Nov 20, 2021, at 13:03, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[JAS]

Great review, Leah!  I had the same problem with my Platy, but solved it a different way.  I SO wanted a tan saddle to match the tan tire sidewalls and grips so I bought a Selle Anatomica...the “new” style with the lighter cast aluminum rails.  All my other bikes have SA black saddles with steel rails so I figured I deserved something new and different.  You know...matchy, matchy.  Yes, the tan saddle is beautiful on the Platy, but will now be up for sale.  Why?  I couldn’t get it back far enough to fit my leg length.  Apparently I have long femurs and without the set-back, my feet were in the wrong place.  I could have changed my foot placement on pedals but that felt weird (arch on spindle vs ball of foot).

I really didn’t want to get the IRD seat post due to aesthetics; I like the elegance of the Nitto S83 so I called RBW to see what other options there might be and happened to get Grant on the phone.  He helped me determine that Selle Anatomica changed the rail design!  They’re shorter on the cast aluminum.  Flipping them over to compare the two saddles had never occurred to me.  The long steel rails give me the perfect fit on both the Platy and Clem.  I tried ordering another tan SA saddle with steel rails, but didn’t like it so I just stuck my spare black one on the bike and I’m working on being satisfied with black.  (And I say to myself, “Suck it up, buttercup; it’s not the worst problem in the universe.”)

#RivSisters,

Joyce

[Doug H.]

Looks good! I've used a Velo Orange Grand Cru setback seat post but it didn't have THAT much set back. 

Doug

[Leah Peterson]

Joyce, I wish we had talked about this! I was hesitant to say I had this issue because I thought I might be misinterpreting. These long bikes can’t feel cramped, can they? But you had the same issue, and it might have even been compounded by us both having Clems. When you ride a Clem you are luxuriously stretched out. I felt cramped on the Platy after riding a Clem.

I know mine  is not a beautiful solution, but it does work, so I’ll stick with it for now. And, I HAVE to keep my Rivet saddle - I love it, it’s white and perfect for my Platy! I’m sorry your color choice didn’t work out, but I’m so glad that Grant knew about the new rails. Chances are you’ll rarely think about that color because fit > looks. 

#RivSisters, 

Leah

On Nov 20, 2021, at 2:03 PM, JAS <swanso...@gmail.com> wrote:

Great review, Leah!  I had the same problem with my Platy, but solved it a different way.  I SO wanted a tan saddle to match the tan tire sidewalls and grips so I bought a Selle Anatomica...the “new” style with the lighter cast aluminum rails.  All my other bikes have SA black saddles with steel rails so I figured I deserved something new and different.  You know...matchy, matchy.  Yes, the tan saddle is beautiful on the Platy, but will now be up for sale.  Why?  I couldn’t get it back far enough to fit my leg length.  Apparently I have long femurs and without the set-back, my feet were in the wrong place.  I could have changed my foot placement on pedals but that felt weird (arch on spindle vs ball of foot).

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[Roberta]

Funny that with such a long bike that I too wanted more stretch. I kept wanting to push the handlebars away from me (really, my bum backwards). Joyce, I think we had an email discussion about it awhile back and that it surprised both of us. 

I have one of the very tall stems in 100, the longest one they make , originally as high as it could go. So I lowered the stem a little, tilted the handlebars down a little ( I didn’t want to give up on the fabulous Billie bars), moved the saddle back a little . All these little changes added up to a big difference in my comfort. ( I judge comfort in terms of lack of neck pain,).  If I ever feel like I need little more, I’ll move the seat post up a little (likely), shorten the Billies a mm, or get one of those seat posts.  Luckily, we won’t see it when riding.  I have a b68 saddle. 

Leah, thanks for the info on that seat post .

[Tom M]

FWIW, the carbon rail upgrade is longer than the cast aluminum (ask me how I know), and I ended up having to go with that for proper fit. Carbon may be a nonstarter for folks on the list, so I'm just throwing it out here.

--Tom

On Saturday, November 20, 2021 at 5:03:27 PM UTC-5 JAS wrote:

[Joe Bernard]

I discovered this rail situation with Brooks in a form that makes NO sense: The adjustability range on steel- and ti-rail B17s is the same, but it's in a different spot under the saddle. I can't remember which is which (I only have the titanium now) but one of them starts with the saddle further back, then moves the saddle the same distance further back than the other one. Too weird! 

Long bikes too short: In general I've found that unless you're on a really long-front-center frame (that would be a Clem or my custom), just about any reach-back bar wants an 11/12/13cm stem. Which ain't good if the stem you like only comes in 10 or less, then it's wayback post time or an SA saddle. Which both worked so all good! 

Joe "yes I know this was convoluted, no I can't edit it any better, I gave up after the third pass" Bernard

[Patrick Moore]

You are absolutely right to change saddle setback for comfort and balance (and torque too) instead of the stem length; saddle position, including setback, is the anchor of bike fit, all else is adjusted in reference to the saddle. I found this out the very hard way (see below). 

I don't think that the Wayback looks bad, but perhaps the Thompson Layback in silver might look slightly more elegant? I used a Thompson long ago to get a Brooks Flyer far back enough on a 73* seat tube on a mountain bike and it worked well despite the rails way-too-short for a 73* seat tube.

-------------- *** -------------

Years ago when I still believed in "KOPS" -- "knee over pedal spindle" -- and liking then as I do now a lot of leg extension, I ended up with a Ritchey mountain bike seatpost on a road bike with saddle all the way forward on the rails (it would slip forward under my weight until I slathered the cradle in blue Loctite), and this had me installing a 140 mm (later 135 mm) Cinelli stem, with bar 6" below saddle. I was a young 39-40 something, so quite flexible.

The frame was actually quite nice -- upper end British Falcon, tout 531C -- with longish stays and very, very short front-center. You can imagine what the bike felt like on fast downhill sweepers, especially with gusty sidewinds. My weight was biased so for forward that I'd skip the rear wheel when standing to climb. 

Alas, I sold the bike before I learned (from Grant, in fact) how to properly set up a bike: "Get your bar up and back and you saddle back and down." I've not looked back. Thanks, Grant.

That Falcon would probably have felt very comfortable with a wayback saddle to give torque over the top-dead-center of the pedal stroke and enable the core muscles to support the torso, reducing weight on shoulders, arms, and hands. With the rearward weight and the short front end, I'll bet that Falcon would not only have pedaled very nicely, but handled very nicely too, perhaps with something of Grant's signature "stable yet quick in turn-in" feel. 

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 2:03 PM Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

.... . I had not been getting along with my stock seat post (the nose of the saddle would tip up) and my Brooks (it was rubbing me the wrong way - ha).... a Nitto S83 post, which didn’t offer enough setback. I wanted to scoot back, but was at the end of the Rivet. I was holding my bars forward of the grips to compensate. I wanted to be more stretched out; I felt cramped. ...

[lucky...@gmail.com]

—-The only hangup with the Thompson being, you can only get it into the frame up to the bend in the post

On Nov 20, 2021, at 18:13, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:



You are absolutely right to change saddle setback for comfort and balance (and torque too) instead of the stem length; saddle position, including setback, is the anchor of bike fit, all else is adjusted in reference to the saddle. I found this out the very hard way (see below). 

I don't think that the Wayback looks bad, but perhaps the Thompson Layback in silver might look slightly more elegant? I used a Thompson long ago to get a Brooks Flyer far back enough on a 73* seat tube on a mountain bike and it worked well despite the rails way-too-short for a 73* seat tube.

-------------- *** -------------

Years ago when I still believed in "KOPS" -- "knee over pedal spindle" -- and liking then as I do now a lot of leg extension, I ended up with a Ritchey mountain bike seatpost on a road bike with saddle all the way forward on the rails (it would slip forward under my weight until I slathered the cradle in blue Loctite), and this had me installing a 140 mm (later 135 mm) Cinelli stem, with bar 6" below saddle. I was a young 39-40 something, so quite flexible.

The frame was actually quite nice -- upper end British Falcon, tout 531C -- with longish stays and very, very short front-center. You can imagine what the bike felt like on fast downhill sweepers, especially with gusty sidewinds. My weight was biased so for forward that I'd skip the rear wheel when standing to climb. 

Alas, I sold the bike before I learned (from Grant, in fact) how to properly set up a bike: "Get your bar up and back and you saddle back and down." I've not looked back. Thanks, Grant.

That Falcon would probably have felt very comfortable with a wayback saddle to give torque over the top-dead-center of the pedal stroke and enable the core muscles to support the torso, reducing weight on shoulders, arms, and hands. With the rearward weight and the short front end, I'll bet that Falcon would not only have pedaled very nicely, but handled very nicely too, perhaps with something of Grant's signature "stable yet quick in turn-in" feel. 

On Sat, Nov 20, 2021 at 2:03 PM Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

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.... . I had not been getting along with my stock seat post (the nose of the saddle would tip up) and my Brooks (it was rubbing me the wrong way - ha).... a Nitto S83 post, which didn’t offer enough setback. I wanted to scoot back, but was at the end of the Rivet. I was holding my bars forward of the grips to compensate. I wanted to be more stretched out; I felt cramped. ...

Rivendell sells an IRD Wayback seat post. I’m sure I’m committing some ergonomic sin by adjusting seat post and not stem, but it WORKED.

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[Ray Varella]

Leah et al;

You pointed out exactly why the first thing I look at with bike fit is if I can achieve the desired setback for my preferred position. 

Everyone will differ and everyone will have their ideal range but once you know your comfort zone you can get a better idea where your frame will fit regarding your preferred riding position. 

For myself, I tend to avoid frames with seat tubes of 74 degrees and steeper because I can’t slide a Brooks saddle far enough back to achieve a comfortable riding position. Someone riding an identical sized bike might be fine due to either saddle choice, femur  length,  bar height or riding position.  

Bicycle manufacturers aim for the meaty part of the curve but it’s up to us to dial in our preferred fit. 

Kudos to you for recognizing this and hopefully others will optimize their fit for their riding style. 

Ray

[Garth]

Does anyone even know what the seat tube angle is on the Platypus ?  Likely not as the frame geometry was never included in the table. It's either 72 or 71.5.  All 'n all in my opinion Grant/Will could do a better job of educating buyers on fitting their bikes rather than saying "just trust us".  That rather irks me actually as it's the same-ol-same-ol bike shop mentality that's been around since I can remember. "We know better than the customer." No, they don't, as if they did they'd take the time to share in the process of fitting the bike to the customers sensibilities, not the bike shops as their take is inherently of their own self interests. Buying a bike virtually makes it challenging for everyone of course. I take it upon myself to check a frame before I buy it to see what all specs are, if the seat angle is 72 or less, if it has enough f-c, stack and reach and all that jazz. Learn what it all means and how that will translate to actually fitting into the frame. Besides the Bombadil, the only other frame I considered suitable from them was a Susie, which I bought but as of yet I don't feel any enthusiasm to build. 

With a Platypus and a swept back bar I suspect Leah and Roberta could use a longer stem, assuming the saddle is now in the "sweet spot" of what feels right and what feels right is intuitive, a centering balance of being "in the bike" and being able to pedal efficiently. No one can tell you what that point is .... it's like an ah-hah !  moment when you understand something within. It's the Intelligence that is "you", it's irrevocable.  Once you feel that sweet spot then the reach to the bar is likewise intuitive. Feeling cramped in a frame really is a joy sucker isn't it ? !   It's like wearing pants or a jacket that are too tight in some way that you feel restricted, and nobody likes that feeling. I like stretched out relax-forward too, I'm not riding a galloping horse straight upright with the reigns on my thighs, you know ?  That's why I ride a bike, whose wheels are fixed and not galloping,  unlike a horse !  Speaking of which I passed by a pair on the road yesterday, a "country" road of course. Around here you'll see that, and yes, the horses had riders. I know what you were thinking , riderless horses running wild on the road !  They kept up with me for awhile, I could hear their clickety-click behind me and I glanced back and saw these two gaints galloping in tow, oh how majestic ! 

About the stems, I get the attachment to the Nitto negative rise road stems but if you used a threadless adapter and a threadless stem that has a positive rise, or even the Nitto Hi-Riser quill, you don't need nearly as long of a quill. Frankly though, if you're having to use such a tall stem in the first place the stack height of the frame is too low to start with. Consider a custom frame, if not from Riv then from someone else. I'm having a road frame built here in Ohio and he, Jack can build all sorts of frames including mixtes. With 27.2 posts too !  

In regards to seatposts, in 26.8 setback posts are few to start with so yeah finding one with more than 23-25mm of setback seems limited to the IRD. Thomson's seatposts I call "lame-back" because it's a measly 15mm of setback. Does that even count ? If you're gonna set it back you may well make in back enough to notice. They had a prototype 25mm setback post a couple years ago that never made it to market.  Again though, with these short railed leather saddles the seat tube angles should be more like 71 degrees which usually puts them in the custom frame category as few offer that as stock. Jones does but that's not the kind of bike we're speaking of here ! With a 71 sta though that opens the door to less/zero setback posts and/or placing a saddle in the middle of the rails rather than jammed to the front of the rails.  I ride luxurious "Royalgel" Selle Royal Lookin saddles that have thankfully long rails and those are just long enough I can use them with a 72 degree sta and a Salsa Shaft seatpost on the Bombadil. I'm someone who finds leather saddles simply tortuous on the ishiums, those inner parts of sitting bones. Ouch just thinking about it !

[Leah Peterson]

I’ve really enjoyed reading ALL of these responses. I honestly did not know that what I was perceiving was an issue for so many. (And the mental image Garth painted of pedaling among galloping horses in Ohio was an added bonus in this thread.) In fact, I’d have likely just lived with the annoyance of inadequate setback had I not also owned a Clem. I do sit down and in that bike, and once you know it’s possible, you want it for ALL your bikes. I talked myself out of solving the problem because I knew the Platypus to be a long bike - why should it feel too short for me? My perception must be wrong.  

I feel really great on that already great Platypus now; I don’t think I’ll need to change the stem. The Billie Bars continue to be perfect, and I love my saddle, so there is nothing left to do but enjoy the bike all of my life.

Leah

On Nov 21, 2021, at 5:30 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

Does anyone even know what the seat tube angle is on the Platypus ?  Likely not as the frame geometry was never included in the table. It's either 72 or 71.5.  All 'n all in my opinion Grant/Will could do a better job of educating buyers on fitting their bikes rather than saying "just trust us".  That rather irks me actually as it's the same-ol-same-ol bike shop mentality that's been around since I can remember. "We know better than the customer." No, they don't, as if they did they'd take the time to share in the process of fitting the bike to the customers sensibilities, not the bike shops as their take is inherently of their own self interests. Buying a bike virtually makes it challenging for everyone of course. I take it upon myself to check a frame before I buy it to see what all specs are, if the seat angle is 72 or less, if it has enough f-c, stack and reach and all that jazz. Learn what it all means and how that will translate to actually fitting into the frame. Besides the Bombadil, the only other frame I considered suitable from them was a Susie, which I bought but as of yet I don't feel any enthusiasm to build. 

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[Roberta]

Garth, 

You pegged it for me—a 12 or 13 cm stem would have worked if they made it, or sticking with a less pulled back bar like the Albatross. Love the Billies more to hold all my handlebars “stuff.”  I wanted to start with what I had purchased  for the bike before starting to buy other fixes.  

Btw, because of my neck issues, all my stems are near max level. Viola—no more neck pain!   I’m so happy I don’t cry anymore when riding.  I’m glad I found Rivendell. 

I look forward to seeing your custom. 

Roberta

[Leah Peterson]

Today was interesting. I found that the saddle was slipping around in the clamp while on my ride. The setback had changed to 40! I figure this occurred because I had the saddle slid all the way back on the rails; I repositioned it further forward and everything seems ok now. But, this messed up my measurements and I spent the rest of the ride second-guessing where I had set the setback number (all over between 39-45). There’s no telling if I love or hate the current adjustment! I’ve sworn to leave it alone for a bit.

BUT…I have two questions.

1. I have the post slammed into the frame. I can’t get it any lower because it’s making contact with something in there. I can ride in the way it is, but what is the post hitting in there? Am I wrecking stuff? Should I have the post cut at a bike shop?

2. What is this tiny screw for?

Thanks! I owe you all so much.

Leah

On Nov 21, 2021, at 1:17 PM, Roberta <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

Garth, 

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[Joe Bernard]

First, it's so the way of things that it was perfect on the first ride then all went to heck on the second. Oy!

But to the matters at hand. My first assumption was the post is really long and it's clanging into the lip of the toptube as it crosses into the seattube. But this post is 250mm, same as the one you pulled. Unless you somehow got a longer one? My next guess is it's a smidge bigger in diameter than the last one and it's stopping at a butted portion of the seattube where it's thicker in there. In either case it wouldn't hurt anything, but I'd pull the post for an inspection anyway. Maybe there's a burr on the bottom that needs to be sanded down. 

That little bolt is weird. The Riv page says it's an aluminum head/clamp in a steel post, maybe the head/clamp is removable. 

Joe "has more questions than answers" Bernard

[Joe Bernard]

One more theory: The saddle is way back now so the post is lower relative to where you had the old one set. According to this theory both posts would stop at the butted section if you tried to slam them. Or I'm overthinking this! 🤪

[Tim Baldwin]

That's as far down as the seatpost will go. The portion above and just below the little bolt is 27.2 then tapers to 26.8, probably making it easier to produce different seatpost sizes.

I found this out the hard way. Thought it was hitting a butted section so I chopped it only to find it did not go down any lower. Then I got out the calipers. Whoops.

[Joe Bernard]

Well! Do you know how annoying it is to put that much detective work into a bike part and totally not think of the right answer? Pretty annoying! 

Good call on the knowing stuff, Tim 👊

[Nick Payne]

The Nitto S84 lugged seatpost has more setback than their aluminium seatposts...

Nick

[Doug H.]

One would think, hey I'll buy another seatpost, plug and play. But, no, there are always complications with bike parts. I hope you find the answer but I have no suggestions although I am following the discussion to learn. Always be learning, right Joe!

Doug

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[Garth]

Leah I looked at this nifty stem comparison thing here . http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

Reading your post again and comparing the photos of your Clem to your Platy, I can see the reach isn't the same.  

So, comparing the -17 rise 280x90 stem you have to using the Nitto mtc-04 long 225 quill adapter and a Nitto UI-86 26.0 bar(requires a shim) Threadless  +17 rise 120mm stem, you'll be at the same height and gain 31mm of reach. With a 110 extension you gain 21mm of reach. Both of these I found at Ben's Cycles in Wisconsin. Isn't geometry fun ?!  

https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-mtc-04-long-quill-stem-to-threadless-adapter---28-622-2mm-stem_column_adapters_nitto__870-995-30_870-995-30/p

https://www.benscycle.com/nitto-ui-86-threadless-stem-stem_nitto_ui-86_870/p?skuId=673431

I can't say if what you're experiencing is really a lack of setback or reach or a little of both as while the S83 has only 2-3mm less setback than the stock post. Your white saddle also doesn't offer as much room back  as it's a shorter saddle length overall than the Brooks which can of itself give you the sensation of not going back far enough because it's short overall length won't allow it. I know you like the saddle but maybe it's just not a good fit for that particular bike and/or the stem isn't quite right either.  Just throwing it out there, so to speak ! 

About the seatpost, there's this SR post from the 80's, they used to come stock on some mtb's even, and just your size. The only thing is you in lowering them to the flutes you ought to make sure there is enough grease in there so when you wipe it off at the top of the lug there's no gap for water into the seat tube !  I know ... I know ....... mama told me there'd be dayze like these ! 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255030042508?hash=item3b60f99f8c:g:5cEAAOSwmt9g1qWX

Nick the seatpost for these new fangled frames require the wacky 26.8, which Nitto doesn't make the S84 in. Even the guy at Nitto in the Blue Lug tour video wishes Riv wouldn't use it. 

 

[Leah Peterson]

Garth, you are so smart you are making my head spin and it’s early here. So many numbers… You are right that my reach is different on each bike - the Clem is SO long that I have an 8 cm stem and the Brooks is pushed all the way back and the fit couldn’t be better. BUT, The Platy is so different. I know you’re right about a longer reach being better, but I can’t possibly give up those Billie Bars, oh, they are fabulous. I think this configuration will work, but it just isn’t very plug and play, is it?

Tim, THANK YOU for saving me the frustration of hauling that bike in and paying for the seat post to be unnecessarily cut. You must have this same seat post? Is yours pushed all the way down into the frame as well?

I think I can ride the bike with the seat post as is, but extremes always irk me. I don’t like being maxed out or…min’d out (I know that’s not a word). But I will do something I’ve never actually done and that is measure the saddle height on both bikes. I should probably know that number.

Now, again, 2 questions:

1. Is there any problem with having that seat post pushed down so low? As in, am I putting pressure on the frame? 

2. What is that darn screw for?!

I’m off today so I’ll try again with this seat post.

Leah

On Nov 22, 2021, at 5:19 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:

Leah I looked at this nifty stem comparison thing here . http://yojimg.net/bike/web_tools/stem.php

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/35720bc2-4c1f-4183-b9b2-0b66dfac22b2n%40googlegroups.com.

[lconley]

Glad to be of help. Leah, maybe you can use your influence with Rivendell to get them to get Nitto to make a 26.8 lugged setback seatpost, but that is a big ask because of the expense of casting a new lug for a low production item. The two bolt seatposts are great because they let you adjust the fore and aft of the seat without changing the angle and vice-versa. You loosed one of the bolts, slide the post and retighten the same bolt and the seat returns to the same angle. Changing the angle is similarly improved - to change the angle, you loosen the bolt on the end you want to move up 1/4 turn and tighten the other bolt 1/4 turn, thus changing the angle without sliding the seat, repeat as necessary.

The little fastener on the back of the seatpost helps retain the post head to the post.

There is one other way to adjust the seat to pedal relationship but I am hesitant to mention it because it will do the exact opposite of "sitting down in the bike". That is a shorter crank length - it moves the pedal towards the seat instead of the other way around. Advantage is that it does not alter the seat to handlebar relationship. Disadvantage is that it results in a higher center of gravity and a longer seat to pavement relationship. The generally lower bottom bracket of road-ish Rivendells is one of the things that gives Rivendells their feel, and using shorter cranks kind of negates that.

I have been looking at and pricing seat tube reamers in order to use 27.2 lugged seatposts in 26.8 and 27.0 frames (reamers are much faster than brake cylinder hones, which is my current method). I realize that this is way beyond what most people are willing to do to their bike frame and almost certainly not what Rivendell would approve of, but Rivendell did use the thinner tubing for many years.

Laing

[Tim Baldwin]

Leah, I bought the IRD seatpost for my 53 cm Susie, but I can't slam it low enough for that frame. The IRD will go on my 51cm Atlantis where I can get it low enough. Just need a few tweaks on that build to get it going after installing a Crust cargo fork. I went back to the S83 on the Susie for a bit but could not get back as far as I wanted. So now I'm trying a slightly undersized SR MTE post (with classy La Croix can shim) that I can get low enough.

I do wish Riv could get Nitto to make the lugged post in 26.8. It's a much more elegant way to move your saddle back.

[Patrick Moore]

Lean and Tim: You can cut seatposts to fit a frame. I've done it many times with a hacksaw, but it's much easier (for both cutting and cleanup) to use a pipe cutter, which most hardware stores will have.

Why not trim the unneeded excess from the IRDs so that they work?

[Tim Baldwin]

Patrick, the length is not the limiting factor. The top of the post is 27.2 and tapers to 26.8. I found this out the hard way by cutting first and measuring second. IRD must have done this so they can use the same mold for the top clamping portion and change the shaft based on the desired seatpost diameter. The downside of this is that with the 26.8 seatpost as low as it can go, the center of the clamp where the saddle rails sit will be 10.5 cm above the frame's seat tube.

[Patrick Moore]

Ahh, got it. well, good luck to all fettling their seatposts.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Garth]

Oh I get it Leah , all techie words and no practical relating makes for a bunch of goobly gop !  It was all a long winded attempt to express yo you that indeed you can keep the Billie bars at the same height while extending forward for more reach. In case you missed it I also included a link to the SR very long setback seatpost for sale on ebay. The only thing is you in lowering it to the flutes you ought to make sure there is enough grease in there so when you wipe it off at the top of the lug there's no gap for water to get into the seat tube !  I know ... I know ....... mama told me there'd be dayze like these ! 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/255030042508?hash=item3b60f99f8c:g:5cEAAOSwmt9g1qWX

I know it looks different but the combination quill adapter and threadless stem works very well because it's so versatile. If you ever change the length of the stem all you do is unscrew the 4 bolts from the front plate of the stem(the horizontal part),  and loosen the 2 bolts that clamp it onto the quill(the vertical part). You never ever have to remove anything from your bars if changing just the stem(horizontal part) and you never remove the quill either ! Here is my road bike with Albatross bars and a 10-degree rise, 130mm extension, threadless stem attached to a Velo Orange quill adapter.

[Joe Bernard]

"Always be learning, right Joe!"

Even after all these decades of fiddling with bikes. It never in a million years would have occurred to me that a 26.8 post would be 27.2 at the top. Or have a screw in it. What IS this contraption??!

Joe Bernard

[Garth]

That the post has a screw in it to "insure" it stays in place doesn't inspire confidence on the part of the manufacturer. Imagine putting some screws in the lugs of a frame "just in case" . Come to think of it I did have a KHS Columbus SL tubed frame have the seat tube pop out of the bottom bracket in the 80's, so darnit .... that screw could came in handy !  Hardy har har !!!   Or maybe it's a "liable screw", or maybe someone just had a screw loose and didn't know else else to put than the .... oh I don't know .... the back of a seatpost ?  Someones humour doesn't translate in print ..... so this is my own laugh track (((((((((( laughter )))))))) !

If this were my nightmare though I would consult Jack the framebuilder about having the frame reamed out to 27.2 post, like every other Columbus or Reynolds 28.6 OD steel racing frame I've ridden on using the same Campy posts. No .... I take that back  .... I'd rather wake up from the nightmare and realize it was all but a wayward dream about things that could never be ..... a land where things were never quite right for all the eye to see and all the people that be. Now you may laugh and you may cry .... as do I .... but never fear ..... for All is Well right Now and Here. . Hah !  Yet I hear echoes of arguments that now and here sucks and things are never all right ..... and to that I take neither defense or offense and surely neither dither or delight . For things to be at all however ..... things must be all alright ..... lest never there be anything being at all in the first place to go not right .  This is non-negotiable. And with this I rest, Oh listen to the chorus of this Silent Night !!!!!!  My favorite song !

[Ryan]

That bolt? Was wondering that myself. A solution in search of a problem? Leah, that sucks that your seatpost didn't hold your adjustment. I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest because I think my custom I bought in 2016 needs a seatpost with more setback; right now I'm using the S83. But I feel too far forward with the mixte geometry ; I'd like to be  butt back and pivoting a little more forward. I don't love that IRD, it's ugly IMO. Maybe the lugged Nitto is the answer. I quickly checked the build list for my mixte...and yes, it's a frame tht takes a 27.2 seatpost. 

[Joe Bernard]

The lugged post is lovely and I recommend it for the setback, but we all need to remember one thing when deciding if a post is ugly or pretty: Most of us put a strap around the dang things and block it with a saddlebag, then our legs do the rest. No one can see the post! 🤣

[Ryan]

you're right about that Joe, of course. If you're running a saddlebag.  If  Leah's IRD is loosening and going out of adjustment for no good reason....that's ugly..and potentially dangerous. 

Google turned up this:

1.0 out of 5 stars Heavy, expensive, and it slips... The clamp mechanism is poorly designed. It will clamp the saddle securely at the desired angle, however the clamp mechanism will migrate to the rear of the setback slot and not hold its position. This in spite of proper installation--grease and required torquing.

Sounds like this is what Leah talked about. 

I feel like a 2-bolt design is more robust...and since I am not as svelte as I would like, I feel more secure with the 2-bolter S83's 

[Leah Peterson]

Ryan, this could be the case. I took the bike out for another 11 miles tonight. I made sure to put my weight on it on bumps to see if I could loosen that bolt/clamp. I have a pretty fast mile descent with lots of bumps. It did come loose. I periodically jumped off to make minor adjustments and check the bolt, and often, it was coming loose.

By the time I got home there was a ticking noise in the saddle. I tightened everything having anything to do with that seat post and saddle. I will see what tomorrow brings but it’s not looking good for this seat post. Which is unfortunate, because I really loved the setback and the little measurement tool on the side. Great ideas.

At this point I may go back to the annoying stock seat post (which has a tiny bit more setback than the S83) and maybe get the stem in a 100. That’s as long of a reach as they make in that tall stem. Sigh. So sad.

L

On Nov 22, 2021, at 6:33 PM, Ryan <ryte...@mts.net> wrote:

you're right about that Joe, of course. If you're running a saddlebag.  If  Leah's IRD is loosening and going out of adjustment for no good reason....that's ugly..and potentially dangerous. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/ec6b6e31-02a2-4ce4-bac5-f9d09af32a9bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Ryan]

Ugh...that's a drag. I wonder if it's worth contacting IRD? Maybe this is a defect they should address. Or even better maybe Riv has a hack they can suggest. I know they would be happy to help you, Leah. Or the wisdom of ROB? The other nice post with lots of setback and 2 bolts is Paul's Tall and Handsome...but it's not available in  26.8. And, of course, not cheap...north of $200 , say $220?  Anyway, somebody, can't remember who, said it's not exactly plug-and-play with seat posts and it looks like they weren't wrong. 

Anyway...I do hope for your sake  a solution can be found. 

[Joe Bernard]

It would be nice to see that S84 in 26.8. Since most Rivs come that way now. Hey Grant! 

[Eric Marth]

Hi Leah -- One thing that's come up a few times so far in the thread, that I would like to emphasize again, is to make sure you've greased the seatpost clamp bolt. Ungreased bolts won't hold torque. 

I like a lot of setback and I purchased the same IRD seatpost for my Appaloosa. I had a lot of trouble with it. Even with a greased bolt it did not hold attitude. After a short time the knurls in the clamp cradle wore off and then I was without the necessary indexing/notching/friction required to cinch the clamp down with. 

There's nothing worse than riding and having your seat move on you constantly. It's really disheartening and no fun! 

I called Jim at Soma/IRD/Newbaums/etc. about the clamp, they offered to send me a replacement clamp, got my address, but it never arrived. I talked to Will and did a straight exchange for a new IRD wayback which I never installed. In the meantime I got one of the SR-Sakae MTE-100 Ringyo seatposts that Garth mentioned above. I believe the IRD is a copy of the SR-Sakae. This seatpost looks better than the IRD and holds attitude. They're out there! As Garth also mentioned the flutes can be trouble if you have to sink your post way down in the frame. Lucky for me my flutes are fully exposed. 

If you get an SR I recommend ditching the quick release for an M8 bolt and locknut and washer. You'll definitely need the locknut and washer. If you go this route hit me up, I have a handful of M8 bolts that fit this seatpost. 

All this said, and I know a few agree, I would prefer a Nitto S84! I have one on my Hillborne. Zero problems, plenty of setback. 

[Leah Peterson]

Eric, 

That seat post looks terrifying. Flutes? Quick release? Yikes! Also: I have never greased a bolt in my life. I would think that would make it more slippery and likely to come loose, so I have never done it. Put it on the list of wrong things Leah Peterson has done with mechanical things. 

What grease do you use for such a thing? I do grease the stem and seat post so they don’t get stuck in the frame…I hope I get points for that.

I am going to email Will and Grant and beg for a Nitto S84 for the 26.8 seat tubes. Wish me luck.

L

On Nov 23, 2021, at 11:23 AM, Eric Marth <eric...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Leah -- One thing that's come up a few times so far in the thread, that I would like to emphasize again, is to make sure you've greased the seatpost clamp bolt. Ungreased bolts won't hold torque. 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/e48d2e49-0f76-4067-9337-7aa10d0528e5n%40googlegroups.com.

[Eric Marth]

I know, I know, it's not great. It's better than the IRD and one of the only long setback options out there in 26.8. 

I use Phil's waterproof grease. Whatever bicycle grease you've got for your stem and seatpost will work.

Please let us know what Riv says about the 26.8 S84. 

[Garth]

Oh how I would not be the recipient of that email !   

You know slipping head on single bolt seatposts is not uncommon and some design are worse than others. The most prudent thing a user can do is to use a longer allen wrench for more leverage, like one 6-8 inches long. I can't tell by photos, but it's either 5 or 6mm. Some blue loctite applies to the threads can also prevent it from loosening, but having much-o  el-torque-o in the first place is essential. If you think about it, all that's keeping that head on top of that head is pressure by literally squeezing it together. So it needs to be a very good squeeze !  For the price of one you may as well get a set as you'll find yourself using more than one anyways.

Another item I read is using what's called "valve grinding compound" from an auto parts store applied in between the clamp "sandwich" to create some friction in the head as I bet it's smooth. Those are the worst. I suppose carbon past would do also but auto parts stores are everywhere. Permatex is a common brand, called 80037 Valve Grinding Compound.

While all this may seem foreign to you Leah it's not rocket science and shouldn't be taken as such !  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Bondhus-17099-Balldriver-L-wrenches-BriteGuard/dp/B000E80G7A 

[Doug H.]

I remember as a BMX kid in the late 70s early 80s my handlebars kept slipping on my Mongoose. We cranked those stem bolts as tight as we could but every now and then when I would land too hard on my front wheel it would move ever so slightly. So, my dad took the stem/handlebar to work (he was and electrician) and had a welder weld it together! It never moved again obviously but I also couldn't adjust the bars, which never crossed my mind anyway. So there is a fix Leah! Ha ha.

Doug

[Ryan]

I'm hardly a mechanic, Garth, but what you're saying sure makes a LOT of sense...much better than begging for a 26.8 lugged seatpost...which is probably not gonna happen anytime soon with all the Covid-induced supply chain woes...to say nothing of enough demand to make a run of these feasible.

[Eric Marth]

Great recs, Garth! 

An S84 in 26.8 seems super unlikely. But, damnit, I will continue to dream by dreams. And it's a dream I share with at least a dozen other board members :) 

[Leah Peterson]

Alright you guys, I emailed Grant asking (begging?) for a seat post. I said you people sent me. I also said maybe we have to fundraise. I’d gladly chip in money to make this project happen. Maybe he will say he already has something in the works. Maybe he will know of a place that already makes a 26.8 setback seat post without all the workarounds in the ones listed here. There’s no telling, but I suppose it doesn’t hurt to ask.

L

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[JAS]

Leah, you are a star!  Thanks for asking Grant about the seat post.  I'm in!  I'd gladly pre-order and pitch in some money as well.  It's so elegant.  If they make it they should call it the Platyfied S84.

#RivSisters,

Joyce

[Eric Marth]

One thing I forgot to add, in response to Garth's note about torque: I absolutely smoked the clamp bolt on my IRD and that sucker still slipped. I weight 170 and it was moving riding on good roads around town. No ruff stuff. 

Might be worthwhile to get a general list of people interested in an S84 in 26.8! Add me to the list, would pre-order. 

[Ian A]

Kent Erkisen (retired) was a titanium frame builder and also offered titanium seat posts with custom setback (layback) options.Very expensive, of course. I wonder if any US based builders would be open to doing a run of hand brazed chromoly 26.8 seat posts with your desired setback? If there was enough interest, a group purchase might be enough to interest a frame builder.

IanA who is not volunteering to coordinate a group buy and who has no need for a 26.8 seat post so should probably mind his own business in Alberta Canada

[Joe Bernard]

"it's not rocket science"

It's a 26.8 post but 27.2 at the top and one bolt holds the saddle but you gotta get it really tight or it'll slip no that's not tight enough you need grease or Blue Loctite or maybe valve grinding compound also a long wrench good luck. 

It's rocket science. 

[Garth]

I think the stickler is the head clamp Ian, which one and by whom ? There is a titanium custom seatpost maker who does an ultra long setback with the Thomson clamp, but it's a cool $625. that's no misprint. For that investment get a custom frame built by someone else with a 71 degree seat tube angle and a 27.2 post as that gives you the flexibility to literally use any kind of 27.2 post you want,  and clamp the rails near the middle. I say this because using a long setback post is just weird in real world use. It's a band-aid for frames that don't fit the rider and/or the saddle. I have an S84 on my custom road bike that has a 72.5 STA, it's too steep to get my saddle back where I wanted it with a regular post. With the S84 my thighs are now that much more behind the seat tube. With my Revelate seat pack it took many fails to be able to velcro it around the seatpost without my thighs rubbing on it because it attached to the rails also and the saddle was now so far back. it's not so much the brushing feeling it as it the strap and velcro trashes apparel, apparel that is expensive and/or non-replaceable. Now with a saddle positioned closer to the center of the rails and the seat tube everything is grande !   Oh gosh the things they don't tell you in all those quick fix solutions......  They seem best only for those that sell them !

That custom wayback post looks just as awful too. It ironically has that darn screw in the back, hilarious !!!!!

https://www.ticycles.com/components/seatpost-custom-titanium

https://images.squarespace-cdn.com/content/v1/576db62a725e2552c362fdba/1512779492929-XKS77G3G6M71U4RH3EU8/TCF-seatpost-ti-custom-ultra-setback+(4).JPG

[Tim Baldwin]

Thanks for taking initiative on the 26.8 lugged seatpost Leah! I'll take two!

That is one ugly expensive seatpost Garth!

 What I really want is to be about 1cm back from where an S83 post places me. I'm guessing the majority of the interested folks are in a similar boat. I don't need all the extreme setback of the SR MTE-100 or IRD seatposts but it gets me where I want to be. I would much prefer a fixed two bolt clamp design with the clamp set further back. A 26.8 S84 would do just while also being one of the best looking seatposts around.

[Doug H.]

Would Paul in Chico, CA be more likely to make a 26.8 setback post than Nitto? I'd be really into buying an American made seatpost.

Doug

Athens, GA

[Joe Bernard]

Fun fact I discovered during a short window of time when I had a Nitto S65, S83 and the stock MIT Kalloy that comes on production Rivs: the Kalloy has more setback than both Nittos 🤔

Joe Bernard, Rocket Scientist

[Garth]

While the printed specs say 23mm for the Nitto and 24mm for the Kalloy, if the Kalloy uses a similar head to their other posts it's also considerably shorter in length than the Nitto.(measure the raid head front to back) What that means is the Nitto having a longer clamp will feel more solid than a seapost with a shorter clamp. I recall the difference between a Kalloy head and a Campy head being  something 10mm overall. So while the Kalloy can thus fit further back giving the effect of more setback, it also concentrates the stress on the rails to a notably smaller area. It's like trying to grab a rod with 4 fingers rather than 3, see which one is more stable from a rocking motion. I won't buy any seatpost with a small clamp ! 

[Mackenzy Albright]

This has been a super interesting conversation and a similar struggle that I've found myself with a slacker seat tube bike! 

My general observations seem to be, as the seat tube slackens, I seem to want to hunch forward more. pushing my body forward, making me want to reach much much further. Reading further, I think I may have short femurs. My squats tend to keep me quite upright, which is also a good indicator of femur lengths. 

The higher my bars go, the further I want to reach. I used some bosco-moose bars and found the 120 to feel ridiculously close. I felt like I could have used a 160mm stem to get them where I would ideally want them. 

When I push my seat forward the ETT shortened so much it also felt a little short, especially with high bars. 

I ended up trying the losco with a medium height (approximately bar height) with the seat forward biased, but not slammed. It seemed to get good hip flexor and core engagement, reasonably light upper body engagement, surprisingly so. 

It reminded me of a Rivendell reader where reach is discussed as the bars go up, the reach shortens literally as well as our physiology (arms lengthen) creating a longer physical reach but making the bike feel shorter. Lowering the bars not only lowers the bars, it also creates a longer reach. Which, makes sense in some situations. For those struggling with the front of the bike feeling disproportionally short, I wonder if lowering the bars to closer to saddle height would bring the arms in closer to the body creating a physical longer reach. That's what seemed to happen for myself, which has been very positive especially in regards to my neck and shoulder injury that is very sensitive. 

I love chatting bike geometry. One of my favorite builder (WZRD BIKES from victoria) is doing the opposite of rivendell and using downhill inspired geometry working with looooonnng top tubes, slack steering, short stems, and quite steep seat tubes (74-76ish) for hilly climbing for back country adventure riding with rigid frames. I see some merit to this position since I seem to find myself more comfortable in the 73-74* zone. 

It seems there's many ways to approach fit, and it's great seeing people push fit (comfort, distance, endurance, fun) outside of racing specific tropes which seems very limited.