Comparing drop bars to uprights: Path Less Pedaled

[dougP]

PLP has had a test bike from Rivendell for a while now.  It was originally delivered with upright bars.  They recently changed to drops for a head to head test of bars.  Interestingly he liked the drops better, although he's had no complaints about the uprights.  Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-yyNxJcF5M

My question is whether anyone has determined a preferred location for hands in relation to the pivot point of the handlebars?  Hands in front, as with drops?  Hands behind, as with uprights? 

What drives the question is my experience with my Atlantis.  I rode it for many years with drops, and was quite pleased with the handling.  However, over a period of years my hands developed numbness after a while on a ride.  I rode primarily on the tops & brake hoods.  While on a trip, using a rental bike with flat bars, I noticed a complete lack of hand numbness.  Hopping back on the Atlantis when I got home, the same hand numbness issue was there.  I've tried various upright bars, first with the same 10cm stem I'd always used, then with a dirt drop.  The numbness is long gone but the bike does seem more sensitive to steering input with the uprights vs the drops. 

Anyone have any ideas on this?

Doug peterson

[Ben Mihovk]

Russ actually bought that Sam...so no longer a test bike :)

For three whole days now, I've ridden an Atlantis with Chocos and I really like my hands at the ends of the bars. The bike handles like a bus, so the "liveliest" hand placement on that bike is not too jumpy or twitchy. Plus...I just plod along at Party Pace (as they say on PLP) on pavement. It'd probably be more stable with drop bars and able to hold my line better in speedy spurts, but I'm not riding in a pack any time soon.

[Ash]

Another rather useful video by PLP!  I'm going to speculate that he will be back to Boscos with a right length stem :)

The perceived stability is likely 50% due to the riding position he's used to.  People who are used to upright bars probably won't have a problem riding on any kind of trails (example: various Deacon Patrick's pictures I have seen on this forum, Grant's buddy making a very sharp turn with a Bosco-like bar https://vimeo.com/463214265 ).   

I have a drop bar road bike which I still ride occasionally.  To me Bosco feels like a more ergonomic version of drop bars.  Drop bars offer aggressive (drops) and slightly relaxed (hoods, corners, flat area) positions, while Bosco offers relaxed (front of the swept back section) and more relaxed positions.  I frequently switch between these two positions.  Overall hands, shoulders and neck feel more relaxed after a couple hours of ride as compared to the drop bar.  Next time I do a full day ride, I might even install hoods if I can find something that fits Boscos.

[dougP]

Thanks guys for the input.  I've looked at bars on Rivendell's site & they do have a good selection.  Just not sure what I want / need.  Bars are fun to experiment with what a PITA to keep messing with stems, cables, and fine tuning.  Keep those suggestions coming.

dougP

[Jason Fuller]

I'm coming around to the idea that drops can be set up to wildly more upright than what common knowledge would have you believe so that you can still get the same assortment of positions but with a more Bosco-like neutral position. To do this you can run something like this stem [https://www.crustbikes.com/products/nitto-26-0-bj-stem/] on a modern Riv, and I'd run 48cm Noodles for the nice width and their well proven ergonomics. 

That said, I vastly prefer upright bar brake levers for better power and control - drop bar levers are just at a terrible angle, even modern ergo levers. I've never tried Boscos - my instincts were that they'd be too "land yacht" feeling for me but I'm starting to wonder if they don't make more sense than I give them credit. Albatross are hard to beat though. 

My Noodle-to-Albatross conversion ratio is a 6cm longer stem on the latter (ie 5cm stem for the Noodles and a 11cm stem for the Albatross on my Sam) 

[velomann]

"I'm going to speculate that he will be back to Boscos with a right length stem :)"

My guess too. Russ and I have been in communication about the Sam and the bars and stem - his review is partly what tipped me to commit to one of the upcoming Sams. We're roughly the same height, though I have a slightly longer inseam and I'm getting a 51. I'll be installing one of the new faceplate stems in 120 length with Boscos. I'm guessing Russ will be getting one of those stems in the same length. I won't be surprised to see his Boscos remounted to that stem in the not too distant future ;-)

Mike M

[dougP]

"My Noodle-to-Albatross conversion ratio is a 6cm longer stem on the latter (ie 5cm stem for the Noodles and a 11cm stem for the Albatross on my Sam) "

That's interesting.  I did not change the stem when I first put upright bars on my Atlantis.  The hand position took care of the numbness issue.  The last year or so I've been thinking I needed to be more upright (older body, not so flexible anymore).  I have a dirt drop on there now, with the bars an inch or so above where they were with the stock stem at max height (even with the seat).  Eyeballing it, it looks like the dirt drop also pulls the bars at least an inch closer.  A longer stem seems counter-intuitive.  The standard was 100 mm. 

I'm beginning to understand how people accumulate a collection of stems & bars.  Maybe the goal should be to get your favorite hand position roughly the same distance from the steerer, either forward or behind, at the right height?  Points to ponder.

dougP

[Jason Fuller]

Yeah it's because my "neutral" hand position on drops is quite forward of the end of the stem (something like 12-14 cm) while on the Albaross it'll be actually a bit back from the end of the stem - so even with the 6cm shorter stem, the reach to my "80% position" is quite a bit less still  

[dougP]

I'm beginning to visual this but want to confirm.  On the Albatross with the the 11 cm stem, your hands are roughly in the same place as on the drops?  That makes sense. 

With drops and a 10 cm stem, my hands would be 60-70 mm ahead of the stem, or 160-170 mm ahead of the steering axis.  By changing to upright bars (with a slight flair) with the same 10 cm stem, my hands moved back to to roughly the steering axis.  It sounds like I need to get my hands forward of the steering axis to mimic the drop bar position.

Thx,

dougP

[Todd G.]

I’ll should be going down this path in the near future. Working on getting a used, or new one once they land at Rivendell. For drops I’m planning on running 46cm Noodles, and for more “casual” bars something like an Albatross. Pretty excited to see how it’s mannerisms change between the two cockpit setups. Will do my best to offer a review once I get some time on both.

[Eric Myers]

I definitely prefer the handling of a hand position in front of the pivot point, and not too far away from the center-line of the bike.  Riding on the hoods of older, narrower drop bars is like this, ditto some flat bars if the stem is right.  *But* that position is always too far forward for me to ride long without my hands going numb, so overall I prefer uprights that give me a hand position in front of, at the side of, and behind the pivot point.  The trade-off of slightly squirrelier handling but longer comfort is worth it.

[dougP]

Your experience supports Rivendell's offering of a variety of bars.  Albatross, Billie, etc., are all variations of the same theme.  They all move weight rearward but offer the hand position up front in the curve of the handlebars.  It would be interesting to overlay some of their bars on the Origin8 SpaceBar I've been using.

dougP

[Mark Roland]

 dougP wrote: It would be interesting to overlay some of their bars on the Origin8 SpaceBar I've been using.

There is a website I think called whatbars that lets you do exactly that. I'm not sure where the hands are in relation to the "pivot" is all that important, though of course YMMV. My Bosco Bulls come back  more than any of my other bars, and that bike handles anything but twitchy. I think there are so many variables it's hard to generalize.

About ten years ago the guys at Rivendell mounted a reversed stem on a Schwinn Mtb, handling was reported to be just fine.

On Tuesday, October 6, 2020 at 6:29:07 PM UTC-4,

[Jason Fuller]

I believe them that it handled fine but I am having a hard time understanding how the bar-con's aren't an issue with knee clearance.  I am certain I'd be hitting them all the time when I try to stand and pedal (both the impale and the ghost shift would be unwelcome).  I dig the funky vintage safety bicycle look though. 
 

[Mark Roland]

It was done as a let's see if it works experiment, not for actual day to day use. Though the longer top tubes of vintage mountain bikes and many current Rivs might allow for one of the zero offset stems from Analog Cycles to work with bar ends and drops.

[Joel S]

Thanks for posting Doug.  I just got a Sam and have Albatross bars as I do on my Bleriot.  The Sam seems more sure footed bit I have a 48mm vs 42mm on the Sam.  Drops are not in my reality anymore although I do hold the bars just before and even on the curve of the bars a bit.  Of course I only ride on smooth roads 99% of the time.  Always good to see these mini reviews.

Joel