Hilltrek Ventile Cotton Analogy Sale

[Deacon Patrick]

Best rain jacket I’ve ever had, going on over five years now. No affiliation, just a very satisfied customer. 20% off cotton analogy through August. https://hilltrek.co.uk/shop-by-material/cotton-analogy/

With abandon,

Patrick

www.CredoFamily.org

www.MindYourHeadCoop.org

[WETH]

I have been eyeing those. Thanks for heads up on the discount. Might still be a bit too pricey for my budget, but I have a few days to ponder. Do you have the smock? Did you size up to allow layering underneath or does the garment fit loose in your recommended size (going by chest measurement)?
Thanks again

[Deacon Patrick]

I wear their Foinaven Smock. https://hilltrek.co.uk/clothing/smocks/foinaven-smock/
I got it in red after my brain healed to the point I was riding trafficed roads and needed to be seen. Before that, I had a blue Liathach Smock, but found I didn’t need the extra features (my wife wears it now ... she is too smart to ride when it’s wet or frozen out!).

If I was getting a jacket only for cycling, I’d size down to a medium smock (they don’t offer their greenspot cycling jacket in cotton analogy), but since I also want to layer under, I am happy with the large. Yes, they size jackets up accordingly. Mine is a large, and that is what I generally wear in a shirt (either M long or L long, my monkey arms make it tricky). I do fine with even a boiled wool sweater underneith, though just.

I’ve talked the ventile and Cotton Analogy up before, but I’ll repeat a few things for anyone new:

The “analogy” part is a liner that actively pushes moisture out (both humidity and liquid) and essentially makes the jacket suitable as an insulative layer, so while the jacket is bulkier than plastic/nylon/goretex jackets, it replaces a wool shirt layer. Be aware of this, as if you want the jacket for warm/wet (which I don’t wear a jacket for) you will swelter. The jacket is perfect for Scotland/Colorado wet, where temps are 60’s or far lower when it rains or snows.

Expectations when wearing: Once the outter “fake” waterproofing wears off, the jacket feels better and I think functions better, but it functions by swelling the outer layer’s cotton fibers to make them water proof. Moisture from exhurtion is then pushed out by the liner. So, the jacket gets wet and stiff from the water absorption, but the liner keeps this from soaking through to you as well as getting rid of sweat.

With abandon,
Patrick

[ascpgh]

Add my voice lauding the Hiltrek Ventile products. 

Patrick (and a few others) helped me target a garment a bit less water proof, but more breathable for use in a wider temperature band than the cotton analogy line. We should all be thanking Hiltrek for keeping Patrick and his camera out on his bike in the woods during the cold, wet and dark part of each of our cycling years. 

The bottom line made me gulp at first but after reviewing the number and cost of the series of miracle high tech "waterproof-breathable" garments which each proved to be neither in practical use but also not very durable, I realized that the right tool is always more costly up front. I'm headed into the stretch of the year for my Braemar Ventile Hybrid smock and could not be happier with its performance and durability. 

Sizing charts on the Hiltrek website helped substantiate my size choice regarding chest size, arm length, etc. My stock sized item allows some layering for the coldest of my commutes (-12°F last year) and lets there be some airspace when more temperate. My short torso for height build lets the tail be plenty for staying covered when on the bike. They do custom sizing for much less than I expected, but didn't need. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Tom Wyland]

Andy,

-12F Commute in Western PA!  Way to go!

Tom

(grew up in chilly Western PA but not resides in weeny winter Virginia)

[Deacon Patrick]

Andy brings up an excellent point, and so I’ll break out the basics of a temperature guide for the different fabrics (shift 10-20˚F depending on your own comfort levels at cold or warm temps):

Raining in the 70’s and up: no jacket.

50’s and 60’s: The more humid it is, the hotter any jacket is going to feel, but if raining, the hybrid will be most comfortable/effective, with double ventile and cotton analogy being warmer, but easily controled via ventilation and removing layers. I’ve learned I like the stiffness of the wet hood against hail. Sardonic grin. Single ventile will keep you dry in a shower, but will soak/seep through after only 5-15 minutes.

20’s through 40’s: Hybrid, double ventile, and Cotton analogy all roughly equal at temp management and external moisture protection. Being wet in these temps is a real danger zone, for if one has to stop for whatever reason while wet, cold is rapidly magnified. This is the temp range I find cotton analogy excells at actively removing moisture from exhertion, keeping me drying inside so that if I stop, I dry off rather quickly. Fishnet longjohn top is very helpful with moisture/temp management here as well.

Teens and below: At these temps, exterior moisture isn’t the issue. Wind and interior moisture are the challenges. Any windblocking layer that breaths well works excellently here. A standard canvas jacket works. The only key here is managing insulative layers to exhertion level, so less while riding, more when stopped. Moisture management becomes critical at temps below zero F because if you are damp inside while exherting and have to stop, you will enter hypothermia very quickly. So having extra layers to add quickly is essential, as is proper ventilation. This is also where fishnet longjohn shirt is very helpful.

With abandon,
Patrick

[Mark Schneider]

Patrick,

I bought the Greenspot a few years ago after I read your recommendation. (The analogy being too warm for my climate zone)The dual layer is very warm but the fabric keeps me dry and comfortable as long as it's cool enough out. The fabric breaths much better than GoreTex or the cheaper laminates. I love all the pockets on the Greenspot it great for all cool weather outdoor activity.

Mark

[John Bokman]

Patrick, You've spoken to this before, so excuse my poor memory. I'm having difficulty choosing between the 2x ventile and hybrid fabrics. I know in practice, where i ride (Western Oregon), my arms will get wet if I'm not in a plastic fabric. Im therefore thinking 2x Ventile might be a better choice for me than Hybrid. Yes, it's good to have additional protection at shoulders, but if the arms are soaked, that's not real pleasant. Problem is, in 2x Ventile, there is no "Blaze" orange to be seen. only the colors i'd want when trail walking. 

I was one of the early customers of their single ventile gilet, and like it very much. Perhaps not "waterproof" but comfortable, good zippers, good pockets, and in (at least partial, if not all) blaze orange.

On Wednesday, August 29, 2018 at 9:44:59 AM UTC-7, Mark Schneider wrote:

Patrick,

I bought the Greenspot a few years ago after I read your recommendation. (The analogy being too warm for my climate zone)The dual layer is very warm but the fabric keeps me dry and comfortable as long as it's cool enough out. The fabric breaths much better than GoreTex or the chex aper laminates. I love all the pockets on the Greenspot it great for all cool weather outdoor activity.

[Deacon Patrick]

John, I’d recommend double ventile or cotton analogy for what you just described. Single layer soaks through where horizontal, such as sleeves on a bike, or sitting and enjoying a pipe. For blaze orange (or red, which I prefer, because it is equally visible, but not flourescent and thus bikey/racy and so people seem to be friendlier), I’d email them.

With abandon,
Patrick

[john Bokman]

Thanks Patrick!
Interestingly, the 2x Ventile is the same weight as Cotton Analogy. I’d rather buy all cotton “all things equal” unless there is a clear reason to do otherwise. I like the smock option best, BTW. Less zipper, perhaps slightly more cumbersome to put on, but the kangaroo pockets are a real bonus for me. (I’d upset to the side zips, as well.)

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[Deacon Patrick]

John, the “clear reason” for me to go with cotton analogy is it removes moisture via capilary action. Otherwise, I agree, all cotton would be preferable.

With abandon,
Patrick

[ascpgh]

John, that's the item I have now, their Braemar smock, in red. 

Fluorescent colors in fabrics are a bit more susceptible to UV degradation of the pigments that produce the fluorescent color effect. The base fabric dictates the  necessity of chemical characteristics of a coloring dye, cotton is one of the hardest to accommodate. If interested: https://www.aatcc.org/media/Read/Newsletter/archive/2013/01A/The_Perils_and_Pitfalls_of_Dyeing_Neon_Colors.PDF

Back in my late '80s outdoor retail days, when fluorescent ("neon") colors ruled ski gear, we had a one day in the window policy for displays. They were rotated to even the exposure and the merchandisers had worksheets that were kept by the displays near the UV blocking windows because we observed fade from brief display in direct sunlight despite the glass choice, even non-fluorescent colors. 

In that same era Grant wrote in the 1991 Bridgestone catalog about color: https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bridgestone/1991/pages/bridgestone-1991-17.htm

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[john Bokman]

Thanks Patrick and Andy for your assistance. Very interesting about the coloration of cottons. I had no idea.

I’m not one who would wear “neon” green or yellow, but I’m partial to a “warm” color like orange or red to be seen on the road.

Guys: Do you have size zips for your smock? I would suspect they’d not only help with removal but with allowing more airflow?

I assume with the weight of the smock being over 2#, I would only need a thin layer underneath and I’d be plenty warm. Most of my rain season (8 months a year)  riding is done at (wet) temperatures between 35-60 degrees. 

Any additional comments on your products and use are welcome as I try to make choices. I’m sick and tired of burning through plastics, no matter how “advanced” or “improved”.

[Deacon Patrick]

John, I found the zips to be of minimal use and annoying on the bike, having to tuck the front flap under to prevent flapping with each pedal stroke. The standard smock easily bunches up a bit at the waist in front, still being longer to cover my rear. My newer red smock does not have them and I prefer their absence. Ventilation via neck and wrist openings works well.

I of course still sweat when riding, so repenting on temp, under layers get damp (similar to a cotton long sleeve shirt on a hot day), and dry out quickly. At temps below 40, a fishnet baselayer goes a long way to aiding this moisture management.

With abandon,
Patrick

[ascpgh]

I didn't option my Braemar with side zips, I get how they could be helpful when getting out of the smock/anorak. Available on the customization options for 50 BSP. As airflow is concerned, with my neck zip down and the pit zips opened up, ventilation is not an issue. Certainly not for the complication and $65 of the option. I vote with entropy; avoid unnecessary complexities to assure prolonged baseline function.

I am very pleased with my garment and simply ecstatic to have found something that is not synthetic, crunchy, stiff, and noisy. My experiences with technical shells has been highlighted by inferior water repelling performance, poor vapor ventilation, and lack of sustained function or durability under regular use. I think my 2-3 year cycle of disappointment with shell jackets is over now.

I picked red as Patrick did for the visibility practicality. I have both a reflective mesh Nathan safety vest and reflective Tuvizo belt/shoulder strap rig to wear on top if my visibility concerns are greater than that. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[john Bokman]

Andy, I didn’t realize the Braemar had pit zips? I don’t see this detail on their specifications page. Pit zips would certainly help in airflow no matter what the fabric.

You have the DV or the Hybrid?

[ascpgh]

John, you're right and I've lost my mind! Ghosts of previous shells that needed pit zips any more have addled me. Only dropping the front zip has been necessary to get all the venting needed (duh, that was the primary attraction of Ventile to me).

Sorry for the confusion. It clearly has been warm enough that I've been without my Braemar's use for some months. 

Side note: Farmer's Almanac says it's going to be very cold and snowy here. I'll be in it daily for long stretches soon.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

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[John Bokman]

Well, I opted for the 2x Ventile Greenspot jacket, even though I was really interested in a smock. It won't be here for 6-8 weeks, so won't be able to report for a while yet.

I wanted the jacket because it will be primarily used as a commuting/general purpose jacket, and a zipper is more convenient for me  in those situations. If I were buying a specific use garment I'd rather go with the smock.

And based on the interesting notes from Andy about color impregnation, I opted for dull, drab Olive green, because, for my use, it's more versatile. If I want to be seen - I do - I'll employ a vest of some sort over the jacket when it's truly dark. 

Thanks to you guys who chimed in with thoughts, impressions, and opinions.

BTW, Dave over at Hilltrek is very helpful, and prompt with his responses to my many questions over the internet.

[Eamon Nordquist]

John, please do post some pictures when your Greenspot arrives.

Eamon