Bike Fit - Back Pain - RivRiders Handlebar Survey

[Bruce Curry]

Tis the season to be putting on more miles and I am experiencing more
pronounced lower back pain. For some reason climbing makes it even
worse. I feel like my bars are too far forward for me but don't wan't
to launch on a stem buying spree without some scientific study and
addl input from group members. The facts:

64cm Ram with the bars about 3cm over saddle height, 60cm cockpit w/a
12cm stem and a VO wayback seatpost w/a brooks B17. I am tall with
long torso & short arms. When I look at my front hub thru my bars the
hub is about an inch ahead of the line made by the bars (but since the
bars are up so high this point is essentially moot). What I think is
probably the most telling issue is that my knees remain about 7" away
from my bars (measured horizontally from each other from a purely
eyeballed vertical plane separating my knee from the bars). The
method I used to take this measurement was to spin backwards holding
onto the wall looking straight down at a tape measure to judge the
imaginary horizontal distance from the farthest forward progress of
the knee.

Has anyone else faced this challenge? Solution? Does the "knee-bar
quotient" seem like a rational metric. Anyone else care to share
their number?

Bruce in Seattle

[Esteban]

Knee-bar quotient seems spurious to me.  Its hard for me to imagine just how long your cockpit is!  If those are noodles, I wonder if the long stem influences handling.

OK. This is an easy, if sacrilegious test.  Lower the bars so that they're even with the saddle.  Then ride, climb, and see how it feels.  Maybe even try them 1cm lower. This will, of course, push the bars out more.  But it might answer the question about height being an issue.  

By my estimation, when you're climbing, the bars are coming up toward you, and the combination of "up and out" may be putting no-good pressure on your back.  

Anyway, just try it.  

Esteban

San Diego, Calif.

[Zack]

Have you considered using albatross bars?

I am 6'3" with a really long torso, and was never comfortable on a bike until my 64 Sam with albas.  I have ridden the 64 with noodles too, but albas are really great.

Just a thought.

I have no idea about the knee/bar height thing.  

[Zack]

Forgot to add I also suffered from bad back and shoulder pain, since switching to albas my legs get tired first (which is the way it should be on a bike!)

On Monday, April 2, 2012 8:05:14 PM UTC-4, Bruce Curry wrote:

[William]

Esteban is secretly one of those "slam your stem" dudes. :)

[Michael Hechmer]

Bruce, you may be over thinking this problem, and over focused on bike fit.  What are you doing for your back post ride?  I find 3-4 sessions of yoga every week absolutely necessary while riding regularly.  Perhaps a consultation with a good chiropractor or physical therapist could help.

michael

On Monday, April 2, 2012 8:05:14 PM UTC-4, Bruce Curry wrote:

[Aaron Thomas]

Stem-slamming jokes aside, Esteban's test is worth trying. I used to ride with my bars at or above saddle height, but after some experimentation found that bars lower than saddle height provided a much more comfortable arrangement.

Note, however, that I coupled this shift in bar height with a zero setback seatpost in place of a standard setback post I had been using. If you lower your bars, you may also want to ditch your VO wayback post and replace it with either a normal setback post or zero setback.

On Monday, April 2, 2012 5:05:14 PM UTC-7, Bruce Curry wrote:

[Esteban]

Yea - Slam it, and get some tri bars while your at it!!  ;)

Yea, Aaron encouraged me.  Its not for all, but with that old-timey quill stem, its an easy test.  

For touring, I like the bars even, for harder efforts, I like them lower.  Higher led to shoulder pain.  But its different for everybody.

Of course, Albatross'ss'ss'ss are a cure. But high up up up without a sprung saddle, you might end up with pain elsewhere in the you-know-what.  And they isolate the quads more... unless you SLAM them!

[James Warren]

I too found some success with bars lower than saddle. For me it is for keeping proper upper back posture.

Also, definitely don't just look at bike fit. The advice about other solutions and maintenance (yoga, chiropractic, etc.) is good advice. In my experience, bike fit can help you see where your range of useable dimensions should be, and the stronger your body is, the wider that range will be. 

Good luck,

Jim

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James Warren

jimcw...@earthlink.net

- Remember, my friends, it is better to feel fast than to be fast.

[James Warren]

It is different for everybody, but I will echo that higher also causes me shoulder pain.

The lesson here is that you've got to find out what works for you, because there are plenty of cases where "higher is more comfortable" simply can't be assumed.

I will point out that the "low" position that I have settled upon is still considered higher than average in many circles. Here is a sample:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/46035786@N07/4551628878/in/photostream/

Also, I am 6'4". In general for comfort, barheight-relative-to-saddle tends to be lower for taller people than it is for shorter people. Again, this is a generalization. You must find out what works for you.

-Jim W.

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[Tim McNamara]

That wayback seatpost makes me wonder. If the saddle is too far back that might be the cause of your troubles. I think that before yoga or a chiropractor, you need a bike fitting by someone who really knows what they are doing.

In lieu of that, be incremental and scientific in adjusting your bike fit. I'd suggest moving the saddle forward in 5 mm increments (and maybe a bit higher to compensate if your knees are sensitive) and seeing if the back pain goes away (it could take 1-2 or more cm to stop overflexing your back).

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

There must be a trustworthy shop in Seattle that can at least look at your set-up without charging you hundreds for a bike fitting. We often see bikes come in for repair where the set-up just looks painful, where it was clear the owner was attempting a DIY procedure to make it more comfy. Not saying you did that, but some aspects of bike fitting are non-intuitive to most cyclists. The point is that an experienced eye may spot a few easy to remedy "usual suspects" with just a glance. Maybe post a few pics of your bike so the experts here can have a go at it?

The advice about yoga is good. We cyclists tend to get rather gelatinous above the waist unless we do other types of exercise.

[Bill M.]

Bruce,

Can you post a good profile picture of your bike as it sits, and maybe one of you on the bike?  

Bill

On Monday, April 2, 2012 5:05:14 PM UTC-7, Bruce Curry wrote:

[newenglandbike]

Bill-   could you be a little less overt in your shameless gambits for more bike porn?   have you no dignity man?   

Now, back to the topic at hand:   Bruce, please post a picture of your bike already.

-Matt

[Jim]

I've got chronic lower back issues, and would like to offer a plug for Pilates as a way to make the lower back a bit more robust.  The doctor that recommended it told me that when you start to get to the age where such problems occur, you need some activity that regularly lengthens and strengthens the back, for which Pilates is quite effective.  I've gone from an average of three flare-ups per year to one in the past two years.    FWIW i ride drops and have their tops at the height of the saddle.

Jim in Boulder

[Kelly]

Just my opinion and how I look at ...

If you feel to stretched out ... You probably are.

The more stretched out I am the better the bike usually feels for me on climbs out of the saddle. Yes there are limits to everything.

Was the bike ever comfortable? If so what?

After being off an aggressive fit for awhile I'll have lower back, wrist, and neck pain after hours on the bike. Usually takes me 1000 miles into the season to be comfy for the 5 or 6 hour non stop rides. However be aware it's comfortable to begin with.. The pain or discomfort is being out of shape.

I did have a mountain bike that gave me back pain once. I measured a vertical line from center of crank up and then measured to center of seat. I then compared that to my comfortable road bike and found it to be 1/2 inch longer on the mountain bike. So much for just slamming saddles all the way back. Slid the seat forward and all was good.

There was a difference in the pain/discomfort from not right, more miles, to not right, bad, do something besides ride as is. Be careful, trust yourself and your body over even the most expensive highly rated fit shop. Point being a good fit is still a starting point.

Good luck

Kelly

[Jeremy Till]

Ah, bike fit.  This is a topic close to my heart.  I've been struggling with bike fit for a number of years now, but have recently discovered somethings that have really improved my comfort. 

First off, in addition to reading Rivendell recommendations, I'd also start by reading Keith Bontrager's article "The Myth of KOPS," that is hosted on Sheldon's site: 

http://sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

In addition to critiquing the old "Knee Over Pedal Spindle" philosophy, he lays out his kind of general philosophy of bike fitting.  It doesn't exactly line up with the goals of, say, a Rivendell fit--Bontrager is concerned with sprinting power, for example--but his insights, esp. with regards to how saddle setback affects your center of gravity and weight distribution between your hands and seat, were particularly informative for me. 

Basically, in my mind, there are two key elements to fit, which often get conflated.  First is overall front-rear balance and weight distribution, which is mainly determined by saddle position.  Second, there is reach and stretching comfort, which is determined by the distance between saddle and bars.  This isn't to say that the two aren't related--the more stretched out you are, the farther forward you are pulling your CoG.  But I think sometimes we think that simply raising you bars and bringing them closer will take weight off your hands without ever thinking about where the saddle is; if you saddle is too far forward, you will be weighting your hands even with the bars above saddle height.  On the other hand, it is possible to have a very "stretched out" position and still ride with little weight on your hands, providing you have enough setback to counterbalance your forward reach, and have the flexibility to ride in such a position.

So, first, I would think about how you're balanced with on the bike WRT to saddle setback.  Are you compensating for poor balance by tensing your back muscles?  I've recently discovered that anatomically, i need much more setback than "normal" seat tube angles and seatposts can provide.  Then, once having set seat position correctly for balance, if you still feel stretched out, i would incrementally reduce reach (either by raising the bars or shortening the stem) reduce reach until you are comfortable. 

On Monday, April 2, 2012 5:05:14 PM UTC-7, Bruce Curry wrote:

[RonaTD]

On Apr 2, 11:50 pm, James Warren <jimcwar...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Here is a sample:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/photos/46035786@N07/4551628878/in/photostream/
>
> Also, I am 6'4".

Now THAT is a great looking bike! (biases fully admitted)

It also is, as noted, hardly pushing the envelope for getting the bars
down below the saddle.

The thing that I find missing from a lot of bike fit analysis and
discussion is the speed at which you ride. As was also noted in this
read, the faster you ride, the lower you will want your bars. This is
both for the obvious aero reason, but more importantly for the
balance. Keith B's article gets there.

I think of bike fit as a balancing of forces on the three points of
contact - feet, seat, and hands. The slower you ride, the less weight
you're supporting with your feet. That weight has to go somewhere. If
you don't change your CG, a lot of it will go to your hands, so you
change your CG by sitting more upright. Saddle shape and tilt are a
significant part of the equation. Back or shoulder or neck pain might
be caused by holding yourself in awkward position to avoid pain
somewhere else. Being conscious of where my weight is and where I am
not relaxed as I ride is the best way I have found to identify fit
problems.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA

[Bruce Curry]

OK RivBikers.. You had me at Bike Porn.

This is with the latest stem raise to 4cm above saddle height to
alleviate back pain. Will be adjusting per Dr. Esteban's advise later
today to see if my spine remains intact. I thank all those who
contributed advise. I do appreciate it.

Photos attached here:
https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=114171552924642549314&target=ALBUM&id=5727209143669659169&authkey=Gv1sRgCN6fvKHRzcX3lgE&feat=email

Note to anyone with either sensitivity or previously diagnosed
addiction to Dungeoness crab porn... do not go past the first picture
in this album. It's a slippery slope people. Recovery is long and
hard.

Bruce

[Bill M.]

At the risk of seeming over eager, the link doesn't work for me.  And if I need bike porn, there's a Flickr group of that name:

http://www.flickr.com/groups/87416120@N00/

OTOH, if you Google "bike porn", I'm NOT resposible for what you find!

Teasing us with Dungeness crab after the season has passed?  Now that's not fair!

Bill

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Is that your actual saddle height? If so, it looks like the bike is far too small for you, and I'm not seeing the 3-4 cm bar above the saddle height. It looks like the stem is maxed out and barely to saddle height?

[Bruce Curry]

I am a tease... ask anyone. I think I didn't doublecheck that the
album was public before sending the link.

As to crabs...they were kayak-caught last summer on Lopez. After
fresh crab cooked in seawater on the beach in the San Juans nothing
else tastes quite as good. Zone 7 has been good to us.

Bruce

On Apr 3, 5:58 pm, "Bill M." <bmenn...@comcast.net> wrote:
> At the risk of seeming over eager, the link doesn't work for me.  And if I
> need bike porn, there's a Flickr group of that name:
>
> http://www.flickr.com/groups/87416120@N00/
>
> OTOH, if you Google "bike porn", I'm NOT resposible for what you find!
>
> Teasing us with Dungeness crab after the season has passed?  Now that's not
> fair!
>
> Bill
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, April 3, 2012 11:09:38 AM UTC-7, Bruce Curry wrote:
>
> > OK RivBikers.. You had me at Bike Porn.
>
> > This is with the latest stem raise to 4cm above saddle height to
> > alleviate back pain.  Will be adjusting per Dr. Esteban's advise later
> > today to see if my spine remains intact.  I thank all those who
> > contributed advise.  I do appreciate it.
>
> > Photos attached here:
>

> >https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=114171552924642549314&ta...

[Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery]

Also, the saddle looks like it's pushed forward of center in the seatpost clamp. I'd slide it all the way back, and if you still feel excessively stretched, try a stem with shorter extension.

[PATRICK MOORE]

Odd: I had some fortunately rare sharp, low back pain recently and
while it was hard to stand upright, I was perfectly comfortable on the
Riv with bar 3 cm below saddle. That has happened more than once.

Repeating like scratched vinyl, I think saddle setback is the key.
Long torso, short limbs.

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--
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Albuquerque, NM
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[Way Rebb]

I just shortened my stem from 10 to 8cm. Doesn't sound like much but
it's like a new bike, everything just fell into place. So much
better. I had the bars raised to the limit but it always felt like I
was reaching for the positions, a little different that stretching.
During rides I started letting my hand drop into the various positions
on the bar thinking "okay if this was in the right position my hand
would be here...or here...or here". The positions were always about 2
or 3 cm away from the where the bar was. Now I can actually make up
and down adjustments that make sense (rather than up, up, up) and
have more of the stem inside the tube which makes for a much more
solid ride.

Regards,
Ray

On Apr 3, 11:09 am, Bruce Curry <currybru...@gmail.com> wrote:
> OK RivBikers.. You had me at Bike Porn.
>
> This is with the latest stem raise to 4cm above saddle height to
> alleviate back pain.  Will be adjusting per Dr. Esteban's advise later
> today to see if my spine remains intact.  I thank all those who
> contributed advise.  I do appreciate it.
>

> Photos attached here:https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/sredir?uname=114171552924642549314&ta...

[Steven Frederick]

Just to pile on, moving my saddle forward and lowering my bars a little went a long way to curing my lower back pain...

Steve