Betty VS Clem

[Cinza]

I have and LOVE my Betty..

But I am considering a Clem.

I commute around town.

What I love about Betty (besides being a beauty) is the ride. 

I wonder if anyone has both and can discuss the difference in ride and fit between the two rides.

The reason I am thinking of Clem is the easier step over/through. Other than this I have no reason to change frames.

Thanks for any thoughts on the difference in terms of riding experience (vs frame details).

Cinza

[Joe Bernard]

Leah Belle Dingaling (I might have the name wrong 😉) will have a direct comparison, but I'll offer Cheviot v. Clem L..Chev is basically a Betty with longer stays.

Clem is a slightly stouter/heavier bike with v-brakes, I think of it as the touring/trail version compared to Chev/Betty road bikes. If memory serves - I don't have either anymore - Clem has an extra mid-stay eyelet, too.

They're both great, Clem L is definitely lower for mounting.

[C.Wilson]

Thank you.

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[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Well, do you have to choose one or the other?

I’ve ridden a Betty as my main (ok, only) bike since 2012. I love it; it’s nearly perfect and feels like an extension of my own body. I have a deep affection for the Betty Foy, but when my mother in law got a Clementine I fell in love with her bike, too. My son rides a Clem H, my husband has a Clem H (that he neglects in favor of his ugly ebike) and my brother in law has a Clementine. So, we have a real love affair going on here with the Clems. I’ve ridden both the Clementine and Clem H enough to offer my perspective.

That said, I would have a difficult time choosing one bike over the other. If Grant incorporates the strong suits of both in his rumored and highly anticipated Anniversary Mixte, I could maybe commit to just one bike. Until then, I’d want both Betty and Clementine. Of these two models, here are my impressions.

1. I prefer the step-through of the Clementine.
2. I feel like I go faster on the Clementine. Maybe it’s fatter tires. Maybe it’s momentum on a thicker-tubed frame? I don’t know, but I feel faster.
3. I like the long chainstays on the Clementine.
4. I love the fully-lugged look on the Betty.
5. Betty is a bit more aggressive in position; I like that for hauling loads, which I do more often than not.
6. Betty has lighter, prettier tubing, she’s more aesthetically pleasing. Like a butterfly!
7. I prefer the fat tires on the Clementine. Those tires just eat up the road bumps and feel so stable.

I had the opportunity to swap bikes with my MIL once, and I chose not to do it. There’s still something about that Betty that I cannot part with. In making my decision, I had ridden both bikes all over the little lake town in Minnesota where my MIL resides. I had just returned from joyriding all over town with the Clementine, and I was jazzed. I couldn’t believe how comfortable and fun the bike was. I decided to take my old bike out once more, just to make sure I could tell the difference. But when I threw a leg over the Betty and rode only a few blocks, I knew I was home. That bike is my legs. I love it. I can’t give it up.

So, there you have it. The answer is BOTH.

[Cinza]

Yes, I would only have one bike. 

I did not know the fat tires make for a feeling of speed, I was concerned the tires would make the ride feel heavier.

You've made me curious about the  Anniversary Mixte", I didn't know there was another bike to look forward to.

I'll look to find out more on the Mixte.. 

Step through is the only reason I'd change my bike.  

Thank you very much.

Anyone care to post on the Mixtie... I will be happy to read.

Cinza

[Joe Bernard]

Btw, "Leah Belle Dingaling" is supposed to be a term of endearment, we're friends. In retrospect I'm not sure dingaling was the charming word I was looking for. Sorry, Leah!

[Leah Peterson]

If you’re gonna use my name, at least get it right!
😂
Leah Belle Shama Lama Ding Dong

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 9, 2019, at 2:17 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Btw, "Leah Belle Dingaling" is supposed to be a term of endearment, we're friends. In retrospect I'm not sure dingaling was the charming word I was looking for. Sorry, Leah!
>

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[Mark in Beacon]

A mixte anniversary design (and I've only heard it mentioned here, not in any official Rivendell communications-- I guess I missed it) will not address the issue you are having with your Betty Foy in terms of its step throughness. I on my Clementine for over a year, and have ridden a friend's Cheviot. The Clem L is a great bike. Even with the so-so stock tires it rode well, as aptly described by Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!. You really can't go wrong if you are intending to use it as a town go getter with some zip. It will also do so much more. Lugs are nice, but the lines of the Clem, with the swooping top tube, and the lovely paint and clean welds and nice fork crown, are beautiful, too.

[C.Wilson]

Thank you, this is an encouraging post… and yes, I agree, the mixte is not the answer for my concern.

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[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Don’t give up on the Anniversary Mixte yet. I can’t read diagrams for love nor money, but a couple of folks on the List here looked at those drawings and said they saw the twin top tubes as being very low and swoopy. Not unlike the Clementine. Where are those folks? Chime in here!

[ted]

Something about bird in hand vs birds in bush.
A nth year anniversary bike is as yet a bit mythical, and though I hope it comes to pass It might not.
A Clem L can be pre ordered today and possessed before the summer is out, and it’s properties are known (as opposed to being speculative at best).

[Joe Bernard]

This is correct, the mixte or step-through or whatever-the-heck it's called on the Blahg was a very low, swoopy design. Much more Clemy than Chevy.

[Leah Peterson]

And Grant had said it might have the name Rivendell and am I dreaming it or did he also say he was thinking about fancy lugs for it?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jun 9, 2019, at 9:54 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> This is correct, the mixte or step-through or whatever-the-heck it's called on the Blahg was a very low, swoopy design. Much more Clemy than Chevy.
>

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[Joe Bernard]

He definitely said something about flattish tubes which would be hard to put decals on. I'm not sure about fancy lugs (maybe he said it to you?) but I imagine an anniversary Riv would have them.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Here. He discusses his dreams for the bike near the end of this post...

https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/2019-3

[Mark in Beacon]

Yes, I do remember this now, thank you. Nothing about extra swoopy. And "special" lugs, not necessarily fancy--that's because of the ovalized flattish tubing. A total of 100, so, unlike Clem and Chev, likely to be a full-priced model, if not more. My sense, with the Gus Boots and its variations coming down the pike, and the expense of fabrication a bike requiring new lugs and tubes to make 100 would require, is the number seven scenario is most likely:

7. Alternatively, we'd do something less radical, not call it an anniversary model, and have it be an ongoing model.

But you can always hope! I'm just hoping Gus and his offshoots are here by the fall.

[Garth]

Here is the photo from the blahg of the so-called anniversary frame . The elegant swoop is unique to any other Riv. design, as you'd expect a Anniv. Special frame to be.  Neither like or unlike a Low Clem or Mixte !  .... https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/articles/F25for_blahg_grande.png     (The google formatting for posting images here is awful !) 

[C.Wilson]

Thank you.
Was this the last heard of the bike, or has anything else been said?

> On Jun 9, 2019, at 11:00 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Here. He discusses his dreams for the bike near the end of this post...
>
> https://www.rivbike.com/blogs/peeking-through-the-knothole/2019-3
>

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[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

I am curious how anyone can look at the twin top tubes and see “swoopy.” I want them to be, because I agree with Cinza - I want my mixte to be a step through. I have believed they will be swoopy, trusting the interpretation of others, but the twin tubes appear straight to my untrained eye. Garth, are you saying you see twin top tubes being swoopy?

Yes, Mark, special lugs doesn’t mean fancy, but I dare to hope because it’s an anniversary model! Curious what you mean about hoping Grant and Co will be here in the fall. I know business has been hard of late, but do you really think they could close their doors by fall?

If that’s so, Cinza, get in line for a Clementine. You too, Mark, I know you miss your tuxedo Clementine. I can barely let myself imagine life with no RBW; let’s hope for the best.

[Cinza]

Closing their doors?  Would be tragic, every time my BF is complimented for being beautiful, i reply it rides as beautiful than it looks

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 11:13:06 AM UTC-7, Cinza wrote:

[Cinza]

If you were blind to the Betty beauty, you would enjoy riding the Clementine more?

On Sunday, June 9, 2019 at 11:13:06 AM UTC-7, Cinza wrote:

[Leah Peterson]

Cinza, who are you asking?

Sent from my iPad

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[Leah Peterson]

OH MY GOSH, Mark, I read Gus as “Grant” and thought you were saying something totally different. I read this when my eyes first cracked open and I read it WRONG. 

I am so sorry. 

Disregard!

Leah

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[Garth]

   I'm referring to the side profile Leah, the downward swoop of the top tubes from the top of the head tube to mid seatstay ! The twin parallel downward swooping tubes continue unbroken the whole way from head tube to seatstay. I call it elegant as the line is a smooth arc rather than separate tubes from HT to ST and ST to SS adjoined @ST with a lug.  If I knew of a way to color the side perspective I'd color the swoop red and I could continue it virtually in the form of a perfect circle !  Imagine it's a thin crescent of the moon !

[REC (Roberta)]

This is the same pic I just posted and delete, but the name is correct now.   

[Leah Peterson]

But friends, I thought the swooped top tube shown is the Gus bike and the twin tubes floating above are for the Anniversary Mixte. I thought it was both bikes pictured in a single diagram . If not, then the AM definitely has swoopy twin top tubes...

Sent from my iPhone

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<swoopy unnamed bike.PNG>

[Johnny Alien]

The top tube on the Gus is higher up that that. It's like a swoopy H style not a true step through style like in the diagram.  That diagram is showing the top mixte view and the side mixte view.

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 2:38:58 PM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

But friends, I thought the swooped top tube shown is the Gus bike and the twin tubes floating above are for the Anniversary Mixte. I thought it was both bikes pictured in a single diagram . If not, then the AM definitely has swoopy twin top tubes...

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 10, 2019, at 11:27 AM, REC (Roberta) <rcha...@gmail.com> wrote:

This is the same pic I just posted and delete, but the name is correct now.   

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 12:56:42 PM UTC-4, Garth wrote:

   I'm referring to the side profile Leah, the downward swoop of the top tubes from the top of the head tube to mid seatstay ! The twin parallel downward swooping tubes continue unbroken the whole way from head tube to seatstay. I call it elegant as the line is a smooth arc rather than separate tubes from HT to ST and ST to SS adjoined @ST with a lug.  If I knew of a way to color the side perspective I'd color the swoop red and I could continue it virtually in the form of a perfect circle !  Imagine it's a thin crescent of the moon !

On Monday, June 10, 2019 at 9:46:35 AM UTC-4, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

I am curious how anyone can look at the twin top tubes and see “swoopy.” I want them to be, because I agree with Cinza - I want my mixte to be a step through. I have believed they will be swoopy, trusting the interpretation of others, but the twin tubes appear straight to my untrained eye. Garth, are you saying you see twin top tubes being swoopy?

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<swoopy unnamed bike.PNG>

[Garth]

  Here's the Boots Leah .... in the small and XL. I saved the photos from the demo sales pages.

[Garth]

 While the Boots has a swoop it wouldn't form a perfect circle like the arc of the Anniv. image. The curved TT of the Low Clem is more functional/utilitarian looking to me, not really elegant at all. Not that it's super important, it's just I couldn't help but notice the beautiful perfect arc just glancing at it. I find a certain elegance in it for sure, intended or not.

[Joe Bernard]

I love the arc and I really hope the frame happens. I also hope we get more info eventually, we've been trying to decipher one diagram offered with no explanation of what it is for a couple months now. I need information!

[Eric Daume]

Looking at the diagram of the anniversary model, the top tubes hit the seat tube 270mm (=10.6”) above the center of the bottom bracket. You can compare this dimension to your Clem L to get an idea of the relative lowness of the top tube. My guess is the Clem is lower. 

Eric

On Monday, June 10, 2019, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

Don’t give up on the Anniversary Mixte yet. I can’t read diagrams for love nor money, but a couple of folks on the List here looked at those drawings and said they saw the twin top tubes as being very low and swoopy. Not unlike the Clementine. Where are those folks? Chime in here!

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[Mark in Beacon]

The anniversary model is what I would call a twixte, on account of it being betwixt and between a Clementine and a Cheviot.

Awesome if they can pull it off. With two versions now of the gus boots planned for the fall, and a shipment of clem ls in September and tandems coming shortlythis might be a 26th anniversary edition.