Save Bruce Gordon Cycles

[Evan Baird]

Cross Post from BOB

Hey Everybody. I spoke with Bruce Gordon again this afternoon and he still hasn't found a buyer for his shop. My partner Norma and I decided that we want to try to raise the money to turn BG Cycles into a frame building school and bike touring museum and open it to the public. I think what Bruce is asking is an insanely low amount of one of the most respected names in custom bicycles and I think that he deserves a comfortable retirement after everything he's done for the American Bike Industry. If you can't support us directly please help us spread the word about our crowdfunding campaign. We have about a month to pull this off, after which Bruce told me he's just going to take his bicycle collection to the recyclers and scrap the lot. I really believe he intends to do that, and I would break my heart to see such beautiful and historical bikes get destroyed.

https://www.gofundme.com/save-bruce-gordon-cycles

[Brian Campbell]

Threats as motivation=not so good.

[Eric Norris]

He’s going to take a potentially valuable bicycle collection to the recycler for scrap? That strikes me as either monumentally stupid or something done in a fit of pique. What’s wrong with selling them?

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

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[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

He’s going to take a potentially valuable bicycle collection to the recycler for scrap? That strikes me as either monumentally stupid or something done in a fit of pique. What’s wrong with selling them?

I think the problem is BG expects his bikes to fetch top dollar. I remember seeing pictures of his collection 10 years ago and the numerous awards he won. But there were a couple of problems with his bikes. First, Bruce is a big guy and rides a 61cm or something like that. So that narrows the market.  Second, he wants a lot for his bikes. Now, I don't blame him as his work is fabulous. But, when you're asking $7k to $10K or more, well the market gets really small, especially for steel. Yes, Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla can command $6K/frameset, but they're the exception.   Here's a few examples of his work:

https://3.bp.blogspot.com/-fJhGNCfBn0Y/V1r1UbJBUgI/AAAAAAAABLY/ivSDccAWoDgydhkjADq6uT2ws30nZkLRQCLcB/s1600/Picture%2B005.jpg

https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-vuHrbMAltWg/V1r1RdbBHVI/AAAAAAAABLI/eqaSdrnpDMwCmOFq22ISj8HQXqkK9YE4QCKgB/s1600/jbl_030407_NAHBS_1084.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_JnO-tW2_nB0/S8jQ9Ig0sHI/AAAAAAAAAIo/DXJWAmlYM-c/s1600/XA7I0020.JPG

Here are some photos of his collection:

http://urbanvelo.org/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/IMG_0734.jpg

http://www.bicycleretailer.com/sites/default/files/styles/colorbox_popup/public/images/article/Bruce%20Gordon%20Bicycle%20Gallery.jpg?itok=1pcJZ_CX

Good Luck!

[Christopher Murray]

He seems like an interesting guy. I highly doubt he's going to recycle his bikes- that seems like an idle threat. Why not raffle them off? Sell some tickets for $10 or $25. Have a minimum number of tickets you'd need to sell. Winners pay shipping. Or how about offering something to commemorate his retirement? A picture of him riding off into the sunset on a fully loaded bike? If he signed them I think a lot of people would be interested. I think there is a lot of potential here to raise enough funds for a comfy retirement.

Cheers,
Chris

[Deacon Patrick]

Perhaps as a Kickstarter venture rather than a donation?

With abandon,

Patrick

[Julian Westerhout]

My response to this on the Boblist (for those who don't follow both): 

Evan, 

Do you have an actual business plan beyond hoping others give you enough $ to buy his bikes? Aside from his cool bike collection and the relatively minimal value of his tools, the value of the business IS Bruce Gordon. He has been struggling for the past few years -- what makes you think that once he is gone folks will flock to learn how to build bikes from a "museum" with his name on it but with no other connection? Who are your master builder/instructors? How many people do you imagine would pay to see his collection? How much would it cost you to keep the doors open? 

Your claim that he is threatening to recycle all of his collection instead of sell it piece by piece is indicative of the problem. That's irrational -- if he really was so low energy, he could engage someone else to sell it for him. If he cannot even manage that what sort of support/guidance will he provide as you attempt to succeed at pushing a BG-less BG Cycles? 

What happens to the $$ you are raising if you are not successful in getting the $250,000 you're asking for? You're using GoFundMe, which allows withdrawals of any and all monies collected, regardless of success of drive. If you don't raise the full amount, will you and Norma keep the funds raised? Refund your donors? Donate the funds to BG? Are you using an escrow service? 

As you plan on being a museum/educational facility, have you looked into the laws associated with doing so? Will you be a 501(C)3? How will you be structured? You're making a big ask -- perhaps you'd like to share more on your plans and what you've developed so far. 

Julian Westerhout

Bloomington, Il

[Eric Norris]

Thanks to Julian for asking some important questions. As good a framebuilder as he is, I wonder how many people will travel to Petaluma to see his workshop who aren’t already going to the US Bicycle Hall of Fame museum in Davis? Call Richard Sachs and ask him how many people show up at his doorstep to watch the *real* Richard Sachs actually building frames.

It would probably be helpful to look at the experience of Jan Heine, who bought the rights to the Rene Herse name and is building Herself bicycles. That’s the only example of which I’m aware (other than, say, Schwinn) in which a former builder’s name is being used by a different builder … and Herse is arguably a better-known name worldwide.

This whole thing needs a strong and level-headed business plan before people start handing over potentially non-refundable money.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Orc]

More hassle than throwing them into a dumpster.   I suspect that what BG wants is for one of the more-money-than-god-less-sense-than-a-cat .com billionaires that infest the bay area to throw down some pocket change, then show up with a moving truck and get the things out of his hair.   And they won't do that unless they think that it's a rare & valuable collection that they're getting at a steal from an eccentric genius.   Which it is.  And he is.  And maybe it's a steal.   It's not much more than a Tesla, and I'd say they've got more value for money than it would have.

-david parsons

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 8:28:32 AM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

[Eric Norris]

Ah … the “greater fool” theory: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_fool_theory 

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Evan Baird]

We've got a group of people together to discuss the best framework to use. If you have experience setting up a nonprofit, coop or b corp I encourage you to send me your email and I'll add you to the group. If you think Bruce is messing around maybe you're right, or maybe you don't actually know him very well. The way he put it to me is he can't ride them, so if nobody wants them badly enough to pay up then fuck it. I honestly don't care what happens as long as Bruce gets what he deserves, which is respect, dignity and a comfortable retirement. If you have 250,000 I would say it's a bargain.

[Eric Norris]

If he can’t sell the bikes, he should consider donating them. There are probably a few tall people out there in need of transportation who could use a serviceable bicycle. Much better than having them scrapped.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Evan Baird]

Trust me, we've been over all the options. If you think you have a better rapport with him than I do be my guest.

[Orc]

It would be nicer if they were donated, yes, but I can imagine why BG would be somewhat annoyed after coming to the realization that spending most of his life as a (really good) framebuilder and $2.50 is worth a cup of drip coffee at Starbucks.

-david parsons

[Julian Westerhout]

Evan, 

If you " honestly don't care what happens as long as Bruce gets what he deserves" then this endeavor is really pointless. You seem to think a quarter million dollars is chump change. Having been on the board of several established not-for-profits (not bike related) I can tell you raising that sort of money unless you have some sort of real draw is not easy.  

Your effort, such as it is (seems limited to a quick GoFundMe page), does not even consider how you'll keep this going even if you should raise the funds. I admire the desire, but this sort of seat-of-the-pants approach is ill advised, IMHO. 

FWIW, BG saying he'll tell anyone who doesn't have $250k to f-off is part of the problem. 

[Evan Baird]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

[Johnny Alien]

I agree.  $250,000 is actually a large amount of money for this business as it is. If it was "chump change" he would have gotten an offer by now.  But he wants to hold on to the most profitable and easy to take over portion which is the tires.

[Eric Norris]

Vincent van Gogh committed suicide after years of mental illness and poverty (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vincent_van_Gogh).

Bruce has made (I would hope) a good living producing bikes for other people. He owns some now that he can sell, but he might have an inflated idea of their value. I hope he was setting aside something over the years in a 401k to cover his retirement.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Orc]

Does anyone make a /good/ living framebuilding, or is it just that some framebuilders can do a good job of pretending that they're living lives of opulent excess while actually bailing like mad to keep ahead of the constant inflow of one expense after another?

Shoot, Riv itself seems like a much bigger and more stable business than BG, but every now and then Grant still posts a "ohmygodwe'redrowninghere" article on the Riv weblog.

-david parsons

[Evan Baird]

I don't believe that is the case. Knowing how much his tires cost to make there's no way he's going to retire on that alone.

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think anybody is making a killing building frames. If you were smart and lucky and didn't get hosed by business partners, you became Ritchey Logic. BG never reached that level of mass market penetration, and now just wants to unload his shop and sell some tires. I hope it works out for him, but I don't see the buyer coming from someone else's GoFundMe campaign.

[sameness]

Any way he'd just help design some frames, give 'em the Pope's blessing for an annual plus per-unit licensing agreement, then allow someone else to foot the startup costs and job 'em out to Toyo or Maxway?

Keep the name alive, keep the frames coming, keep a regular income, and keep his skin out of the game.

I own a Hikari with BG on the head tube, and/but the bike is no worse off for his having never put a torch to it.

Dunno.

Jeff "Never Met Him" Hagedorn
Los Angeles, CA USA

[Brewster Fong]

The boutique custom steel framebuilding business isn't easy. I understand that one of the best, Mark DiNucci gets about $5500 for his framesets but he doesn't have a big wait list. The two steel framebuilders who supposedly have 5+ year wait list and can command top dollar for their framesets, i.e., $5500+ per frameset are Richard Sachs and Sasha White/Vanilla.

Others like Dave Kirk and Dave Wages/Ellis Cycles don't have as long a waitlist, but are getting about $4000/frameset.  Still are others like Rivendell, who I believe contracts with Mark Nobilette (sp?), and Waterford and they get about $3500+ per frameset.

BG is old school and his framesets go for top dollar too. I just don't think he has much business. Framebuilding is a tough business. Ask Brent Steelman. He was asking $5000+ for his framesets and is now completely out of the business, choosing to sell imported rugs instead and I understand he's doing very well.

Good Luck!

[Eric Norris]

IMHO, Steelman priced himself out of the market. Nice frames that suddenly rocketed into the stratosphere in price while remaining pretty much the same.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Brewster Fong]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2017 at 2:10:23 PM UTC-7, Eric Norris wrote:

IMHO, Steelman priced himself out of the market. Nice frames that suddenly rocketed into the stratosphere in price while remaining pretty much the same.

I believe steelman's prices were similar to Sachs and Vanilla. The difference is they have excellent marketing and he didn't. Same goes for BG, his prices were the same and quality equal or better than the others, but his marketing isn't anywhere near what Sachs and Vanilla developed.

[R Gonet]

Gordon's attitude is a big turnoff for me.  If he wants to scrap his bikes and cut off his nose to spite his face, I say let him do it.  And ask him to post some photos for us to see it happen.

[Lee Legrand]

FWIW, BG sounds like any number of people I've worked with over the years - to be honest, as I've grown older myself, I feel that I've become less patient with these sorts of folks. But at a basic humanitarian level, I can see how BG deserves could use some help.

Hi Steve Chan,

I cannot comment about Bruce Gorden personally since I never spoken to him but the comments of his attitude or behavior seems consistent to what I have read over the internet over the years.

I use to think that as I got older, I became less tolerant of people when they did things that I disapprove of or did things which I thought were unnecessary and cruel.  I understand your frustration but I am actually going the opposite way to where I started of being more tolerant.  For a person who has left jobs because I felt excessively exploited and mistreated, my opinion, although you did not ask, is that you cant take it personally when have bad behaviors.  It is allowing people pull your strings and you are giving them license to do so.  People with bad attitudes hurt themselves in the end and it is no reflection on you as a person.

That was a hard lesson I had to learn because it had to be done repeatedly until I got it.  Its not you so do not take it personally and do not allow anyone to take away your peace.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:02 AM, R Gonet <rgone...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gordon's attitude is a big turnoff for me.  If he wants to scrap his bikes and cut off his nose to spite his face, I say let him do it.  And ask him to post some photos for us to see it happen.

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[Chris Birkenmaier]

Been offline for a little lately with a graduation to attend, and other life events.  I'm glad to see some reasoned remarks posted on this plan to either fund BG's retirement or he will scap all his bikes.  That struck me as almost a gag post but I see that it is not.  Perhaps he should have started an IRA years ago like many folks must do?  What a waste of resources to just destroy a bunch of bikes but hey, they are his to do so, I guess.  Pretty confident I will not be funding his retirement though.

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 11:32:15 AM UTC-4, Lee Legrand wrote:

FWIW, BG sounds like any number of people I've worked with over the years - to be honest, as I've grown older myself, I feel that I've become less patient with these sorts of folks. But at a basic humanitarian level, I can see how BG deserves could use some help.

Hi Steve Chan,

I cannot comment about Bruce Gorden personally since I never spoken to him but the comments of his attitude or behavior seems consistent to what I have read over the internet over the years.

I use to think that as I got older, I became less tolerant of people when they did things that I disapprove of or did things which I thought were unnecessary and cruel.  I understand your frustration but I am actually going the opposite way to where I started of being more tolerant.  For a person who has left jobs because I felt excessively exploited and mistreated, my opinion, although you did not ask, is that you cant take it personally when have bad behaviors.  It is allowing people pull your strings and you are giving them license to do so.  People with bad attitudes hurt themselves in the end and it is no reflection on you as a person.

That was a hard lesson I had to learn because it had to be done repeatedly until I got it.  Its not you so do not take it personally and do not allow anyone to take away your peace.

On Wed, May 24, 2017 at 11:02 AM, R Gonet <rgone...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gordon's attitude is a big turnoff for me.  If he wants to scrap his bikes and cut off his nose to spite his face, I say let him do it.  And ask him to post some photos for us to see it happen.

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[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Bruce has been uniformly helpful, even friendly, to me during at least half a dozen calls over the years.  Judge not, and all that...

Sent from my iPhone

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The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP ("Skadden") and is not performing legal service on behalf of Skadden. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or probonolaw.com domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on behalf of Skadden or its affiliates.

[Orc]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2017 at 8:50:20 AM UTC-7, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:

 Perhaps he should have started an IRA years ago like many folks must do?

There was an article about BG a few years back in Adventure Cycling(I think?  A pdf was posted somewhere -- not here -- in the middle of a "beat up on Bruce Gordon" fest) where he estimated that his average yearly income over the 40 years or so he'd been framebuilding was about $25k/year.   Thats, uh, not the sort of income that gives you a bountiful retirement egg. 

In the worst case he'll have social security (so we'll all be funding his retirement, thank goodness) and a tiny revenue stream from selling RnR tires, but that's edging close to catfood territory.

-david parsons

[Chris Birkenmaier]

No, $25,000 per year is not much.  But I guess at some point adults do need to make decisions on how best to use their talents, interests, and education in pursuing a career.  Some  job choices just do not generate much income but presumably do afford the person other positive reasons for conducting their lives in a given fashion.

[Joe Bernard]

This "scrap the bikes" myth is becoming legend. Come on, folks, I don't think BG honestly intends to destroy his bikes, he was just frustrated and howling at the moon when talking to a fellow industry guy. Is what I think.

[John]

Hi Evan,

    In the past, you have been very helpful with answers to my questions here on the RBW Owners Bunch, and I thank you again.

    However, and I say this respectfully, if your pitch doesn't go over well, you change and refine your sales pitch. You do not lose your temper or insult your prospective investors or donors.

   I wish you success, but minus a clear business plan, your pitch raises questions and suspicions. It also doesn't help for your partner to insult the members of RBW & iBOB, accusing them of racism. I, myself, am of Mexican / American descent. My partner is also of Mexican / American descent. Our ancestors were here before the war, the Mexican-American War. Our families say, "We didn't move, the border did."  And we ride bikes! No one on the RBW or the iBOB list insulted POC.

    In summary:  Pitch for Donations + Questions from Prospective Donors + Angry Retorts & Accusations of Racism = RED FLAG!!!

Please go back to the drawing board and refine your pitch and your business plan.

Wishing you success with your new school and museum,

John 

    

On Monday, May 22, 2017 at 8:40:21 PM UTC-7, Evan Baird wrote:

Cross Post from BOB

[Norma Herrera-Baird]

Hi All, 

I'm Evan's partner, Norma. I've skimmed through this and see lots of questions regarding the business side of things, especially what exactly happens if/when we reach our goal so decided to jump in, since that's my area of expertise. 

Whether or not we reach the goal, the money is going to Bruce. We setup the GoFundMe to send the monies directly to BG, so we'll never see a cent of it. 

Should we reach the $250,000, we will be co-owners of BGC along with a group of carefully selected members of our bike community. These people will include bike shop owners, builders, bike activists and people from the Bike!Bike! community. Our end goal will be a museum and bike building & repair school fit to honor BG's legacy. Bruce himself will be around to teach us and our students everything he knows. (by the way, admission to the first class of the school will be an offered perk on GoFundMe); We will be turning the for-profit company into a non-profit collective, with a mission to guide the next generation of bicycle artisans and advocate for better biking. 

What qualifies *me* personally to be a part of this? Glad you asked! I'm currently the ED of a non-profit museum, was on the staff of California's statewide bike advocacy organization before that; and was on the board of a bike collective in Oakland. I've served as an advisor to multiple bike collectives across the country and my personal network of bike activists and enthusiasts is worldwide.

We also have an educator on our team, to guide us in designing and implementing the curriculum.  

I hope that answers most of the questions asked. Please email me directly for follow-up, as I will not be receiving alerts from this Group.

Ride on,

Norma 

[BG]

Please give me a call on my cell phone (707) 762-4107.

There are many misconceptions about my business.

Regards,
Bruce Gordon
Bruce Gordon Cycle

www.bgcycles.com

brucegordoncycles.blogspot.com
(707) 762-5601