Help me lighten up Sam

[Bob Warner]

Would be grateful for reasonable/cost conscious suggestions for how to shed some weight from my Sam; which is currently is weighing in at 31.3# with the following configuration:

• Velocity Dyad 36 / Ultegra 6500 rear with Ultegra 6700 12-30 cassette; Velocity Dyad 32 with SP Dynamo & BM IQ-X
• Nitto 135mm Faceplater stem + Nitto Billie Bars; Newbaums & Oury grips
• Sugino XD-2 crank
• Paul Racer brakes & Paul Levers
• Brooks B17 Special
• Nitto S-83 seatpost
• IRD QB-95 BB
• Shimano 105 5701 long cage RD
• Shimano 6500 FD
• Tubus rear rack, Nitto M18 front rack
• Blackburn SS cages
• Berthoud SS fenders & RH Barlow Pass tires

I went on my first overnight bike tour and boy was my rig heavy. It was a big adjustment for me pushing all that weight for 80 miles!!  My camping gear is pretty lightweight stuff for backpacking, so curious if there are any reasonable priced alternatives to lighten up the bike.  Many thanks in advance!!  ~Bob

 

[Mathias Steiner]

Hi Bob,

I have felt your pain -- quite literally.

My steel tourer is "heavy" as a frame + fork, which weigh 3700 g, including the headset. So there's MAYBE a couple pounds that could be saved by going to an Al touring frame. That's not an option, obviously, but it makes a point.

By the time I was riding it as a commuter and on a multi-day tour, it weighed 36 lbs. Dyno hub, Velocity Dyad rims, racks & fenders -- sound familiar?

Your bike weight is fine. The Hillborne is very similar to my BLT in all respects except prettiness and lugs. My extra weight came in part from Marathon tires, and I need those in this college town. Every heavy part served a purpose, so I left it.

You've already chosen the lightest reasonable tires for your purposes and the 38 mm width.
You could lose the fenders, or save "many grams" by going to SKS plastic. Pass.
I would add a kickstand, but that's me ;)

Here's what I would REALLY do:
For a few long unencumbered rides -- randonneuring, for instance -- lose the fenders and the rear rack.
You can save more weight by ditching the saddle for something light weight, but c'mon.

Find a set of racy rim brake wheels -- $100 goes  a long way in the used market -- and who still wants rim brakes?
Add a 5 mm spacer to the non-drive side and re-dish the rear wheel. Shoe the wheels with GP5000s in 700x32. Those tires are FAST and not flat prone under normal circumstances. 

Ride. Measure your speed with both rigs. You will have saved a couple, three pounds, but that won't make you faster. It may change the way the bike feels -- lighter FEELS better. You'll probably gain a little speed this way, and it'll feel like a different bike.

Then come to your senses and restore the tourer to its touring role.

Better yet, do what I do, get a 1980s Cannondale STx00 and ride it on group rides and unloaded jaunts. A great ride, light weight, feels fast, and the perfect complement to a tourer. Plus they have proper steel forks, not the unicrown of the later ones. We're such slaves to style.

cheers -mathias

[Patrick Moore]

Your Sam weighs just about the same as my Matthews #1 built to fit and handle (as much as possible) like a road bike while accepting 622X60s and fenders and racks and lighting system. Though it weighs much more than my road bikes it doesn't feel nearly as heavy or "plodding" as the weight difference might make me think.

Besides, if you are adding a 20 or 30 lb camping load to the bike, taking off 5 lb won't make much difference, I'd guess.

The riding position is much like that of my road bikes and I think this helps. Also, the tires are "fast feeling;" this defiintely helps. Lastly, the frame: it's built of OS but thinwall tubing and I expect that this makes it feel "light."

I had a first gen Sam. It felt rather wooden, which is 1 reason I sold it. Chauncey Matthews also built me a road frame o mimic and replace a 2003 Riv Road custom, but of much lighter and normal --vs OS -- tubing; the Riv's f+f+hs weighed 7 lb.  The #2 Matthews certainly feels less wooden -- less of a chore to pedal, especially when I'm tired -- than the Riv custom, same wheels, tires, drivetrain, gearing. I expect that it is probably the more flexible frame rather than the lower weight that is the principal difference.

I expect that some people find some Riv frames stiff and unaccommodating; but then again, very many others exclaim about the "light" feeling even of Clems.

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Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[Patrick Moore]

Addendum to frames and feelings: my much proclaimed fave bike of all time: 1999 Riv road custom, different builder and different tubes. It was the model for the 2003 which was an almost identical copy (58 c-c st instead of 57 c-c). The 1999 has felt "fast" on every ride since I got it 25 years ago, even with different tires. The 2003 was a near clone but felt wooden. The 2020 Matthews #2 replacement feels like the 1999.

Second gen Ram - blue. Not bad, but it never sparkled, even with first gen Paris Roubaix "open tubulars." Both handling and pedaling felt -- well, I felt I could do better, so that too was sold on.

So, different frames and strokes for different folks. Suggestion: Try other bikes for rides similar to those you do on your Sam and see what difference they make.

[Steve]

Bob, sounds like a great build for touring. I'm not trying to be flippant here, but you might consider adding lower gearing to your bike if you're using it for loaded travel. Sure, you'l go slower, but you'll enjoy it more. 

If you add  up the weight of your bike + your gear + your body weight and then calculate the 2 or 3 pounds you might loose as a percentage you might just decide that decreasing the utility of the bike is not worth the trade-off.  

Steve

[DavidP]

I've got to agree with the others. A typical light-ish weight steel touring build is maybe ~25lbs. I'm sure you could drop some weight but I don't see 6lbs being worth the trading off in comfort or functionality. 

That said some places to look:

- saddle: drop a pound by switching the brooks for a plastic saddle

- fenders: another pound

- wheels: lighter wheel build (still need to be strong for loaded touring), tubeless?, lose the dynamo and headlight; maybe save 2lbs?

- the last 2 pounds might take some work (stem, bars, crank, etc.)

I think I'd keep the six pounds...

-Dave

[Michael Morrissey]

I feel your pain my friend. My Riv is also a little portly and I am constantly scheming to lighten it up. 

Here are my suggestions:

Ditch the front derailleur and the biggest chainring, and the front shifter, go "one by".

Get an electric pump and pump up your tires to a PSI that feels just right for you and your gear. Ride around wiht a notepad for a few weeks and try different pressures. I have this electric pump that is accurate to a half a PSI. https://www.amazon.com/EPAuto-Portable-Compressor-Digital-Inflator/dp/B01L9WSTEG

Switch to Schwalbe Aerothan tubes (I just got one and I'm trying it out now. Feels lighter a little bit.)

Get SKS plastic fenders or ditch fenders entirely for the tour (bring rain pants instead). 

Get a titanium railed Brooks? (expensive but kewl)

Ditch the front rack and run two panniers plus a duffle bag or saddle bag on top. 

Ditch the dynamo and ride during the day? 

Switch to nylon pedals? 

I hope these help! Post a ride report from your camping trip please. 

Michael

[Pam Bikes]

My Betty is heavier than all your bikes.  Just like Leah, I have a donkey.  Don't try to ride as many miles fully loaded unless you're used to it.  A veteran bike tourist told me to shoot for 30-50 miles/day to make it more of a vacation.  I totally agree.  I like to linger at a nice cafe occasionally or check out a monument, etc.  All the weight you have is worth it and it's rolling weight.  This picture is from my trip from Brandon, VT to Montreal to Labelle, QC about 300 miles.  My boyfriend carried the tent!    

[William Lindsay]

Lightening a bike is about a dollar per gram. $454 per pound. Spend what you can afford. 

BL in EC. 

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[Conway Bennett]

Ditch the racks, fenders, and Brooks saddle, and switch to 1x gearing.  I have a jack the bike rack with basket and bag, a jumbo jammer handle handlebar bag, and a bxb frame bag--none of which has to be on the bike, but I could schlep a lot in different configurations.  The only bag that lives on a bike is my saddle bag.  Also, a WTB pure saddle is cheap, comfy, and light.

[Armand Kizirian]

You're looking to lighten up in the wrong place. For a fully racked/fendered/brooksed/dynamo'd bike, you're doing great. How much did your gear weigh?

Lighten up your camping load. It's rather absurd (most of the time) how much people do not consider what things weigh when they pack for a tour. Sure, sometimes it's an overnighter without a demanding route, but for anything that will prove to push your comfort zone in fitness, take out a nice postal scale and start weighing things. You've got backpacking experience, pretend like you're carrying your kit on your back, not your bike, and you'll drop some weight. ;)

I just got back from an international bikepacking tour. Fully self-supported, including prepared for rainy conditions, all my bags/touring kit weighed under 15lbs dry (no food/water). Granted, the touring bag setup I used (rackless) is far from a typical Riv touring setup.

[brendonoid]

Here to add my +1 to say that you have a light bike for what it is doing.

To be more helpful, those cro-mo faceplater stems are beautiful and strong but heavy compared to a tallux.

The Brooks is heavy. 520g to a plastic saddles ~300g

The S-83 is heavier than an S-65

Changing those few things could net you 300-500 grams.

Fenders are 500+grams.

So I've found over 2 pounds you could lose with the accompanying comfort and versatility. Not really worth it IMHO.

[brendonoid]

On Thursday 25 July 2024 at 11:17:20 UTC+8 captaincon...@gmail.com wrote:

Ditch the racks, fenders, and Brooks saddle, and switch to 1x gearing.  I have a jack the bike rack with basket and bag, a jumbo jammer handle handlebar bag, and a bxb frame bag--none of which has to be on the bike, but I could schlep a lot in different configurations.  The only bag that lives on a bike is my saddle bag.  Also, a WTB pure saddle is cheap, comfy, and light.

A Jack rack is over 700grams and Wald is over 500g. So, heavier than his rear tubus, in fact, almost heavier than his Tubas and M18 combined. fwiw.

As you say it doesn't have to be on the bike all the time, but it is not a light option at all.

[ascpgh]

You've validated many of your specs, most not being of the path of least resistance monetarily. You had to pause and consider each of those. 

On one of my favorite 80 mile rides knowing the route lets me carry less water and make it a point to stop and refill where I know I can. An extra 28 ounces is almost 2 pounds. The stops also break up the terminal grind that sets in on long pulls between breaks. Those grinds get a steeper decline as the day goes on. Blame it on the effort required to move you, your bike and its load across the terrain or yourself for being less genetically like one of the noteworthy pros. I ride for fun and exhilaration of being outside, it keeps me fit. No one goes to the gym and brags about how little they lift in the rep sets.  

I'm no randonneur and never raced so I can go about my riding without worrying that my bike is too heavy. I stayed with the lead bunch on a group ride Tuesday, my Rambouillet was no excuse for how I felt afterward. I was the performance limitation despite the commentary by those who now do not even have memory of metal framed bikes and think of them as antiquities. Two Spaniards here for school were particularly surprised by my bike. The one from Girona needed more gears (or legs) on his Colnago for the hot and humid climbing, the one from Barcelona ate his superbike's rear derailleur trying to shift on the steepest climb bending it and his dropout, tangling in his (eight?) DS spokes. 

Carefully selected tools may best do a particular job but are also the least used because their specificity has little tolerance for widened use, often with costly consequences. I went light on my rear wheel hub for my custom 650B the other year with a Suzue Classica high flange (2 pawl) cassette hub. The aluminum cassette body has become chewed by the cogs by my riding, loads and hills, now creaking annoyingly when pedal load is reduced, every stroke. It's the only adventitious sound on my bike and impetus for getting a Silver cassette hub with six pawls and a steel body built on a matching rim by Rich at RWB which just arrived and is lovely. 

I have a 3/4" rabbet plane (blade goes edge to edge across the width of its open sided block). I got it to level the door stop on several very large doors I had made pre-hung (with three sides of jamb and installed stop). The installed stop didn't have consistent contact with the closed door due to the nature of wood, it got some waviness when drying after milling that prevents evenly seating against them when closed. The plane let me address the issue of the high spots effectively and directly as a cost, labor and material conservative option. An unbelievably effective tool that I have used very little since then, its cost more than justified,  but there it sits. I don't have the room for bikes of that sort of specificity. 

Ride. What you've got.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[Will Boericke]

I think your best opportunity there are wheels and saddle.  Is it worth asking if the dynamo and lights get used enough to be worth the weight penalty? If you want lighter touring, maybe frame bags might save some weight over racks and panniers. I don't know that you're going to shave a bunch of weight off.  

Will

[Edwin W]

Great suggestions from the group... I especially like "don't worry about it."

One other great place to lose weight: your body. How much do you weigh? How satisfied are you with your weight, fitness, and percent body fat? I remember Grant once wrote something like: sit in a chair with your shirt off, lean forward 45 degrees and look in the mirror. If that is an image you cannot improve, look for weight savings on the bike.

But of course most of us have quite an opportunity to save some weight through diet (mostly) and exercise (a bit).

Good luck and nice looking (and well outfitted) bike,

Edwin

[Piaw Na]

On Thursday, July 25, 2024 at 5:48:37 AM UTC-7 Will Boericke wrote:

I think your best opportunity there are wheels and saddle.  Is it worth asking if the dynamo and lights get used enough to be worth the weight penalty? If you want lighter touring, maybe frame bags might save some weight over racks and panniers. I don't know that you're going to shave a bunch of weight off.  

It's definitely worth considering changing your style of touring if expedition-style touring is not for you. I've flipped between expedition-style touring and credit-card touring over the years, and I will say that the credit card style lets you be much more aggressive with your routes and choice of bike than carrying camping gear, stove, and sleeping bag.  (https://blog.piaw.net/2008/02/cycle-touring-and-spriit-of-adventure.html)

This summer (photos: https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/F4vBBQH_RoiPwZuocdYhiw.-TzKRm6CSeV0PmNYEtKNg5), my 9-year-old son and I did a 823 mile tour with 73000+' of climbing in the Swiss, Italian, and Austrian alps. No way could we have done this much while carrying camping gear. (Note: our tandem was 45 pounds empty!) One day in Bormio we asked the local bike shop (Stelvio experience) if the dirt route from Lago Cancano to Livigno was doable on road bikes. The unequivocal answer from the shop was "No! Maybe with mountain bikes." We chose to do it anyway and the route required 45 minutes of intermittently pushing the bike up a dirt road and a 2km descent losing 600m of elevation. At the Livigno lake a mountain biker looked at us and said: "Wow! You did that with rim brakes on a tandem?!!"

I've ridden expedition-style down the Pacific Coast (a much milder choice of route) and enjoyed it thoroughly, but I will be the first to tell you that a credit-card tour with a road style bike in the alps beats that in intensity, beauty, and fun. Both the book Jobst Ride Bike (https://blog.piaw.net/2023/11/review-jobst-brandt-ride-bike.html) and Gary Erickson's "Raising the Bar" (https://blog.piaw.net/2008/06/raising-bar-revisited.html) explains the appeal and method their approach brings. (Though now that I've read Jobst Brandt Ride Bike I realize that Erickson was actually a Jobst acolyte and was supposed to tour with him one year but Jobst got injured and couldn't take him)

Piaw

[Bob Warner]

Thanks to all for the great comments and suggestions - all very insightful & helpful.  

Ideally I don't really want to alter the aesthetic of the Sam that much, so will probably work on the other half of the touring weight equation: camping gear and my own weight!

I'm planning to ride the Erie Canal Bike Trail end of summer for about a 5 day tour.  I'll have to study up on suggestions for lightening up the camping gear.

[aeroperf]

Having toured extensively both with expedition loads and credit-card tour loads, I’ll add one thing that Steve touched on up above.

It may add weight, but go for a touring gear set up.  3x9.
Something like a 46-36-26 for credit card tours and 44-32-22 for expedition tours, with an 11-34 cassette.
You want a low-low gear of about 20 gear inches.
I used to blame the weight, or my legs, but correct gearing made a big difference.

The Erie Canal Bike Trail is a nice ride.  Enjoy!

[Bernard Duhon]

WE did Erie Canal a few years ago  its flat flat flat.

I did not find the western sections very enjoyable.

Scenery was monotonous.

No shade.

On the plus side were the towns along the way.

A lot of places were closed cause we went “ off season”

Enjoy

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[Bernard Duhon]

I agree this summer  I ran a low-low compact double 42-26

& 11-34 cassette  650b wheels 165 crankarm that’s 19 gear inches.

Even overloaded I walked no hills .

 

From: 'aeroperf' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2024 4:31 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [RBW] Re: Help me lighten up Sam

 

Having toured extensively both with expedition loads and credit-card tour loads, I’ll add one thing that Steve touched on up above.

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