Tires and seat posts more important for comfort than frame material?

[tc]

Well-presented study of what affects comfort:
https://youtu.be/Lb4ktAbmr_4

Tom

[Andrew Turner]

I like this guy's videos as they're very thorough but not daunting. It's not exactly anything super controversial though. Basically all frames have  close to 0 vertical compliance by themselves before factoring in seatposts, tires, etc. Totally checks out, frames use the same tech as bridges for Pete's sake. Now he's including a lot of footage of carbon yet the title is only steel vs. aluminum...perhaps that's due to his touring background though. 

Vertical compliance is only one part of the equation though. These people in the comments saying they've gone from steel to alloy to carbon and back to steel, defending it as the most comfortable are missing the point of the video. There are other factors that play into why you might prefer one over the other. Hell, if I had the money, the eye for carbon and murdered-out componentry, and rode bikes for no purpose other than to ride a bike, I probably would prefer the ride quality of an Open U.P.(P.E.R.) with the fattest Rene Herse EL tires, over some vintage Trek 720 on 700 x 23s. 

But I don't have that kind of money for bikes, I like the way lugged steel looks more, and I can 650b that trek, add racks and bags to transport me and things, crank that quill stem up to the sky, and ride equally as comfortable as the Open at a fraction of the cost and at a fraction of the speed ;) 

[Steve Palincsar]

On 8/21/20 5:19 PM, Andrew Turner wrote:
> I like this guy's videos as they're very thorough but not daunting.
> It's not exactly anything super controversial though. Basically all
> frames have  close to 0 vertical compliance by themselves before
> factoring in seatposts, tires, etc. Totally checks out, frames use the
> same tech as bridges for Pete's sake. Now he's including a lot of
> footage of carbon yet the title is only steel vs. aluminum...perhaps
> that's due to his touring background though.
>
> Vertical compliance is only one part of the equation though. These
> people in the comments saying they've gone from steel to alloy to
> carbon and back to steel, defending it as the most comfortable are
> missing the point of the video. There are other factors that play into
> why you might prefer one over the other. Hell, if I had the money, the
> eye for carbon and murdered-out componentry, and rode bikes for no
> purpose other than to ride a bike, I probably would prefer the ride
> quality of an Open U.P.(P.E.R.) with the fattest Rene Herse EL tires,
> over some vintage Trek 720 on 700 x 23s.

That vintage 720 probably came with 27 x 1 1/4" tires, the equivalent of
a 700x32. http://www.vintage-trek.com/images/trek/1983/83Trek14.jpg

>
> But I don't have that kind of money for bikes, I like the way lugged
> steel looks more, and I can 650b that trek, add racks and bags to
> transport me and things, crank that quill stem up to the sky, and ride
> equally as comfortable as the Open at a fraction of the cost and at a
> fraction of the speed ;)

That vintage 720 is no slouch.  It was respected then and it is still
respected.

--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

[Benz Ouyang, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Friday, August 21, 2020 at 2:19:25 PM UTC-7 Andrew Turner wrote:

…Hell, if I had the money, the eye for carbon and murdered-out componentry, and rode bikes for no purpose other than to ride a bike, I probably would prefer the ride quality of an Open U.P.(P.E.R.) with the fattest Rene Herse EL tires, over some vintage Trek 720 on 700 x 23s.

Rene Herse tires may be manufactured to the highest quality and standards, but Open frames are apparently not. Maybe the vintage Trek 720 is better after all. :)

[masmojo]

That guy in the video is a little annoying, but the information is spot on!  (One reason I don't really enjoy the handful of seat post Concept)  

Old aluminum Cannondale's, Kleins and other Aluminum bikes were VERY stiff and definitely would beat you up even with sloping top tubes and long seat posts. My Klein Pinnacle race bike was brutal; when I changed to the steel Fat City I was so much faster and less beat up at the end of the day! Modern aluminum tubes are better constructed and. the frames designed with the characteristics of the tubes in mind.

Titanium bikes DO ride like Butter!

[Ed Carolipio]

I don't disagree with what he says but he could have been done in a minute by stating the obvious: the up-and-down movement of your derriere is not driven by the frame material since it turns out double diamond frames are vertically stiff.

I'd recommend watching Jeff Jones demonstrate the purposely designed seatpost tube flex on his Spaceframe. https://youtu.be/rfGu3yGcnJQ?t=131 Hang out until 3:17 to watch him demo the truss fork's "lateral stiffness". I also like how the design of the Spaceframe and the GBW seem to rhyme as their shapes hint that their designers wanted the frames to flex in similar ways.

--Ed C.

[Ryan M.]

I had a Trek Emonda SL6 (full carbon bike with a bontrager saddle that looked like it would cut you in half and 25mm tires) for a few years and that bike was super comfortable and really fast feeling, especially going uphill. You wouldn't think that bike should have been as comfortable as it was, but it was. I did a lot of high mileage 100+ mile rides on that bike when I had it and rode it almost every day with a club.

Nowadays I split my time between my Appaloosa, my Frank Jones, and an aluminum full squish mtb and they are all pretty comfortable. I have found that for me, especially as I age, I want shorter crankset arms and a more relaxed upright position with bars that put my wrist at a comfortable angle. I am finding it increasingly uncomfortable to ride drop bars mostly because some "arthur-itis" in my hands and the angle drops put my hands don't allow me to have the grip strength to properly engage the brakes. I have not found that flex in the seat tube makes a difference. I mean, it may, but I'm not sure how much flex these bikes have in their seat tubes/seat post so I can't really say for sure.  I also think my days of doing really long rides are probably over.

Anyway, I've never really thought frame material makes a bike comfortable and comfort is more in the design of the individual bike and the fit regardless of material. 

[ascpgh]

If you narrow from a complicated system a single variable and measure it with a selection of test items, you'll get data. Yes, a rigid frame's seat post, saddle, wheel components and tires will contribute more to "comfort" if you say vertical compliance equals comfort. What about lateral compliance? Am I a loser or a non-cyclist because I value that? 

The premise that aluminum frames are generally maligned as "uncomfortable" may be true, but vertical compliance is but a single variable found in complete bikes. If everything is harmonious, many factors will contribute to that measures feature. 

When I see a bike frame in a jig I hope it's for alignment, repair or construction because if it's for testing to imply general conclusions about bikes  (which have wheels, tires, crank arms, stems, handlebars and seats in addition to seat posts), I cringe because of all the previous incarnate machines' testing which purportedly sort out the entire how and with what you build bikes question once and for all. 

The reason we all spend time riding bikes, optimizing them, talking about them and enjoying riding them as well as the experiences and discoveries of others like us is that they are such simple appearing yet complex things that easily elude jigged frame analysis. The variables of a bike and their hierarchy of importance depends on the individual rider and we all know there is a vast spectrum of those. That is the first generalization I take offensively whenever analysis occurs. The assumption that every rider needs "X" then leads to isolating what varies "X" and pacing examples on a scale from good to bad. 

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[George Millwood]

I bought an aluminium Cannondale Touring bike back in '98.  It was an ST1000 from memeory. I found it uncomfortable.  So I changed the seat, the stem (two or three times), the handlebars (three or four times)  , the seat post, the pedals, the tyres, added mudguards (fenders), mudflaps and finally, I swapped the frame out for an Atlantis.  Then, it was comfortable.  Now the steel may be the least consideration in the comfort factor and the design and sizing of the Atlantis may have been a bigger factor but it was a long road to comfort.  I'm with Andy, there are a lot more factors that make up comfort and comfort can only be measured by the rider.