Introduction and Tire Question

[Christine Justice]

Hello,

I'm Christine from Denver, CO. I'm a mom to three cats, one dog, and one Rivendell. The Riv is a Clem H I bought new in 2019. All the parts are stock except the handlebars. I swapped out the Bosco's for Velo Orange Milan bars. The Bosco bars made the bike feel too small for me (I'm 5'5" and it's the 45 size), and the Milan bars give me a semi-upright position that makes it feel just right. This is my "do everything bike". Shopping, touring, gravel riding, commuting, it's the bike I prefer for most things. I have covered up the "JR", in "Clem Smith JR" with a Clementine sticker. This bike is most certainly not a Junior, she is a classy lady!

Early last year, I moved to Colorado. I had no idea what a goat head was before moving here. Now unfortunately, I am well acquainted. I swapped out the tires on all my bikes to Schwalbe Marathons to battle the buggers. I'm still getting some flats though.  Is going tubeless worth the mess and expense? I can't use these Marathons, they are the standard wire bead version. And has anybody tried using the stock Clem wheels set up tubelessly? I would already need new tires, and a better pump. So I think new wheels are out of my budget.

Frustrated with flats,

Christine

[dougP]

Christine:

The Western US is goathead country.  Many of us have discussed various solutions here but they seem to be a part of life.  You mention still getting some flats, which suggests maybe you dont get as many as before?  While I've never tried the tubeless solution, those that have speak highly of it.  I've seen a post ride photo of a tire with a large amount of green dots where goatheads have penetrated & the sealant has done its job.  It seems to be best solution but was you note would likely require new rims & tires.  The Marathon is hands down the best tire for flat resistance but they can still puncture.  People have talked about putting sealant into the tube.  I've never tried it but hopefully someone with experience will chime in. 

Best of luck,

DougP

[Patrick Moore]

I've dealt with goathead flats for decades, and modern sealants are the best solution by far. I've used sealant in tubes (Orange Seal, regular formula works in tubes while the "Endurance" formula does not), and as long as the pressure is at least 40 psi it should fix the problem. It certainly works well at 50 or 60 psi. 

But for pressures lower than about 40 psi I find sealant does not work well in tubes; I guess there's not enough pressue to get the sealant into the hole in the tube. But sealants work fine in tubeless tires even at 15 or 12 psi, IME.

Tubeless tire setups require a tire with special beads for tight fit, plus a good buildup of of Stan's No Tubes rim tape on the rim bed. This can be done even with rims not designed for tubeless tires, as long as the rim bed is built up sufficiently with the tape so that the tire beads can fit firmly against the insides of the rim; too little tape and it is only air pressure holding the beads in place, which can lead to problems great and small. 

Since beads seem to stretch, and since you'll have to top up the sealant every 3 months or so, you'll have to be ready to add another layer of tape to regain the tight fit; then get the tight beads back in place against the rim walls. I just bought a cheap air compressor to do so

Easier all around if you switch to tubeless compatible rims as well as tubeless tires; but finding tubeless rims for rim brakes in the 26" size may be hard. Perhaps others can speak up.

Upshot: try 2 fl oz of Orange Seal regular formula in your tubes. If that doesn't work, get your rims set up for tubeless tires, and buy some tubeless-ready tires and be prepared to adjust the setup after 3 months or so with another layer of rim tape. I  use the Rene Herse Naches Pass, 26" X 1.8". Very light and very nice rolling, but expensive.

Finally, while sealant properly used will prevent thorn flats, it may well not seal bigger holes, so you'll need backup: spare tube or tubes if you are using tubes; I put sealant in my spare tubes when I use them; or, if your tires are tubeless, a plug kit, or else a tube to install for emergencies only. 

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Patrick Moore]

One more remark: I hate heavy thorn proof tires -- they're not really "proof," only resistant, and pre-modern-sealant, I simply fixed a lot of flats; I used up most of 200 Rema patches every year; it was just the price to ride decent tires.

But I did find one tire that rolled acceptably and was almost proof against goatheads even without any sealant: the Schwalbe Big Apple. They used to make this in a 26" size, but whether they still do, or whether it's still the same nice-rolling tire it was then, I don't know; this was 10 years ago or more. I'd say that on dirt, the Big Apple is almost proof against thorns -- I'd come off the dirt with literally scores embedded in each tire; brush them off, ride on, no leak a day later. On pavement, only a few got through in miles of riding compared to the other, lighter tires I used.

[Nick Payne]

If your existing wheels are not tubeless-compatible, Muc-Off sell sealant intended for use in inner tubes rather than tubeless. According to this review (https://road.cc/content/review/muc-inner-tube-sealant-277333), it works as advertised, and should seal punctures caused by goat heads. If you're using presta valves (which it looks like from your photo), you'll need tubes with a removable valve core, to allow you to get the sealant into the tube.

Nick

[Patrick Moore]

I'm glad to know about Muc-Off for tubed tires run at lower pressures. I may try that one day to avoid the admittedly much reduced hassles of tubeless tires on non-tubeless rims.

For the record: with tubes at 50 psi, Orange Seal regular formula works a metaphorical, not statistical 98% compared to the same stuff or its Endurance cousin in tubeless tires at an actual 100%, so far. Note again: Endurance didn't work for me in tubes at 50-60 psi, tho' it's my choice for low pressure tubeless. If you run much less than 50 psi in your tubes, then Muc-Off may be the better choice than Orange Seal.

Second, another make of sealant -- Specialized Airlock -- for tubes did not work for me in tubes at 35 to 40 psi, which is why I switched to tubeless for the Naches Pass tires even tho' my rims are not tubeless designed. But Specialized does offer it in a 5 gal family size. (I bought the pints.)

Muc-off has good reviews. But we'll see how an imminent (tomorrow!) Orange Seal replacement for the Naches Pass tires (tubeless on non-tubeless rims) goes. If all this requires is one more wrap of Stan's tape and then we're set for life of the tire, then I'll stick with tubeless. The shop people say that this sort of hack works very well once things settle into place.

Perhaps one day someone will offer road-width, silver, 32-hole tubeless rim brake rims in the 559 mm bead size.

On Mon, Apr 12, 2021 at 4:29 PM Nick Payne <njh...@gmail.com> wrote:

If your existing wheels are not tubeless-compatible, Muc-Off sell sealant intended for use in inner tubes rather than tubeless. According to this review (https://road.cc/content/review/muc-inner-tube-sealant-277333), it works as advertised, and should seal punctures caused by goat heads. If you're using presta valves (which it looks like from your photo), you'll need tubes with a removable valve core, to allow you to get the sealant into the tube.

Nick

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[Christine Justice]

Wow, thanks for all the information everyone! My flats have definitely been reduced with the Marathons. Just not as much as I'd hoped. And since they are SO heavy, even more so than the stock Kenda tires, I'm leaning towards trying some supple tubeless tires on my current wheels. I've never really experienced a supple tire, so I don't know what I'm missing out on. This is still a fairly expensive endeavor, even without new wheels. So I might try this Muc-Off sealant in my tubes first. I only run my tires at 30psi when I'm not carrying a heavy load, hopefully it will work that low. But those lush tires are really calling to me. 😆

Christine

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Hi Christine! 

I'm so glad to see you here. #RivSisters have got to stick together, you know? I just love your grilver bike and especially your Clementine sticker - that's a classy lady bike for sure. It sounds like you have a lot of adventures by bike; I hope to hear them here on the List. Welcome!

I live in Vegas and we have goatheads. I have a 52 cm Clementine (the L version) too. I ride pavement so I didn't have too many flats, but in 2020 I got new wheels on my Clementine so I could: 1. get tubeless and minimize my risk of flats and 2. lighten the bike up by cutting weight from the wheels/tires. I have been really, really happy with tubeless; I've seen little pinpricks in my tires (probably from goatheads) and the sealant does its job and I don't get flats. I will tell you if you do go tubeless and if it does require new wheels that Analog Cycles (a Rivendell dealer in Vermont) is an expert in tubeless wheelsets. They did my wheels and shipped them to me and now I have 3 sets of Analog-built wheels for the bikes in my family.

Hoping you get a great solution,

Leah

[Roberta]

Welcome, Christine. 

I’m I the”I hate flats” club. 

About April-May 2020, three of us RivSisters decided to go tubeless with supple tires.  Bikes were two Joe Appaloosas, a Clem L, and an A Homer Hilsen.  a Platy was added around November by Leah. We love the ride quality so much —better than stock heavy tires we all had. I don't think, though, that any of us three have the flat tire issue s that you might have with goat heads - Patrick is your guy there. I've ridden about l000 miles + Leah about 4000 - no flats.

I did a write up at the time and there was heated debate as to why our overwhelming enthusiasm and new found love—was it tubeless or was it supple tires?.  It was a bit of $$ but I think well worth the investment   My new Platy is ordered this way . In the future I may or may not go tubeless, but I will stick with supple tires.the difference in ride quality is huge. 

Here is my write up. https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/pWpMrkiVUlk/m/eVByOom6CQAJ. 

[Ray Varella]

Following Patrick Moore’s lead, I put orange seal in my tubes and eliminated goat head punctures. 

It wasn’t enough to stop a large wood screw but it worked great for thorns. 

Ray

[Patrick Moore]

Leah: Are your Clem's wheels 26"? If so, do you know what rims Analog used? I'm curious about rim-brake-compatible, 26"/559 bead diam tubeless-specific rims.

Ray: Yes, I learned to carry a plug kit. There are all sorts of such kits, but I have 2: cheapos for typical nail holes, and a kind that sort of looks like miniature feather duster, for even bigger holes. But for thorns, no problems at all for OS; am just now taking my Naches Passes apart for sealant replenishment (still between 1 and 2 fl oz of the stuff in the tire after 4-5 months, but colder and damper weather) and found 2 thorns in the tread; they may have been there for weeks. Yes, must apply 1 more layer of Stan's tape before re-assembly.

Aside: on another iBob thread, someone described finding still-liquid sealant in his tires (spilled it over his pants) after a year, but this in Ohio where, he said, a dry day is 70% humidity. For us, 5% is dry. Things would be so much easier if someone invented a sealant as effective as Orange Seal that did not dry out in a few months. 

[Patrick Moore]

Learning new things comes harder at just-66 (largely because you just don't have the patience for piddly new details that you had when younger), but I endured and things worked out well, thank God.

All this relates to Christine's question, at least remotely, because it describes replenishing sealant on makeshift tubeless setups (tubeless tire, non-tubeless rim). 

First, I removed the tires and found one bone dry, the other with about 1 fl oz of OS remaining. Cleaned the dried crud from the first, the wet crud from the second. Wiped down existing Stan's tape with alcohol. Added a second layer on rear wheel, installed valve and tire, nope, still too loose. Disassembled again, added another layer, reassembled; success -- but ....

I had first to unpack and assemble the new compressor and aftermarket hose, and spent an hour trying to find some sort of hose setup that would work with my valve stems. Plumber's tape is very finicky stuff. Finally bodged something using an old pump head.

Then added 2 fl oz OS Endurance, reinstalled core, pumped, success after a wee bit of leakage around the seams.

Did same for front, but knocked over the 32 fl oz sealant jar spilling 1/3 pint; cussed, cleaned. Added 1 layer of tape, installed valve and tire, pumped; discovered again that should have added 2 layers of tape. But tape disappeared,so said the h with it and got tire to seat anyway, added 2 fl oz of OSE, reinstalled core, pumped to 40 psi. Now, 3 hours later, both tires still firm.

As with installing metal fenders, the second time will be much easier and quicker. Saved the $63 and change the LBS would have charged, so with 2 bikes having this makeshift tubeless setup, the $85 cost of compressor, hose, and shipping will be repaid very quickly. Must find that roll of Stan's No Tubes tape, though.

Meanwhile, took a ride on the 1999 Joe Starck gofast fixie with tubes and OS in Elk Pass tires, and once again, if I had to keep just one bike, it would be this one.

[Joe Bernard]

52cm Clems use 650B, but Analog will have something for 26" wheel bikes that need tubeless-compatible rims. 

The answer to the question "can stock Clem wheels be tubeless" is: maybe if you have a compressor and are really good at this stuff. My recommendation is get them good wheels and tires and be happy! 

[Patrick Moore]

Must check with Analog about 26" tubeless, rim-brake rims.

I'd also recommend getting the full monty. I didn't, because I wanted to use particular rims, which make the taping and so forth worth while, and now I should be well set. But I'll still check what Analog has.

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[Christine Justice]

Thank you Leah! RivSisters, I love this! Your blue Clem is beautiful. One day I'd like to custom paint mine, to something beautiful like that. Although the silver is very easy to match with all my pink kit. 😹 I'll for sure post about any new adventures I get to take. I'm car-free, so I do everything on this bike. But I haven't got to do anything adventurous since the end of 2019. Hopefully soon though. I have to check with Analog Cycles, I hadn't heard of them, so thanks for sharing.

Roberta, thank you for sharing your experience. That was a very detailed write-up! Between that, and what you've said today, I'm really wanting to see what I'm missing. And loosing a good chunk of weight from the Clem would be really nice too!

And Patrick, reading what you've just gone through makes me not want to try DIY tubeless! If I get a new set of wheels from Analog, I can make the stock set my winter wheels. My spiked winter tires can't be run tubeless either.

[Patrick Moore]

Having done it once, it won't be hard in the future. But were it not for goatheads, I'd strictly use tubes on road; sealant for road tires seems to me to be more complicated than the problem, apart from goatheads. I might continue to use tubeless off road simply because tubes for 60 or 70 or 80 mm tires are so heavy.

Let us know your solution. And congratulations on the Clem.

[Jay]

Velocity cliffhanger is the only rim brake 26 tubeless ready that I know of! 

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[Fullylugged]

The Velocity A 23 is also tubeless compatible and comes in 26"

[Patrick Moore]

I figured that any tubeless 26" rim would be for fat tires. 30 mm is way overkill for 42 mm, let alone 28 mm, which is what I use on my road bikes. Still, for a Clementine, it's probably the very best choice if you want to give up tubes.

On Wed, Apr 14, 2021 at 2:09 PM Jay <jmanw...@gmail.com> wrote:

Velocity cliffhanger is the only rim brake 26 tubeless ready that I know of! 

 

[ascpgh]

Chrristine, I made the jump with my 650B bike, built around 42mm RH BabyShoe Pass standard casing tires on Pacenti Brevet rims. My mechanic said that this size is where the clear decision for tubeless is, based on ride quality, flatproofness and weight. She said there isn't much of a question although some circumstances are described where particular riders may continue to run tubed tires at this size. Mostly because they did before tubeless and are obstinate. Even without threats like goatheads or wider, lower pressure tires like Patrick's, my tubeless setup is lighter and better performing than the 700C x 32mm RH Stampede Pass EL tires with tubes that I had been riding on my Rivendell Rambouillet. 

I have had no punctures over the past year on my tubeless tires and that has included many miles on unpaved paths, trails and winter degraded streets with their usual glass and wire strand debris. I was happy to find that in use the 650B x 42mm tires plus sealant were not heavy or sluggish at all, not even for an argument's sake. They contributed to an energetic feeling the of the whole bike. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Patrick Moore]

This to clarify my opinion on tubes versus no tubes, from someone who is, oh so very aware of the limitations of tubes (again, pre-sealant, and refusing to use heavy tires, used up the greater part of 2 X 100-boxes of Remas each year).

FWIW, I used (125 gram) tubes in the EL Naches Pass 559 X 42s, each with a half-cup of Airlock sealant, and I was expecting the tires to feel draggy. Not at all; could not tell any difference by seat of pants when I had the NPs converted to tubeless with 2 fl oz of OS. That's with the NP ELs. OTOH, when I briefly* rode 559 X 32 mm Kojaks tubeless, I did feel -- note the word -- an improvement in ease of pedaling (lower rolling resistance) and comfort. So the difference may come down to the type of tire.

And second, the Elk Pass tires with sealant in tubes roll at least as well as the NPs do without tubes (and with; as above).

From my own personal experience, and from what I've read onlist and elsewhere, and goatheads apart: for lower pressures and fatter tires, there's no reason not to use a tubeless system and some reasons to do so: lower weight, no pinch flatting if you are prone to that. But for narrow (32 mm and skinnier) tires of the best quality, like the RH ELs, I can't see a reason to use a tubeless system if there are no goatheads and you don't pinch flat.

To repeat: my own experience such as it is is that for very supple tires at least up to 42 mm wide there is no difference in ride quality between tubes and no tubes. This certainly seems to change for less supple tires.

Jan claims that there is no benefit for tubeless for narrower, higher pressure tires, and my experience agrees with his assertion.

Goatheads of course change everything. And none of this involves the question of rim choice; there are not many, perhaps not any, road-type tubeless rims in the 559 mm diameter.

The value of tubes of course is that, when you get that puncture that sealant will not seal, you have a relatively easy and clean and quick remedy, and I have fixed enough sealant fails, and far more tube fails, roadside, to know the advantage. So absent goatheads, and for very light road tires, and given the availability of 60-70 gram tubes, I believe that tubes are still a very good and even best choice.

Patrick "none of this is scientific by any means" Moore

* Neither the Kojaks or the rims were tubeless designed, and you could not get a firm bead grip on the rim, leaving only air pressure to hold the beads in place. I rode the setup for ~200 miles and then chickened out.

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[adh]

Velo Orange's Voyager rims are tubeless compatible and come in 32/36 hole 26 inch! https://velo-orange.com/collections/rims/products/voyager-rim?variant=14408204353585

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 3:09:05 PM UTC-5 jmanw...@gmail.com wrote:

[Kevin]

Alex Adventurer 2 comes in a tubeless, rim brake 26. A bit narrower and certainly not as nice as a Cliffhanger but wallet friendly and pretty durable in my experience with the 700c version.

On Wednesday, April 14, 2021 at 3:09:05 PM UTC-5 jmanw...@gmail.com wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

Good to know about the Alex; will archive this. Rather wider and heavier than I like, and I think I'll prefer to futz with tubeless-i-fying a non-tubeless rim; so far, so good!

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