Clem L set up

[Keith Swanson]

I finally made my first grocery ride to Trader Joe's and notice a lot of flop under a load.  I'm wondering if my set up is off.  I had this rack on a Kogswell and never had any issues, but the Kogswell was designed for a front load. I've attached a picture for inspection. Any advice would be appreciated.  

[Joe Bernard]

Yes you will have that on a Clem, it's not designed for high and heavy front loads like a low-trail frame. I tried your setup on a Clem L a couple years ago and couldn't live with it.

My recommendation is to use a rear rack with a big saddlebag or panniers for most of your shopping load, and keep the front under 5 pounds with tools, light jacket, and maybe a couple of the light items from your shopping run.

Check the "short rides are fun" thread for a pic of my Clem L loaded from shopping. Most of it is in the rear bags, plus a couple things in the small front panniers mounted low. You can carry things on the front of these bikes - a lot of folks use baskets - but the weight limit gets exceeded pretty quick if it's up high, then the fork gets floppy.

[Deacon Patrick]

+1 to the wisdom of Joe. I've hauled 90+ pounds on the back of my Hunqapillar (with it's longer wheel base, the Clem is even more adept at this), which necessitated a slower ride but no other issues save the expected handling issues of hauling that much weight. I now use a Burly cargo trailer for loads over 60 lbs. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Patrick Moore]

Rear loads rule. Amen. Yes, don't expect Rivendells to do well with heavy front loads.

My principal grocery bike is my 2003 Curt Goodrich road custom, and this does very well with up to 35-40 lb on a stiff rear rack, tho' not as well as the champ described below; there is shake and shimmy with rear loads over ~30 lb.

I had the frame modified by local Chauncy Matthews with said custom, stiff rear rack and low riders; the bike is fine with front, lowrider loads in Ortlieb Sports Packers at weights up to 20 lb, but any more and you have steering awkwardnesses, and of course -- not true for rear -- you have to balance the load right/left.

The 2003 Curt handles rear loads much like my erstwhile Ram -- the version that takes 32s with fenders. But the best-ever rear-load bike was a very light-tubed, 1973 Motobecane Grande Record (tout 531) with a 11 oz Tubus Fly rack. This frameset was noticeably lighter than my 2 custom Riv Road framesets. I carried 45 lb in the rear with no shake or shimmy; very nice and -- very odd, that such a light frame would do so well with heavy rear loads.

Fun fact. Back when I had my original edition Sam Hill modified by Dave Porter with front lowrider mounts;  just for fun I put ~20 lb in each of 2 front lowrider panniers. I could hardly steer!

OTOH, the 1 or 2 times I used one of those VO bar-clamp front bag arms -- the thick wire thing that hooks onto the bar and lets you hold a front bag way forward of the bar -- on my 1999 JoeX2, it carried 8-10 lb surprisingly well.

'Nother aside: One reason I sold the 1958 Herse -- one of the best fitting bikes I've owned, and a bike that, despite the heavy tubing that made its 2 previous owners sell it forward, urged me to ride 1 tooth smaller in back -- was that it didn't carry either front or rear >20 lb loads well. Odd.

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Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Mark Roland]

I never had an issue with front-loading my Clem L. I ran a basket on a Surly 8-pack. On my new Clem L, I just bought a porteur rack to go along with the Clem rack in back, hung with back o bike bags. Might be about spreading the load, but I never had much of an issue with something in the basket and nothing in the panniers. Give it a bit of time to get used to how it handles. Or try distributing  the load a bit.

[masmojo]

I have a VO Polyvalent and a Rawland Drakkar, also had a Kogswell PR. All low trail and all carried front loads very well. My Clementine doesn't really do very well with a front load, but you get used to it. You just have to be aware that it's going to be "floppy" (especially in low speed situations).

[Joe Bernard]

For me "get used to it" is a place I won't go. If the thing doesn't work right, I change it 'til it does. Rivs are not designed for heavy loads up high over the fork.

[Drw]

I think it really depends on how high and how heavy. To me your load looks high and very far out front. I find with a front load that getting it closer or locking it with the stem/handlebar can mitigate some flop. I can put 10lbs, maybe a little more on the top of a front rack without feeling anything. Ive also toured on an Atlantis with front panniers and a basket, and yeah first 3minutes it felt weird, but you get the rhythm of it pretty quick. (I’ve since gone for a saddlebag, frame bag, and a front basket. So Maybe that negates my comment.)

All that said, I’d doubt that the Clem, or most other bikes, with a massive high front load will handle optimally.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Hmmm...I have limited experience with bike models, as I only have a Betty Foy and a Clem L, but I can’t say I’ve known these bikes to not accept heavy front loads. I will also admit I never knew any better and because I was pulling Baby Bear on his trail-a- bike, I only had the option to carry front loads on my Betty. I got the heavy duty Nitto so I could carry 30 pounds. I carried all kinds of things in my basket (my dog was 19 of those pounds)  and don’t remember feeling that the bike did anything but a good job. I have not put my new Clem to the test yet, as I have been loathe to strap a basket over my pretty Nitto Basket Rack. Friends - are you saying the Clem L carries front loads worse than other Rivendells, or do all Rivendells struggle with front loads?

It’s 1 am here, I hope this made sense. To bed!

On Sunday, December 29, 2019 at 7:14:07 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:

Rear loads rule. Amen. Yes, don't expect Rivendells to do well with heavy front loads.

My principal grocery bike is my 2003 Curt Goodrich road custom, and this does very well with up to 35-40 lb on a stiff rear rack, tho' not as well as the champ described below; there is shake and shimmy with rear loads over ~30 lb.

I had the frame modified by local Chauncy Matthews with said custom, stiff rear rack and low riders; the bike is fine with front, lowrider loads in Ortlieb Sports Packers at weights up to 20 lb, but any more and you have steering awkwardnesses, and of course -- not true for rear -- you have to balance the load right/left.

The 2003 Curt handles rear loads much like my erstwhile Ram -- the version that takes 32s with fenders. But the best-ever rear-load bike was a very light-tubed, 1973 Motobecane Grande Record (tout 531) with a 11 oz Tubus Fly rack. This frameset was noticeably lighter than my 2 custom Riv Road framesets. I carried 45 lb in the rear with no shake or shimmy; very nice and -- very odd, that such a light frame would do so well with heavy rear loads.

Fun fact. Back when I had my original edition Sam Hill modified by Dave Porter with front lowrider mounts;  just for fun I put ~20 lb in each of 2 front lowrider panniers. I could hardly steer!

OTOH, the 1 or 2 times I used one of those VO bar-cla front bag arms -- the thick wire thing that hooks onto the bar and lets you hold a front bag way forward of the bar -- on my 1999 JoeX2, it carried 8-10 lb surprisingly well.

'Nother aside: One reason I sold the 1958 Herse -- one of the best fitting bikes I've owned, and a bike that, despite the heavy tubing that made its 2 previous owners sell it forward, urged me to ride 1 tooth smaller in back -- was that it didn't carry either front or rear >20 lb loads well. Odd.

On Sun, Dec 29, 2019 at 12:14 PM Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:

Yes you will have that on a Clem, it's not designed for high and heavy front loads like a low-trail frame. I tried your setup on a Clem L a couple years ago and couldn't live with it.

My recommendation is to use a rear rack with a big saddlebag or panniers for most of your shopping load, and keep the front under 5 pounds with tools, light jacket, and maybe a couple of the light items from your shopping run.

Check the "short rides are fun" thread for a pic of my Clem L loaded from shopping. Most of it is in the rear bags, plus a couple things in the small front panniers mounted low. You can carry things on the front of these bikes - a lot of folks use baskets - but the weight limit gets exceeded pretty quick if it's up high, then the fork gets floppy.

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[Joe Bernard]

I'm saying no Riv has the low-trail geometry that works best for the kind of load the OP was carrying, but my only experience is with a 52cm Clem L with a front rack and basket. I did some shopping runs with about 20-25 lbs. of stuff in a Shopsack plus similar in a rear bag and found it very wobbly and disconcerting. Was it doable? Sure. Would I do it again on purpose? Nope! Too scary for me, I don't trust a front end doing the things that bike was doing.

Just my experience and opinions.

[Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY]

I take pretty huge loads from trader Joe's using front lowriders on my step through Rosco Bubble. Step through frames like my Rosco and your Clem L, having pretty beefy forks, can handle weight on those forks. Just like our bodies, they like that weight carried low and centered, not high and tippy. So yeah, lowriders up front with the chips and cereal up high wherever you can get it.
As for rear loads, on my Clem H, a torsionally sturdy diamond frame (not step through), rear loads are lovely. If you must rear load your step through bike, don't try standing up to crank or put any substantial weight on the front of the bike to avoid feeling your bike turn into a noodle.
Killer bike BTW
-Kai

[Garth]

Bikes are "designed" to be ridden. Just ride means just that.  How that plays out is PFM .... pure f'n magic !   F is for fun ; )   For every "this frame was designed for X", there are countless examples like Leah who just ride their bike as they intuitively know how to do without needing to be "informed" of nebulous "intentions" aka "suppositions" .   P F M   is Life Itself  .

[Joe Bernard]

Well no, just because Leah is a strong rider who balances front loads well doesn't mean the bike was designed for that. Grant has very clearly stated his frames have a 'carry the heavy stuff in the rear' bias because they ride better unloaded with that geometry.

Alternatively this works well on low-trail frames and you can ride those bikes all day with a big front load if that's your thing. It's not mine, I tried it with a Crust and hated the handling with no load. I can't get my head around a bike that only works with stuff in a front bag.

[Leah Peterson]

I think there’s a lot of truth to what Garth is saying. In theory maybe, a Rivendell doesn’t handle front loads so well. In reality, it does just fine.  I’m absolutely sure no one is going to say this (see below for photo of my late great sidekick) setup is a good idea but it worked like an absolute charm for 7 years. A wobbly load (my dog preferred to sit upright) that shifts because it’s *alive* and I never, not one time tipped or felt out of control. 

I say keep trying with that Clem L and its front load and I bet you’ll get used to it.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 30, 2019, at 9:48 AM, Garth <gart...@gmail.com> wrote:



Bikes are "designed" to be ridden. Just ride means just that.  How that plays out is PFM .... pure f'n magic !   F is for fun ; )   For every "this frame was designed for X", there are countless examples like Leah who just ride their bike as they intuitively know how to do without needing to be "informed" of nebulous "intentions" aka "suppositions" .   P F M   is Life Itself  .

On Monday, December 30, 2019 at 2:01:04 AM UTC-5, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:

Hmmm...I have limited experience with bike models, as I only have a Betty Foy and a Clem L, but I can’t say I’ve known these bikes to not accept heavy front loads. I will also admit I never knew any better and because I was pulling Baby Bear on his trail-a- bike, I only had the option to carry front loads on my Betty. I got the heavy duty Nitto so I could carry 30 pounds. I carried all kinds of things in my basket (my dog was 19 of those pounds)  and don’t remember feeling that the bike did anything but a good job. I have not put my new Clem to the test yet, as I have been loathe to strap a basket over my pretty Nitto Basket Rack. Friends - are you saying the Clem L carries front loads worse than other Rivendells, or do all Rivendells struggle with front loads?

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[Joe Bernard]

I disagree! (shakes fist at clouds)

But the pic with the puppers is adorable 🙂

[Leah Peterson]

That dog was the *most* adorable - on that we’ll agree. Meanwhile, as soon as I get on a plane and set foot on NV soil, I’m grabbing my Clem, strapping on the Wald to the basket rack and loading it down with something obscene. I will report back on whether or not there is flex or whatnot.

Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 30, 2019, at 10:47 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I disagree! (shakes fist at clouds)

>
> But the pic with the puppers is adorable 🙂
>

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[masmojo]

I dig tha boots!!

[masmojo]

Oh! Also, I was gonna say I currently have a large Wald basket on my Clementine and I manage, but it's a bit unwieldy. On the other hand I usually have a medium basket mounted & in that configuration I typically have no issues.

[Ed Carolipio]

Drw mentioned earlier that Keith's rack sits too far forward and a bit high for the Clem. The former puts most of the ahead of the front of the axle rather than behind it, while the latter increases the moment of inertia in the side-to-side direction. Leah's rack, on the other hand, sits several inches closer to the fork and a couple of inches lower: note the distance between the rear of the rack and the v-brake and the gap between the rack and tire. That setup is more optimized for riding with a high front load, if that's your preference when hauling stuff with the bike.

--Ed C.

[Leah Peterson]

This makes sense, Ed. I wonder if the new basket rack has addressed this issue? I’m sure it was considered when it was designed. I’m not home to take a real measurement, but here is a photo of my Clem L with the rack so you can see where it sits. I’m no expert so I don’t know, but it does look to me like the rack sits low and close. But maybe not as close as my Nitto Big Front on the Betty... 

Anyway, Keith, you may have more luck with this rack. I hope yours can work though.

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 30, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Ed Carolipio <ed.car...@gmail.com> wrote:



Drw mentioned earlier that Keith's rack sits too far forward and a bit high for the Clem. The former puts most of the ahead of the front of the axle rather than behind it, while the latter increases the moment of inertia in the side-to-side direction. Leah's rack, on the other hand, sits several inches closer to the fork and a couple of inches lower: note the distance between the rear of the rack and the v-brake and the gap between the rack and tire. That setup is more optimized for riding with a high front load, if that's your preference when hauling stuff with the bike.

--Ed C.

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[Keith Swanson]

Thanks for all the responses.  I think I'm going to get a Mark's rack to go with the medium basket I got for Christmas.  This bike is just so much fun to ride I can't wait to get everything dialed in.  

[Leah Peterson]

This will only likely work for those of you getting email responses to this post. I made a video with my front-loaded Clem today. If you’re hoping for highly technical, you’ll be disappointed. 

[Joe Bernard]

The video proves that I'm wrong or Leah can ride anything. Your choice!

[masmojo]

My Clementine yesterday morning on the way to work.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/kvgTv4BrmYPZcxFu8

Unfortunately, what you don't see is me unloading it before trying to lock it up, because it would for sure fall over.

[Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!]

Haha, Joe, I don’t know about *that.* More likely is that I just don’t know what the heck I’m doing and prefer it that way. 🤣 But Mas, you look like you’re handling that front load really well, so there’s hope for the OP! (And sorry that your bike tipped over; I shudder.)

[Ed Fausto]

Hi Leah,

Your short movie made me smile today.

I need to ride my bike!!!

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:48 AM Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

This will only likely work for those of you getting email responses to this post. I made a video with my front-loaded Clem today. If you’re hoping for highly technical, you’ll be disappointed. 

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On Dec 30, 2019, at 12:40 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:

This makes sense, Ed. I wonder if the new basket rack has addressed this issue? I’m sure it was considered when it was designed. I’m not home to take a real measurement, but here is a photo of my Clem L with the rack so you can see where it sits. I’m no expert so I don’t know, but it does look to me like the rack sits low and close. But maybe not as close as my Nitto Big Front on the Betty... 

Anyway, Keith, you may have more luck with this rack. I hope yours can work though.

<image0.jpeg>

<image2.jpeg>

Sent from my iPad

On Dec 30, 2019, at 2:08 PM, Ed Carolipio <ed.car...@gmail.com> wrote:



Drw mentioned earlier that Keith's rack sits too far forward and a bit high for the Clem. The former puts most of the ahead of the front of the axle rather than behind it, while the latter increases the moment of inertia in the side-to-side direction. Leah's rack, on the other hand, sits several inches closer to the fork and a couple of inches lower: note the distance between the rear of the rack and the v-brake and the gap between the rack and tire. That setup is more optimized for riding with a high front load, if that's your preference when hauling stuff with the bike.

--Ed C.

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[Garth]

   Leah's video wonderfully shows that you don't need anyone or anything telling you, instructing you or in any way influencing you on how to ride a bike.  You just get up and go, no one can tell you how to do that and all attempts to do so are futile as no help is required or even possible ! Imagine someone trying to tell you how to breathe, how to beat your heart, how to even sit or sleep or do anything ! Try telling a dog how to be a dog, a bird how to fly, the Sun how to shine ..... try telling Existence how to Exist !!!  .... whaaaat ?  ..... yes  ..... oh the silliness !  

[Joe Bernard]

I think you can helpfully advise on technique and equipment; cycling isn't a thing you are born doing. I do agree there's a limit to this approach, and I'm especially sensitive to it on a largely male-dominated forum where it can be too easy to slip into sexist notions of "telling the little lady how it's done."

I've given Leah plenty of advice - usually because she asked - as a person who's been riding and wrenching for decades and can possibly help her skip a few mistakes I've made. But no, I can't tell her how to ride and would not even try to speak that way.

[Leah Peterson]

Holy heck, Joe, it’s true about helping me out of mechanical messes. That has also been a group effort here on this List. You guys are all wonderful and I ought to give you half my kingdom. I’m pretty sure there was a collective sigh of relief when I finally put the last piece of my Clem L in place.

I’m back to Just Riding now, and aiming to get back the feeling like my new bike is an extension of me. I haven’t taken to this bike as quickly as the Clementine or the Betty; I think it’s a little long. Hoping I get to where I won’t notice, soon. I had to order a new long wheelbase bar for my bike rack, since the Clem is over 48 inches 🙄. It arrives soon.

Keith - how is your Clem coming along? Did you switch racks? Did you sort out the issue? Or are you just living with a floppy front load?


Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 4, 2020, at 2:46 AM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I think you can helpfully advise on technique and equipment; cycling isn't a thing you are born doing. I do agree there's a limit to this approach, and I'm especially sensitive to it on a largely male-dominated forum where it can be too easy to slip into sexist notions of "telling the little lady how it's done."

>
> I've given Leah plenty of advice - usually because she asked - as a person who's been riding and wrenching for decades and can possibly help her skip a few mistakes I've made. But no, I can't tell her how to ride and would not even try to speak that way.
>

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[Keith Swanson]

Hi Leah,

My Clem is coming along. I’m finally putting my fenders on today and taking off the front rack. I’ll put a rear rack on for now. Like you I still haven’t melded completely with the Clem. I love it, but it’s such a different creature that it takes some time to get used to. The length is the most obvious thing-at times I wish I would have gotten the 45, which is what I would get in an H. I remind myself that it’s really just a matter of patience and tinkering.

One of the things I like about this forum is the helpfulness of the members. I think it’s the willingness to try new things and accept the sometimes odd setups of others. Perhaps it’s a Riv owner characteristic. For quite a while bike shops have reminded me of stereo shops in the 70s, complete with an attitude. And before I get howls of protest, I realize the number I’ve visited is a small sample. I am sure there are plenty of great ones out there and I just haven’t found them. Anyway, it has motivated me to fumble my way through doing my own wrenching.

Since you have a Clem and a Cheviot, how would you compare the two? I’ve only ridden a Cheviot for a couple of blocks, but still think of getting one.

Keith

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[Leah Peterson]

Keith, I FEEL EXACTLY AS YOU DO. This Clem is a different creature - you’re exactly right - and it takes getting used to. I’m still tinkering with mine and I’ve had it for a couple of months. Do you know what I did tonight? Committed the cardinal sin of saddle adjustment. I moved the saddle forward. In my defense, it just felt like it should be done. My stem can’t be shorter, and I just felt too stretched out. Not uncomfortably so. I didn’t even to it in increments - I pushed that sucker at least an inch forward. My knees are still way in front of my behind. I’ll ride tomorrow and see how that goes. I’ve often wondered if I should have gotten a size down as well; I hadn’t known Rivendell lengthened the new Clems when I got the 52.

I have the Betty Foy, the Clementine and this new Clem L. The Betty Foy, as you likely know, is the predecessor of the Cheviot. It feels lighter than the Clem and Clementine, and more maneuverable. I find the Clems to be more comfortable and plush. I do plan to get the new version of the Cheviot that is being released late spring (and sell the Betty and Clementine). If I get one before you do, I’ll report back so we’ll have a true comparison.

I think we’ll get used to our Clems, I really do; and if not, we’ll start a support group or something. 😂



Sent from my iPad

> On Jan 4, 2020, at 6:36 PM, 'Keith Swanson' via RBW Owners Bunch <rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>

[Joe Bernard]

I'm starting to think making the 52cm Clem bigger than it used to be was a bad idea...

[DHans]

If anyone wants to sell their 52 frame to purchase a 45 let me know. 🙂
Doug

[Leah Peterson]

I have imagined starting a new thread about this, but I fear it will come off as ugly or mean and I don’t want that.

What I mean to find out is whether the expanded geometry of the newest generation of Rivendells really is superior compared to the earlier bikes. I’m most curious about LWB bikes that were made even longer in the new iterations of Riv models. The Clems, most of all. Can anyone say the new super long Clem rides superiority to the old Clem?

If you read the Reddit AMA with Grant, LWB comes up frequently, and he offers his thoughts about stability and comfort. I agree with Grant there - I think my Clementine rode nicer than my Betty Foy. Further confirming this, I had both bikes in MN this summer and I let my sister borrow one; we both always wanted the Clementine. We had to take turns like we were 5 again. She now has her chameleon green Clem L, and she says the same things I do - it’s a different bike. Prior to her Clem, she stole her husband’s 59 Clem L in grilver and really grew to like it, though it should have been too big for her (she’s 5’8”). She hasn’t taken to her new Clem, but since it didn’t arrive until Sept, she doesn’t have enough miles to really know her bike yet. But still, it is suspicious that she feels like I do about her bike.

Can I say the Clem L with new geometry rides better than the Clementine? No. I would have liked to keep the dimensions of the Clementine with the upgrades to appearance of the Clem L (thinner tubing, cream accents, heart seat lug, and gorgeous paint). And now that I had to spend money for my bike rack to take it, and have hit it on my garage wall trying to back that long bike up, I miss the shorter Clementine.

I still really like the Clems and wouldn’t hesitate to recommend them, but I’m not sure the 52 is still the right size for me. I’m 5’6” and 83(?) PBH.

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> On Jan 4, 2020, at 10:50 PM, Joe Bernard <joer...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I'm starting to think making the 52cm Clem bigger than it used to be was a bad idea...

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[Keith Swanson]

I don’t think you’re imagining things. What sold me on the 52 was riding an orange 52 at Rivelo. I rode the 50 Cheviot at the same time and it was just not as plush, but fit ok.

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> On Jan 5, 2020, at 2:28 PM, Leah Peterson <jonasa...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I have imagined starting a new thread about this, but I fear it will come off as ugly or mean and I don’t want that.

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