Advice sought: mounting Nitto M12 or similar front rack to Paul cantis

[Bob]

Does anyone here have experience mounting a Nitto M12, or any front rack that attaches to the cantilever-brake bolts, to Paul brakes (either Touring Cantis or Neo-Retros)? If so, is there anything I'm unlikely to know but should before starting? (I am aware that I'll want Paul's Rack Adapters.)

I have a vague, possibly faulty, recollection of caution somewhere that the process is difficult because Paul brakes extend farther forward from the bosses than other cantilever brakes.

Thank you.

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Bob

[S. Greco]

I recommend using spacers instead of the rack adapters.  The rack adapters are heavy, and they make it annoying to adjust the brakes. I used 'Aluminum Unthreaded Spacers" from McMaster-Carr do to this with a nitto rack/Paul anti setup and it made it much easier to work on the brakes.

You'll be able to fit a rack with adjustable stays (like Nitto M-18, F-27 or Rene Herse UD-2, etc) better to the bike.

[Bob]

Thanks, Steven. So I'd just need a longer M6 screw along with these spacers? The Touring Cantis have a 20 mm screw, so I'd need something like an M6x40?

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Bob

[S. Greco]

Yes, a longer M6 is needed to make up whatever additional length is added with the spacer.

[brizbarn]

You could also use any extra chainring bolts that you might have laying around instead of buying spacers.  I have shimano v-brakes and a VO rack, but your setup should be similar.  Longer allen bolts definitely needed, not sure how long mine are tho.  Looks like I used a washer at head of bolt too.

[Bob]

Essentially the procedure, whether using chainring bolts or non-threaded spacers, is just repace Paul's supplied M6 bolt with a bolt long enough to clear whatever I'm using for spacers plus the rack stay itself. Seems simple enough. Thank you.

[greenteadrinkers]

I have a set of the Paul rack mount bolts I'd sell for cheap if you are interested. They didn't work out for me.

Best,

Scott

[Brian Barnhart]

Yup. I only went to the longer bolt set up after striping out VO canto-rack bolts cause they didn’t provide enough spacing. 

On Aug 9, 2023, at 7:37 AM, greenteadrinkers <greentea...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have a set of the Paul rack mount bolts I'd sell for cheap if you are interested. They didn't work out for me.

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[Bill Lindsay]

You are getting good advice on workarounds for this combination.  I think you understand it, but I think for the benefit of others, it's worth stating that the Nitto M12 + Paul Cantilever brakes is not an ideal combination.  The Nitto M12 was made to work with cantilever brakes that do not extend past the end of the cantilever posts.  Did Compe DC980, recently sold by Rivendell are one of those models.  Paul cantilever brakes can work awesome with a small front rack, but does best with rack models that have adjustable struts.  The Rene Herse UD-2 is the best of those (and is manufactured by Nitto).  

Folks can make that combo work, but it takes work to get good results.  For those who are not yet stuck with that combination, there are other combos that work together more effortlessly.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Bob]

Bill,

Thank you for this. I recall reading the very thing some years ago, but have been unable to find it again; hence my post here.

I have the RH UD-1 on one bike, and am impressed with it, so the UD-2 may be the way I go.

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Bob

[Will M]

Hey Bob,

I installed an M12 on my Paul Touring Cantis (with the Paul Rack Adapters).  I agree with Bill L. that the UD-2's adjustable side struts -- or the VO rando rack's adjustable fork crown strut -- make leveling the rack way easier (for those of us with canti boses but without dedicated rando rack braze-ons).

For completeness of the thread:

1. I had no trouble installing the Paul Rack Adapters... as simple as installing the brakes with the rack adapters, adjusting brake spring tension with a 14mm wrench, and then installing the rack.  Done.  Well, not quite...
2. As Bill points out, the brakes (and hence, the rack adapters) protrude so far in front of the brake bosses that the struts lift the M12's nose skyward. One can correct to some degree by maxing out the spacers where the rack's fork crown bolt inserts into the fork crown.  But there isn't enough thread on the back of the rack's fork crown bolt to get the rack level. Here's a picture of the best I could do.  
3. Don't do this!  I first installed the M12 using "normal width" IRD canti brakes, and drilled my aluminum fender to screw the fender to the bottom of the M12 with a smallish spacer.  When I swapped out the IRDs for the Paul Cantis, the rack moved so far forward that a new fender hole needed to be drilled.  Swiss cheese.
   
4. About that spacer between the rack and fender, a BIG spacer is needed.  (Here's a pic of the spacer needed to keep the fender concentric with the 700c x 38mm tire.)
5. Some folks have bent their racks in a vise to make the geometry work out a little better.  Here's a blog post on this.  But I didn't want to.
6. Thank you Grant Petersen/RBW for putting dedicated rando rack braze-ons on my Rambouillet.  It was soooooo much easier to install a Mark's Rack. 

Cheers,

Will M

NYC

[Scott G.]

The Rene Herse Nitto Rack mounted with the Nitto aluminum struts.

To Paul mounting bolts.

Never could figure how to get the steel struts to fit.

Scott G.

[Eliot Balogh]

On a slightly different note, I wonder if you could use a Suntour Power Hanger as a spacer. I’ve been fantasizing about that today. It would allow a lower straddle for more braking power, eliminates the stem/steer mounted cable stop, eliminates hanger strike on the rack crown mount and reportedly gives the brakes a firmer feeling and minimizes fork shudders. 

All of that being said, I don’t know if you can pull the central bolt out or if you would have enough clearance for everything or if it would just look totally stupid. But I might experiment and report back. 

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[abraham nussbaum]

Has anyone tried running the Allygn Diamond racks to a pair of Paul cantis? Their website says they work with cantis, but I've never seen it done.

[Bob]

I'd not heard of this rack until now. I can't figure, from the photos, how one would mount it to cantilever studs; the holes on the stays point the wrong direction.

As I originated this thread, I should say that I never followed through on an attempt to install a rack on Paul cantis. For various reasons I decided the bike in question, a mid-1990s (I think) AR of which I am the third (I think) owner, didn't really need to have a handlebar bag.

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Bob

[J-D Bamford]

Word to the wise... Paul Rack Adapters use a fairly small stud. This is purely user error on my part, but you cannot tighten those little nyloc nuts very much on the Paul adapters because they will easily strip the adapter threads (or twist the stud right off the adapter). It's a costly and inconvenient mistake that's easy to make.

[Brian Turner]

I forced this Rene Herse UD-2 canti rack onto my 26” Atlantis by bending the adjustable struts. I had a backup pair in case I butchered the job, but it worked pretty perfectly. I’m also using the Paul rack adapters.

[Minh]

I have to say the bending prowess or bravery in this thread is strong, both installation modifications look great.

[abraham nussbaum]

Thanks, all. I agree that it seems unlikely to work and, potentially dangerous.

I got interested in it because Russ from PLP ran a video about how much I liked the rack/bag they make. I checked it out and saw that claim, but I could not see how it mounted to cantis.

A quick search of this forum turned up an old post and I decided to see if folks were still reading. As always, this list is populated by smart, thoughtful folks. Thank you!

For context, I picked up a beautiful Nobillette rando that does not have midrack fender mounts. (It was someone else's custom-- I would have ordered them if it was my build.) It's a rando frame and I would love to run a rando bag, but a) dislike running a rack to the low mount and b) am searching for something less spendy than the Rene Herse UD-2.

Thanks for the advice:

-be careful tightening those adapters

-keep a care spare of struts

-be a master strut bender

Or.... go without a front rack. I'll also consider a small bag support.... or any other smart ideas from this board. Thanks!

[Bob]

Wow, Abraham—that's a beautiful bicycle. Mark's work is stunning. Depending on measurements, I'm sure you could make a RH rack work. Yes, they're spendy, but man, they are really, really nice. I have a UD-1 on a bike and I'm glad I do.

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Bob

[Brian Barnhart]

Have you emailed Gramm about the canti stud mounting option?  I imagine the rack might come with a separate set of struts for mounting to canti brake bosses.  Maybe they just don't have pics of the canti mounting setup on their website. 

I have a velo orange rando front rack that is mounted to Riv appaloosa canti brake bosses, but the VO rack has that built in specific canit brake mounting point.  I just used a couple of chainring hardware pieces to act as spacers/washers, no need for special bolts, just use the bolts that come with your brakes. 

Something like this VO has the built in decaleur for a rando bag, which keeps bag mounting simple, with less worry about getting the height correct on a regular decaleur. - https://velo-orange.com/collections/front-racks/products/rando-front-rack-with-integrated-decaleur-cantilever

Might not be what you're looking for, but it's another option.

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[abraham nussbaum]

Thanks, all, for the great advice. Eager for the build-- it's a dream frame.

I emailed Gramm and will let you know if I hear back. 

Put that VO rack on the maybe list.

Also: anyone holding a Rene Herse M-13 with the light mount they want to sell?

[Bill Lindsay]

Skip outed one on Craigslist for only $100 over on the internet-bob group.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[abraham nussbaum]

Thanks, Bill! Dropped him an email....

[abraham nussbaum]

It sold before I could buy, but am thinking about trying this one:

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B07KPSFG43/ref=pe_386300_440135490_TE_simp_item_image

Great price for Nitto.

[abraham nussbaum]

Just for the curious, here is what Allygn said about the rack which started the thread:

This is possible but requires an advanced installation with bending and drilling of the stays. You may need some extra spacers (which can be included from us).
Please have a look at the pictures of this Fern Rando bike... https://www.fern-fahrraeder.de/arbeiten/chacha-rando-650b