Rapha has love for Rivendell

[William]

After all the Rapha discussion last week I went ahead and signed up to
the Rapha email list. Maybe someday they'll have a sale or I'll want
to treat myself to something. Anyway, today they emailed out a
customer survey, and offered a 10% discount if you complete it. So I
went ahead and filled it out. One of the questions asked you to check
the box next to any of the following brands that you find
interesting. There were about 25 brands listed: component
manufacturers, clothing lines, etc. There were only five bike brands
in the list: Colnago, Cervelo, Trek, Specialized, and Rivendell. I
found that kind of cool, and kind of a surprise.

[Aaron Thomas]

Yep. I got the same survey today and thought that was pretty cool. But
I didn't find it all that surprising. When I went on one of Rapha's
"Gentleman's Rides" a few years ago, many of their Continental team
riders commented very favorably on my Romulus and my friend's
Bleriot.

Moreover, unlike the comments one often gets from race-oriented club
riders who frown upon wide tires or road bikes that are off-road
capable, the Rapha riders on that day were grooving on the Col de la
Vie tires on my friend's Bleriot. We also got to talking about the
Challenge Parigi-Roubaix tires, which at that point still hadn't been
released, and a couple of the Rapha riders expressed a vivid interest
in trying them, especially for some of their rides that cover both
pavement and dirt.

In sum, the impression I got from the Rapha guys that day was that
they appreciated Rivendell as a company, as well as the idea of riding
both paved and unpaved surfaces on road bikes.

[Mike]

Some of the people associated with the Rapha Continnental rides are
small frame builders--Ira Ryan and Tony Pereira to name two--so I can
see how they would appreciate Rivish bikes. I certainly appreciate
their enthusiasm for cycling, not just selling swag, but actually
getting on a bike and riding.

--mike

[Michael_S]

Kinda goes back to what a few of us said last week. Rapha and
Rivendell share much more in philosophy and market demographics than
some think.
They both share excellent marketing strategies too.
I'll have to join that email list as well. Thanks for the info.

~Mike~

[XO-1.org Rough Riders]

It doesn't appear to me that Rivendell has a "marketing strategy,"
other than running small ads in Bicycle Quarterly and Adventure
Cyclist...

[BPu...@aol.com]

Are you kidding? The whole Homer Hilsen hype with the epic poem and everything? It was brilliant! Unfortunately, whoever came up with that campaign, wasn't there for the Roadeo or later models.

[dpco]

i don't have any facts to back this up, but i think that the roadeo is
doing quite well. the "homer" is the star of rivendell, period.
country bike, that can be used for many purposes. living in the san
joaquin valley and basically, a club rider, the roadeo fits me. and, i
still have that rivendell handling. the "homer" and the "atlantis" are
their stellar examples of the riv thing, but the roadeo is a slight
variation of this theme, and a very good one. when i picked up my
roadeo frameset, i was bs'ing with a hilsen owner that was really
excited about his new roadeo purchase. he uses his hilsen for
commuting( fendered ) and was going to use the roadeo for his weekend
club rides. bottom line, i think that grant and company hit the nail
on the head with their promotion of the roadeo.
don c.

On Jun 3, 6:12 pm, BPus...@aol.com wrote:
> Are you kidding? The whole Homer Hilsen hype with the epic poem and  
> everything? It was brilliant! Unfortunately, whoever came up with that campaign,  
> wasn't there for the Roadeo or later models.
>
> In a message dated 6/3/2010 8:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>

[JoelMatthews]

> Are you kidding? The whole Homer Hilsen hype with the epic poem and
> everything? It was brilliant! Unfortunately, whoever came up with that campaign,
> wasn't there for the Roadeo or later models.

Really, where did Grant Peterson go? GP wrote the epic poem.

There was nothing about the Hilsen launch - or any Riv campaign - that
reaches the overstated hyperbole of Rapha marketing.

Riv and Rapha make expensive merchandise for cyclists. Other than
that, there is nothing shared between the two. GP mentions a lot of
competing cycle (as well as other) merchandise. I have never once
read anything from him about Rapha.

On Jun 3, 8:12 pm, BPus...@aol.com wrote:
> Are you kidding? The whole Homer Hilsen hype with the epic poem and  
> everything? It was brilliant! Unfortunately, whoever came up with that campaign,  
> wasn't there for the Roadeo or later models.
>
> In a message dated 6/3/2010 8:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>

[XO-1.org Rough Riders]

Yes, perhaps "brilliant" for the extant Riv fans who read it, but
"marketing" implies reaching beyond the current fan/customer base. I
don't see that happening, and never really have.

On Jun 3, 6:12 pm, BPus...@aol.com wrote:

> Are you kidding? The whole Homer Hilsen hype with the epic poem and  
> everything? It was brilliant! Unfortunately, whoever came up with that campaign,  
> wasn't there for the Roadeo or later models.
>
> In a message dated 6/3/2010 8:30:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,  
>

[John Speare]

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:26 PM, XO-1.org Rough Riders
<adventu...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Yes, perhaps "brilliant" for the extant Riv fans who read it, but
> "marketing" implies reaching beyond the current fan/customer base. I
> don't see that happening, and never really have.
>

I guess it depends on how one defines "marketing."

I define it as promoting your products so people buy them. Aside from
his abilities at getting interesting bikes built/shipped in our
current world (which is a huge talent), I think marketing is Grant
Petersen's strongest strength.

I've had Bridgestone catalogs, Rivendell catalogs, and Readers laying
around my house for years. Many times, non-bikey friends have picked
up this stuff, read it, and remarked on how just reading this stuff
makes them want to ride a bike.

GP has a way of mareketing a lifestyle that feels very un-marketing-y:
humble, straight-forward, folksy, personable, approriately technical,
reasonable, etc... it certainly pulled me in many years ago, and still
charms me and makes me want to buy his stuff.

For the most part, I think "marketing" deserves a bad rap -- it's
often a pack of lies or manipulation of our fears or sentimental
sucker punches. But in GP's case, marketing appears to be an extension
of the Riv "ethic." It's sort of marketing at it's best: just telling
the story of your products with as much genuine honesty as you
reasonably can.

But in the end, I still see it as marketing.
--
John Speare
Spokane, WA USA
http://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com/

[Michael_S]

Grant's marketing skills are so good some people don't even think he
has any.... that is the ultimate compliment in my book.
we all keep tuned in to his website and this forum waiting for the
next bike or gadget...

What both Rapha and Rivendell have done is create a niche of dedicated
customers for their high end bicycling products and both have been
reasonably successful in their own ways.
Different approaches but similar in their customer base... those
willing to pay a premium for quality bicycling products.

My comments were meant as compliments to both for creating niches
that otherwise would not exist.

~Mike~

On Jun 3, 8:46 pm, John Speare <johnspe...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 8:26 PM, XO-1.org Rough Riders
>

[newenglandbike]

To many people 'marketing' is a strictly contrived, usually
disingenuous effort to sell products. It's hard not to think of it
that way, given the amount of advertisement present in the U.S. for
stuff we don't need and wouldn't otherwise want. The best marketers
are able to convince themselves that what they are selling is actually
good.

What separates Grant Petersen from those marketers is that GP does not
need to convince himself of anything- he obviously really likes
what he sells, or he wouldn't have brought it to market or decided to
sell it. I think people can tell this is so, and it's refreshing to
them, and so they become Rivendell customers.


As for the Rivendell Reader: while it contains a fair amount of
advocacy for Rivendell's products, it is clear that Grant Petersen
would be happy writing about these things even if they were some other
company's products. GP often does that in the RR anyway (writes in
praise of non-affiliated company products, that Rivendell does not
sell). Of course much of the RR has nothing to do with products, or
even to do with bicycles, but with various other tangents, usually
interesting to those who like bicycles and camping.

[JoelMatthews]

> My comments were meant as compliments to both for creating niches
> that otherwise would not exist.

I think this statement goes too far.

Riv and Rapha are strong players in their respective niches. Both are
doing better than one might have thought looking at the industry
10years ago.

However, there were many top line cycle clothing companies before
Rapha. There are many excellent alternatives to Rapha, albeit perhaps
none with the marketing zing.

As we all ought to know by now, Grant started Riv after Bridgestone
dropped his line of bikes. Under Grant, Bridgestone made a well
respected line of lugged steel bikes. But it was hardly the only
player at the time. Likewise today. Even if you leave out the many
full custom lugged steel bike makers out there selling close to Riv
prices (sometimes below!) there are Waterford in the U.S.and Toei,
Panasonic and a few others in Japan all of which make similar products
(two of which make Rivendell products).

For the record, I am with those who say GP's marketing is part and
parcel apart from Rapha's. Both obviously get the job done. Other
than that, no similar philosophy.

> > Spokane, WA USAhttp://cyclingspokane.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[PATRICK MOORE]

My take? Riv has no marketing strategy as such; instead they have Grant's (a) love of bicycles and (b) whimsical humor. My sense is that the names, poems, etc. are not at all deliberate, thought out marketing tactics and strategies as commonly understood -- I write many upper level marketing resumes, and I know how that works.

Grant said long ago that Riv is product driven, not market driven, and I believe that is still true -- and, paradoxically, that that is the reason it has succeeded. Basically: Riv loves bikes and they are lucky enough to have found a niche to make a modest financial success from their love.

Now my take on VO is that that combines more deliberate marketing, a la Rapha, for example, along with a genuine love of products.

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[Patrick in VT]

On Jun 4, 8:53 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> > My comments were meant as compliments to both for creating niches
> > that otherwise would not exist.
>
> I think this statement goes too far.

I don't. I think Mike is spot on. without riv, there wouldn't be
$150 tweed saddle pouches and folks tweeking over what shellac/cloth
tape combination will best compliment their bikes. and to my
knowledge, there isn't a bicycle clothing company that goes around the
country documenting awesome rides and encouraging others to ride them
by posting cue sheets and photo-journaling everything.

it's not just about their products. both appeal to a lifestyle, and
the two certainly are not mutually exclusive.

> For the record, I am with those who say GP's marketing is part and
> parcel apart from Rapha's. Both obviously get the job done. Other
> than that, no similar philosophy.

philosophy . ... hmm. both are appreciate and promote steel
bicycles. both are concerned with quality. both are concerned with
aesthetics. seems similar. am i being too objective?

[PATRICK MOORE]

I said: My take? Riv has no marketing strategy as such; instead they have Grant's (a) love of bicycles and (b) whimsical humor. My sense is that the names, poems, etc. are not at all deliberate, thought out marketing tactics and strategies as commonly understood -- I write many upper level marketing resumes, and I know how that works.

John said:

On Thu, Jun 3, 2010 at 9:46 PM, John Speare <johns...@gmail.com> wrote:

For the most part, I think "marketing" deserves a bad rap -- it's
often a pack of lies or manipulation of our fears or sentimental
sucker punches. But in GP's case, marketing appears to be an extension
of the Riv "ethic." It's sort of marketing at it's best: just telling
the story of your products with as much genuine honesty as you
reasonably can.

But in the end, I still see it as marketing.
--

I believe that John got it more right than I did. Yes, marketing, but a direct expression of his somewhat whimsical love of bikes and related products. But not an LLBean creation of "a certain atmosphere" or, IMO, even a VO or Rapha "image" -- I believe that Grant is too honest for a deliberate creation of "image" -- the image is simply what he believes and loves.

And I bet he hates being analyzed in this way on list. Sorry ...

[JoelMatthews]

> I don't. I think Mike is spot on. without riv, there wouldn't be
> $150 tweed saddle pouches and folks tweeking over what shellac/cloth
> tape combination will best compliment their bikes.

Is that Riv's niche? I always thought it was making lugged steel
bikes.

In any event, Carradice, Berthoud, Ostrich and some other Japanese
brands I am too lazy to look up at the moment, predate Riv and exist
independently of Riv.

> philosophy . ... hmm. both are appreciate and promote steel
> bicycles. both are concerned with quality. both are concerned with
> aesthetics. seems similar. am i being too objective?

The correct term would be Fallacy of Accident. You are assuming some
general similarities make the two alike.

Rapha makes a decent line of product - as good as, but not necessarily
better than many other available cycling clothes. Rapha uses glossy
internet, bike show, evet and media sales promotion to move more of
its product at higher prices than many of its competitors.

Riv makes somewhat unique lugged steel bikes. As Patick Moore, I and
others point out, Riv does not really have a marketing campaign per
se. Certainly nothing as calculated and carefully executed as Rapha.

It is certanly not objective to say Rapha and Riv share similar
business philosophies.

[Patrick in VT]

On Jun 4, 10:13 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:

> Is that Riv's niche? I always thought it was making lugged steel
> bikes.

as I said, Joel - it's about more than products. did you not read
that part of my post? to be clear and keep things in the context,
there is a niche of riders who identify with Rivendell very strongly.
there is a niche of riders who also identify with Rapha. these are
the niches I assumed Mike was referring to - that seemed rather
obvious to me. and I agree that they wouldn't exist to the extent
that they do without companies like riv and rapha.

> The correct term would be Fallacy of Accident. You are assuming some
> general similarities make the two alike.

no, I didn't. you wrote that there is no similar philosophy. I
provided 3 specific, not general, examples of core values (philosophy)
they have in common - appreciation for steel bikes, craftsmanship/
quality and style.

>It is certanly not objective to say Rapha and Riv share similar business philosophies.

I didn't write anything about *business* philosophies. is that the
"philosophy" you were referring to? if so, I misconstrued.

[JoelMatthews]

> and I agree that they wouldn't exist to the extent that they do without companies like riv and rapha.

Perhaps if we limit the niche to one in the United States (which would
seem curious, given Rapha is a British company and sells a lot of its
product in Europe) you could say tweed bags and shellaced tape would
not exist but for Riv. They were around well before Rive in Europe -
especially the UK and France - and certainly in Japan where there has
long been a French bike cult.

> no, I didn't. you wrote that there is no similar philosophy. I
> provided 3 specific, not general, examples of core values (philosophy)
> they have in common - appreciation for steel bikes, craftsmanship/
> quality and style.

I believe the three categories you provide remain far too broad to
create an objective tautology. I concede some others here appear
convinced.

> I didn't write anything about *business* philosophies. is that the
> "philosophy" you were referring to? if so, I misconstrued.

Rapha and Riv are businesses. What other philosophy would they have?

GP appears to follow what he likes and hopes enough agree that he and
his employees make a living. Rapha uses a well conceived and executed
marketing plan to convince people to pay more for merchandise it makes
than similar merchandise made by its competitors.

[rswa...@me.com]

On Jun 4, 2010, at 8:58 AM, JoelMatthews <joelma...@mac.com> wrote:

GP appears to follow what he likes and hopes enough agree that he and
his employees make a living.  Rapha uses a well conceived and executed
marketing plan to convince people to pay more for merchandise it makes
than similar merchandise made by its competitors.

I always hear this, but with a few exceptions, Rapha stuff isn't more expensive than their competitors. 

A quick glance through the latest Colorado Cyclist catalog shows many shorts and jerseys priced higher. Rapha seems to be in the middle of the range of the fancy brands (Capo, Castelli, Campy, Assos, Panache). Just like Rivendell, you can spend more, less, or even a lot less and get gear that does the job. 

We had a slow night at work and a perused the Rapha site and I don't really see the crazy hyperbole everyone talks about. The product pages seemed mostly descriptive. Of course they were positive, they're selling the stuff. The other articles and features seemed to be mostly about the joys of riding.

I liked this quote:

"Over and over I watch my peers complain right up until the moment where the clap of the cleat into the pedal resonates through their body. And then it is all gone. The complaints and problems that previously occupied the mind have winked out into nonexistence, and in their stead, the foolish grins of people enjoying themselves."

I still see the two companies as strikingly similar. Reading both their respective propaganda, I find that occasionally I want to buy their products, but more often, it makes me want to go out and ride. Of course my friends would say that making me want to ride is like shooting fish in a barrel!

  

Sorry for Keeping this Rapha thread going.

Cheers,

Ryan, Riv & Rapha Fan

 

 

[JoelMatthews]

We had a slow night at work and a perused the Rapha site and I don't
really see the crazy hyperbole everyone talks about. The product pages
seemed mostly descriptive. Of course they were positive, they're
selling the stuff. The other articles and features seemed to be mostly
about the joys of riding.

My reference to the hyperbole concerns their bike show booths, videos
and magazine ads. I expect any sensible on line sales company will
avoid putting too much silly stuff on their sales web site. That sort
of thing tends to slow the buying process, driving away customers.

On Jun 4, 10:30 am, rswat...@me.com wrote:

[Patrick in VT]

On Jun 4, 10:58 am, JoelMatthews <joelmatth...@mac.com> wrote:
> > and I agree that they wouldn't exist to the extent that they do without companies like riv and rapha.
>

> Perhaps if we limit the niche . .. .

> > and I agree that they wouldn't exist to the extent that they do without companies like riv and rapha.
>
> Perhaps if we limit the niche to one in the United States (which would
> seem curious, given Rapha is a British company and sells a lot of its
> product in Europe) you could say tweed bags and shellaced tape would
> not exist but for Riv.

there's no need to limit it. and for the *third* time, it's not solely
about product. to be clear, there is a distinct niche of riders that
identifies with the Riv brand and "rivvish" cycling. same with
Rapha. both engage in lifestyle branding (that's not to say they go
about it the same way), and this helps to develop the niches they are
helping to define and support - not sure why this is at all
controversial.

> I believe the three categories you provide remain far too broad to
> create an objective tautology. I concede some others here appear
> convinced.

please elaborate on why you believe my examples are subjective and/or
illogical.

core value - "steel is real": no explanation needed for Riv. Sachs,
Davidson, Bilenky, Lyon, Hunter, IF, Igleheart, et al. have made
bicycles for the rapha continental team. it obviously appreciates the
craft of framebuilding with steel and supports it.

core value - "quality": both have very high standards for what they
sell. look at the time GP takes to do

core value - "style": no explanation needed.

if anything is "far too broad", it's the context in which we are
discussing "philosophy."

> Rapha and Riv are businesses. What other philosophy would they have?

that's an interesting perspective.

personally, as a cyclist, Riv and Rapha inspire me - they both remind
me of why life on a bike is fun. they encourage me to try new things
and take on challenges. seems to me that each has an underlying
philosophy that informs their approach to cycling and the stuff they
sell - which, in turn, informs my approach to cycling and the stuff I
buy. i see this as separate from their approach, or philosophy,
regarding "business."

[JoelMatthews]

> there's no need to limit it. and for the *third* time, it's not solely
> about product. to be clear, there is a distinct niche of riders that
> identifies with the Riv brand and "rivvish" cycling. same with
> Rapha. both engage in lifestyle branding (that's not to say they go
> about it the same way), and this helps to develop the niches they are
> helping to define and support - not sure why this is at all
> controversial.

My issue was with the Rapha and Riv having some exclusive or at least
a majority hold on the niche. A Japanese person riding a Toei, or a
French person on a Berthoud may fully appreciate all that we here say
is Rivvish while being completely unaware of the term - or possibly
even the Riv brand, for that matter.

> core value - "steel is real": no explanation needed for Riv. Sachs,
> Davidson, Bilenky, Lyon, Hunter, IF, Igleheart, et al. have made
> bicycles for the rapha continental team. it obviously appreciates the
> craft of framebuilding with steel and supports it.

Rapha is also involved with Carbon and Ti manufacturers as well. Riv
is strictly steel.

> core value - "quality": both have very high standards for what they
> sell. look at the time GP takes to do

There are many companies that make quality products. It does not mean
they share Riv's philosophical outlook.

> core value - "style": no explanation needed.

The same as above.

> personally, as a cyclist, Riv and Rapha inspire me - they both remind
> me of why life on a bike is fun. they encourage me to try new things
> and take on challenges. seems to me that each has an underlying
> philosophy that informs their approach to cycling and the stuff they
> sell - which, in turn, informs my approach to cycling and the stuff I
> buy. i see this as separate from their approach, or philosophy,
> regarding "business."

Designing, hiring manufacturers, selling merchandise, buying
merchandise, is what the retail business is all about. The fact you
like it - as do many, including myself - does not make it any less a
business. I would say it makes it a good business.

I will also continue to argue that Riv and Rapha while both successful
business models with overlapping market are nonetheless very different
business models.

[Esteban]

Something appears as "marketing" or even "propaganda" if it doesn't
match up with one's sensibilities. If a message does match up with
one's tastes & preferences, then it just appears as common sense.

The good thing about Riv, Rapha, and anything else bike-related - is
that it has a material use-value. So.... go out and use the stuff and
enjoy!

Aaron and I will be sporting Riv, Rapha, and Woolistic at the SDR
Kitchen Creek 200k tomorrow. We'll report on the ride, and how the
marketing influenced our experience :)

Esteban
San Diego, Calif.

[S.Cutshall]

Sorry, I've been out riding my bike...

what did I miss in this ongoing conversation?

[newenglandbike]

Beyond the fact that they are both in the bicycling business, I
personally don't see any similarity between the aesthetic or
'philosophy' of Rapha and Rivendell. One sells expensive bike
clothing made in China for the 'serious cyclist' (their words)*, and
the other seems to encourage riding in the same clothing, made in the
USA, for what it's worth, that you'd use to go to a barbecue, or work,
or on a guided tour of the California State Railroad museum. To me,
Rapha has about as much to do with bicycle commuting as Banana
Republic has to do with going on safari. No offense meant to anyone
who enjoys their stuff, but that's just how the marketing comes off to
me.



*to quote from Rapha's site: "Road racing is the toughest and most
beautiful sport in the world and everything Rapha does is designed to
celebrate the glory and suffering unique to road riders.... Road
racing requires stamina, strength, focus and fortitude, yet the
rewards can be huge – the more effort you put in the greater those
rewards become"

[Bruce]

I just received a Rapha cycling cap in the mail. You may recall it being advertised on this list recently. My 1st purchase of Rapha anything. (I was given a Rapha water bottle, but that's another story.) Anyway, the interior label, 70mm x 100mm in size and sewn to the underside of the crown, states, "Sartorial excellence for the discerning cyclist. Essential Performance Roadwear."  Now let me say that the cap is well designed, exhibits high manufacturing quality and feels great on my head. I would never buy one of these for ANY of the reasons printed on the label however. I like that it looks good, feels good, and will be a good Spring/Fall cap. It will not affect my cycling performance one iota, or make me feel natty.

It sells for $60 with an enameled pin (mine did not come with a pin)

I also have two Rivendell wool caps, both in orange and they are the older design and the current one. These Wooly Stubbies are unlined, but are also well made and the advertiding says so. "the embroidery seems to perfectly match the bill color. The proportions are perfect; the stitching, neat and consistent. We wear them all year long. "  Btw, I wear mine in the Summer too. Wool is excellent for sweat management.  These caps are $30 each and are of simpler construction, and no fancy label.

I think both caps are probably worth what they sell for, and will give good service when used as intended.  Riv's sales pitch is far more to my liking, but that's why over the past few years, I've accumulated lots of Riv stuff, and no Rapha stuff before this. And this only because as a used item and with a lower price, I could justify to myself.

---

From: newenglandbike <matthi...@gmail.com>
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Fri, June 4, 2010 7:12:09 PM
Subject: [RBW] Re: Rapha has love for Rivendell

[Steve Palincsar]

On Fri, 2010-06-04 at 17:38 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>
> I also have two Rivendell wool caps, both in orange and they are the
> older design and the current one. These Wooly Stubbies are unlined,
> but are also well made and the advertiding says so. "the embroidery
> seems to perfectly match the bill color. The proportions are perfect;
> the stitching, neat and consistent. We wear them all year long. "
> Btw, I wear mine in the Summer too. Wool is excellent for sweat
> management. These caps are $30 each and are of simpler construction,
> and no fancy label.

If you like the cap -- I have one and I love mine -- you can get them
directly from the maker. http://www.randijofab.com/ Formerly known as
Rainy Peak Cyclery, it's now Randi Jo's Fabrications. Here's a direct
link to the wool caps (they have other products as well)
https://www.randijofab.com/products/wool-caps

[Bruce]

Thanks for the link...

---

From: Steve Palincsar <pali...@his.com>

[PATRICK MOORE]

I'm very curious how y'all can see out from under those long bills. When I pull  a cap down snugly enough to keep it on my head (I do have thick and more than shoulder length hair in a pony tail, so my hats have to be firmly in place) the bill blocks my vision unless I am sitting bolt upright. Even on the hoods it gets in the way, and this is true even of ordinary cycling caps with shorter brims. I have very short, 4 cm brims on my caps, which are either custom made or altered.

So, do you sit bolt upright, or do your caps balance on the tops of your heads?

No, my forehead is not 1/2" high.

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[Steve Palincsar]

On Sat, 2010-06-05 at 05:42 -0600, PATRICK MOORE wrote:
> I'm very curious how y'all can see out from under those long bills.

Randi Jo's caps have very short bills -- but when I wear one under a
helmet I have it turned backwards, where it does not obscure my vision
and, incidentally, shades the back of my neck. I also cannot see the
road wearing a cap with a long bill.

[cyclotourist]

OK, while we're basking in hat love, I have to put a plug in for my local fave, Walz.  Great little cottage industry sort of a thing.  Run buy a couple down in Fallbrook.

http://walzcaps.com/

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Cheers,
David
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"Bicycling is a big part of the future. It has to be. There is something wrong with a society that drives a car to workout in a gym."  ~Bill Nye, scientist guy

[Philip Williamson]

Well...Where to start? Oh never mind. It's all about hats, now.

I've been pimping my bike with new brakes (CR720s) and I sanded and
shellacked my pedal platforms again. (http://tinyurl.com/
SkateDeckPedals) Not really riding, except to get places. And, I've
been eating food with friends, which is like a balm to my soul.

In summation: Rivendell is making food with friends and eating it on
your porch. Rapha is buying food with friends in a really cool
restaurant.

Philip
97128

[Bruce]

Rivendell is doing this in front of your tent on Mt. Diablo..

But I really like the simile.

---

From: Philip Williamson <philip.w...@gmail.com>

[William]

I personally think the Rapha thing represents something very good for
cycling, just like I think Rivendell represents something very good
for cycling. The thing they have in common, for me, is encouragement
and advocacy of an attitude towards cycling that expands the variety
of things that are cool about cycling. There are numerous other
companies that also expand the envelope of what cycling is. Ten years
ago, virtually all hard core roadies, or their associated wannabes
were all about team kits. Rapha has helped expand that, especially
with the Continental, to include wool, and stylish basic colors (and
black shorts!) back into the realm of high end roadie gear. Maybe
that look or vibe was cool all along, but no company that I know of
has lately presented that look as the height of fashion and style.
And there's still plenty of room for those who want to wear synthetic
team kits. Rivendell also goes against the conventional wisdom about
what a bicycle is and what a bicyclist dresses like. Lots of cyclists
think of Rivendell as an exclusivist pompous boutique because you can
buy a Surly for cheaper that is 'just as good'. And here are Rive
users implying (or stating outright) that Rapha wearers are some other
kind of stuck up fashionistas, while it's us that are the normal
everyman. I personally think it's a waste of tie for cyclist in
general to categorize themselves in to cliques and then figure out
ways to emphasize our differences. It seems to me that, at least in
my lifetime, cycling has never had a broader set of participants than
it does today, and I think that is extremely exciting. There's plenty
of room for all of us.

The Rapha upcoming Rapha project that I think is really cool is that
four riders are going to attempt to cover the 326km course of the Col
de la Tourmalet stage of the 1910 Tour de France. Whether or not you
think the pursuit of 'epicness' is misplaced machismo, I respect the
fact that much of their ethos is rooted in the history of cycling and
celebrating the possibilities of human achievement.


On Jun 5, 11:34 pm, Philip Williamson <philip.william...@gmail.com>
wrote:

[CycloFiend]

That's really well put, William.

I think one could throw an even wider lasso than that, to include the KoF's
involved with the Cirque du Cyclism, practical approaches like ANT, the
Oregon Manifest, the NA Handbuilt Shows, the anarchy of cyclocross and those
kids down the street who cobble together low-budget bikes out of cast off
bits. It's the core love of cycling which keeps these things going.

Cycling enthusiasts generally will evolve, and if they come to bicycles by
way of matching team kits and carbon bikes, that's fine too. As obvious as
good position, comfortable frames and having a great time out riding is to
us, we're a relative outlier in the perceived spectrum.

Visible companies like Rivendell, Rapha, etc., give folks a way to migrate
away from the racing paradigm. We help to recruit by example, knickers and
normal shorts, jerseys that don't stink and bikes that let us bring more
than a gel pack or two onto a stunning variety of trails.

Rivendell and Rapha are examples of relatively small, nimble companies able
exist because they focus on what makes sense to them, and as GP has overtly
written, they figure that it will interest other people too.

History is full of companies that went away because they were all hype and
image, while their products ranged from "meh" to craptaculous.

Both Rivendell and Rapha have elected to succeed or fail on their terms.
It's hard not to give that the respect it deserves.

One can certainly decide how and where to draw the line with one's
pocketbook, but I think it's impossible to make the case that we're not the
better for their existence.

- Jim

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Jim Edgar
Cyclo...@earthlink.net

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