My First Riv - c.2016 Sam H - Help needed for Newbie

[Brian Carbajal]

Hi all, 

Long time lurker here. I just purchased by first Riv frame. It's a c.2016 Sam H 51cm. 

I'm looking to build this out to be solid all-rounder, keeping very classic styling w/ all its parts. Wanna avoid snake oil purchases– will spend $$$ where truly needed. Also– will be doing my own assembly/maintenance for lack of a LBS nearby. 

I realize this is a lot to ask from you knowledgeable folks– so any help is very much appreciated. 

HERE is a list of tools I already own/list of components I'm looking to buy. Any and all notes/recs are welcome. Along with any personal tips on assembly. 

[Bill Lindsay]

It's hard to predict how well this is going to go. We see very enthusiastic newbies jump in with both feet. Some absolutely nail it on their first try, and others build something, show it off proudly, claim to love it on day one, offer it up for sale on day ten, and start over just as enthusiastically on something else. 

So, do you actually have a frame on-hand?  Is it frame/fork/headset only?   No BB, no nothing else?  Or do you not have it on hand?  Start uploading photos to your Google Drive.  

On the Google Document you link, you say you have all the tools listed, and you have none of the parts listed.  Is that correct?  Are you asking this group to sell you things?  Or are you asking us to tell you what you should buy?  

You need to completely re-think your tires/wheels/brakes strategy.  

- I'm 99% certain a 27.5" x 2.22" tire won't fit a Sam Hillborne frame.  650Bx38 definitely.  650Bx42 probably, but not with fenders.  605Bx45 maybe.  

- The wider a tire you run, the wider you need your brakes to open up.  You are specifiying non-aero brake levers which have no QR button, and you are specifying brake calipers with no QR and nowhere near enough reach to reach around the tires you want, and that have a nutted attachment configuration.  If your Hillborne is a sidepull brake model, you will need recessed allen mounting and a longer reach, and while you are choosing brakes you should select ones that will open wide enough for the tires you are running.  

- I don't follow exactly what you mean by 'classic looks' because a bike with drop bars, a sloping top tube and fat tires looks contemporary to me.  By 'classic' do you mean silver in color?  By 'classic' do you mean 'boxy and non-aerodynamic in shape'?  

-if you want to buy a wheelset from this group, the important parts are that your OLD dimensions are 100mm and 135mm.  

-do you really have no local bike shop?  Where roughly are you located?  I think the best thing would be to get a test wheelset installed so you can figure out your tire and brake caliper situation.  If somebody local to you had a wheelset that you could fire in there to test fit, it would do you a world of good, and posting those mockup photos would be helpful to anybody who is going to advise you.  

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Conway Bennett]

I have a 44 cm noodle bar I can sell you. If you're riding a 51 cm frame it should be appropriate.

[Michael Morrissey]

Get good tools! You don't really need "imperial" tools. Only metric.

I recently upgraded to Wera Zyklop tools - amazing. I wish I had done this years ago. I would have been so much better off. Also, mini-air compressors that plug into your car are cheaper than floor pumps for bikes at this point. I have one called "EPAuto" from Amazon. It dials in air pressure to half a PSI. I'm running 45 PSI right now by the way. Thanks for asking ;)

Paired with this Silca chuck it's amazing for bikes!

https://www.amazon.com/Silca-Presta-Chuck-Stainless-Steel/dp/B0055X4ESQ/ref=asc_df_B0055X4ESQ/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=312094794167&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1215468814743518508&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004077&hvtargid=pla-570079685745&psc=1&tag=&ref=&adgrpid=63784736042&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvadid=312094794167&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=1215468814743518508&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9004077&hvtargid=pla-570079685745

Good luck! The Hillborne looks nice! I'm sure you'll love it.

m

[Michael Morrissey]

Also the WolfTooth tools are really nice quality! You might want to look at those.

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 11:10:05 AM UTC-5 bria...@gmail.com wrote:

[Ian A]

Hard to beat Shimano hubs for quality and longevity, especially taking cost into consideration. Deore and Tiagra are the starting point in the product line up where the quality becomes excellent.

I would encourage you to shop for complete wheelsets though. Great deals can be had at times.

IanA Alberta Canada

[aeroperf]

Bill Lindsay is straight to the point.  “What do you mean by…”

Also, bikes are like stereo systems.  $$ for a good one, $$$ for a slightly better one, $$$$ for a VERY slightly better one.  Price goes up exponentially for parts where you may never feel the difference.

As one who became a bicycle mechanic after getting my first Sam, I suggest:
Velocity Atlas rims/Velocity hubs.  Quality without breaking the bank.  Just order a set and have Velocity put them together.  Save learning spoke lacing for your second bike.
Limit your tires to 650bx42.  You DID say “all rounder”, so why would you want beach tires?
You can’t go wrong with Tektro 559 brakes and Shimano BL-R550 brake levers, as long as you keep your tires around 42 mm and have straight bars.
3x front and 9x or 10x rear.  Actual components depend on if you think it is a road bike or not.  Deore MD-M591, Sora FD-3030 works well for me.
If you can find it, the Suguino XD-2 with 170mm arms is a good, basic crank to start with.

Handlebars, stem, and controls are all personal preference, and you should be prepared to try a number of them.  If you have a current bike that fits, measure the distance between seat and bar grips, and try to match that with your stem.  I prefer bar-end shifters on albatross bars, but thumb shifters work, too.  I can’t use drop bars, but others swear by them.  My personal opinion is that downtube shifters require too much fumbling around just to find the shifter.

You need a full set of metric box/open end wrenches for your tool set.  Also a cassette locking tool to remove/install cassettes on the freehub (Park FR-5.2G).
A pedal wrench would be a good addition, and a chain whip.
With what you already have, you should at least be able to get rolling with these.

Good luck—

[Nathan F]

Hello fellow Sam owner! Lots of good advice has already been offered in this thread. 

I have an '18 in the same color, but with canti brakes. It was my first build as well, and I blinged out whenever and wherever possible. Retail cost of the build was ~$5000. White cranks and hubs, polished Velocity Quills, Paul brakes, Nitto finishing kit, etc., and I can say the only things that were "worth" it were the brakes. I'm very happy with the Pauls--if you can get the centerpulls they make to work on your bike, I'd recommend them. For the crank, order one of the "Clipper" sets from Riv or Soma. They're such a great deal.

My big advice to you is regarding the wheels. It's hard to recommend a set without knowing your weight. I know the Riv crowd loves the Atlas, but it is an incredibly burly rim that you likely don't need. A23s or Quills are the better all round rims for most people. Pacenti and HED are nice as well. Assuming you're <300lb and not doing heavily loaded touring, 32H front / rear should be the MAX spoke counts you need.

Wheels are a real sticking point for me because the general advice on here can be quite dated. When Riv-built Rivs come into the shop I work, they are frequently the most overbuilt bikes I've ever seen. We're talking a 100lb woman riding 36H touring wheels for riding in the city when they could easily, and safely, be on 24H cyclocross race wheels. Onetime someone had a bike that, again, they were just riding in the city (no loaded touring) with a 42H rear wheel. It's utter madness. Once you add in the propensity for Riv owners to ride terrible tires--I've been so happy to see Riv overhaul their tire program--these bikes end up not being as fun to ride as they should be. 

[Eric Karnes]

Lots of good advice here. 

My own experience is that a nice, light but sturdy set of wheels and good-quality tires are the best investment you can make in a bike (outside the Riv frame). Other than dialing in the cockpit, that’s where I spend most of my overall bike budget these days. As mentioned, choice of wheels depends on your weight and intended use. I’m 170ish and much prefer lighter wheels and suppler tires–even when I’m carrying a small load in front or back. That said, I don’t do any loaded touring. My current preference for rims in the H Plus Son Archetype 32H. Wide enough for most tires that Sam can handle, the tires and tubes come off and on easily for on-trail repairs, and they are relatively light. Matched with a decent hub, it makes for a really nicely riding wheel. Like Nathan, Atlas and 36+H is way overbuilt for me, but it all depends on your weight and riding style.

As for drivetrain, I’m a huge fan of the Sugino XD crank that Riv used to sell. You can probably find a used one on this group or pick up one of the ‘Clipper’ versions mentioned–which are a similar design. Having tried all manner of fancy groupsets, I still find Shimano Deore to be the best overall deal for mixed riding. It works perfectly with lots of different shifters, is relatively light in weight, can handle wider-range cassettes, and is pretty much indestructible. Again, you can usually find these used or on closeout prices if you want to save a few dollars.

Cockpits (handlebars, stems, saddles) are very much dependent on personal preference, riding style, and rider anatomy. Ask ten riders and you’ll get ten wildly different answers. I’ve found the writings of James from Analog cycles very helpful (you can find them on the Analog cycles website). And as with Riv, I always try to buy things from them in order to support the work they are doing.  

Enjoy the build!

Eric

[Mark Roland]

Slight dissenting opinion here. I agree, a light wheelset is nice--especially on a lightweight frameset, where, if you are counting grams, lighter wheels will help (though once you are up to speed, and you are not climbing a big hill, any little gains are no longer in play).

But the Sam is a country bike, not a 22lb fast club ride bike (though of course, you can do that on this bike, yes). A basic Atlas wheelset is not horribly overbuilt. A smaller lighter rider may not need it, but it can't hurt, and it looks more "classic" than some of the other options, and will undoubtedly be less expensive than a 28h wheel built for cyclocross racing.

I built an Atlas wheelset with a Shimano dyno hub and a Velocity rear for my Clem commuter this spring. I am 160lbs. It so happened that the rear was a 36 rebuild and the dyno hub I had on hand was a 32 hole, but for a bike like this it's not really critical.  At 650b they could both have been 32 or both 36, it is not going to affect anything done on this bike. Very happy with the performance. Note that I had to rebuild that rear because I hit a tremendous pothole and it put an irrepairable flat spot in the original Atlas rim. So yeah, stuff happens out there. But if you have a robust bike frame like the Sam, putting an expensive lightweight wheelset on isn't going to change your world.

[Patrick Moore]

I had to laugh at this. I'm not a heavyweight but I do weigh between 170 and 175 and often carry rear loads, but I've been using 19 mm (outside) 370 gram 559 rims both on and off road for decades (still have a stash: Sun M14A) in 32 rear and 32 or 28 front; wheels never went out of true, and only times I broke spokes was twice using Revolutions with aluminum nipples to carry 35 lb rear loads on 22 mm tires; brass nipples and 14/15 gauge fixed that. (I never got pinch flats either). I've used the same wheels off road with some violence, with no problems. My 29er wheels are 32 spoke; no out-of-true; and I never had out-of-true problems with lightish 622 road rims on- or off-road. (Pressure is another puzzle. I put 90/80 in 23s, 50-45 in 28s, 35-30 in 40s, and 18 to 21 in 60s.)

OTOH, one of the nicest feeling wheelsets I ever rode was a many-owner pair built around old 40 hole Campy Record hubs on a 1960s Paramount track bike belonging to my brother (he was partly serious). Like butter and perpetual motion.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 8:21 AM Nathan F <nathan...@gmail.com> wrote:

... Wheels are a real sticking point for me because the general advice on here can be quite dated. When Riv-built Rivs come into the shop I work, they are frequently the most overbuilt bikes I've ever seen. We're talking a 100lb woman riding 36H touring wheels for riding in the city when they could easily, and safely, be on 24H cyclocross race wheels. Onetime someone had a bike that, again, they were just riding in the city (no loaded touring) with a 42H rear wheel. It's utter madness. Once you add in the propensity for Riv owners to ride terrible tires--I've been so happy to see Riv overhaul their tire program--these bikes end up not being as fun to ride as they should be.

--

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Patrick Moore

Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

[Nathan F]

I've used the same wheels off road with some violence

 

Ha! What a great description. Regarding the Clipper, supposedly it is the same mold as the Sugino, so they should be identical. 

The Atlas and the A23 are the same price, except a set of A23s are 3/4 lb lighter. If you want classic looks get the Pacenti Brevet which is basically the same weight as the A23. Dyads or cliffhangers are more appropriate if they'll be doing heavy duty (or off-road) touring. I just really don't see the appeal of the Atlas, beyond that Riv sung it's praises over a decade ago. 

[Brian Carbajal]

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the notes– very appreciative of the time you took to reply. 

- Dumb mistake on the tires– didn't realize the thickness of those. Just saw the 27.5 and immediately thought oh this will fit 650b. I'll go with 650b x 38– that should be thick enough to get most things done for me. 

- Based on the note above, what do you mean by QR? Will I need to get specific combo of Side pull brakes &  Levers?

- Mostly wanted help on this components list to spot out non-compatible parts with this build

- Classic can mean diff things to all of us... so to specify– I love vintage road & track / classic commuters look. Which is why I have admired Riv. I think the phat tires look good and will be mainly functional, same for the drop bar. For example those breaks on my list look more old-school to my eye than something like a Shimano set. Genuinely hate the look of stuff like the Shimano- so if i can avoid components like that it's ideal. 

- Yes, all tools noted are ones I currently own. I have yet to purchase all the components for this build on the list so I can change my list out no problem based on recs.  

- Really, no bike shop close by I'm out in the boonies. I've gotta do this build DIY style– which is how I prefer to do most things anyway. I'm not looking for a perfect ride right out the gate either– I know that will take time for me to learn. 

PS. If anyone has parts for this frame in good condition shoot me an email. Open to most things. 

[Coco Menk]

BB Tool, crank puller, chain breaker 

[dougP]

Not a required tool, but Park's triangular multi-allen tool is invaluable.  4, 5, & 6 mm keys mounted on a hub that makes the two you aren't using a handle so you can put on enough force to get things tight.  Also a real cable housing cutter.  You can cut housing with ordinary wire cutters but it crushes it into an oval & leaves a jagged end.  Spring for the real deal. 

dougP

On Monday, November 9, 2020 at 8:10:05 AM UTC-8 bria...@gmail.com wrote:

[Bill Lindsay]

I pointed out that the Dia Compe 730 side pulls that the OP has on his list will absolutely not work.  They are nutted, but you need recessed allen.  They don't have a long enough reach to reach 650B rims.  They don't have enough width to wrap around 42mm tires.  They don't have a quick release, so they can't open to allow you to remove a wheel without completely deflating your tire.  That's four deal-killers.  

For a 650B Sam Hillborne, there are basically three choices:  Tektro 559, Paul Racer, or maybe if you can find them, the Dia Compe 750.  

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/braking/products/brakes-sidepull-tektro-r559-allen

https://www.rivbike.com/collections/braking/products/brakes-centerpull-paul-racer

The Tektros are sidepulls and inexpensive.  The Pauls are centerpulls and are very expensive.  The Dia Compe 750 is a centerpull like the Paul, but is inexpensive like the Tektro.  

These are the choices because you have a bike that takes fat tires.  You can't use 'classic' or 'old school' brakes, for the most part, because none of them have a big enough reach to wrap around your fat tires or to reach your rims.  My recommendation is to just buy the Tektros.  They work fine and look fine.

Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA

[Mark Roland]

I believe the A23s have not been available in 650b for a while now, could be wrong. I have a pair waiting, but the skinny brake track is a negative for me. Kind of dainty looking for a Sam anyway. Cliffhangers, on the other hand, too beefy, also not classic. Pacenti is a nice choice, now that they've fixed the cracking issues with the first generation rims. They will save you a quarter pound over  Altas; not much in the scheme of things. It would be like going to McDonald's and buying two quarter pounders and putting one in your basket and one on your rack.  And, unless you ride like PM, the Pacenti might limit you a bit.

The Atlas a decade ago (or whenever it was that it came out) was in a smaller field (though the rim brake offerings are shrinking again) and a great versatile rim to build into a classic-looking, highly useful, do-it -all except win races wheel, a perfect match for most Rivendell models. In my opinion it still is. No question I would choose the Pacenti for a L'Avecaise or a Weigle or maybe even the upcoming Gallup or something of that ilk. For a Sam build I would go Atlas 9 times out of ten. Then again, I thought the stock Alex rims that come with the completes were just fine, so I guess I'm not very discriminating.

[Mark Roland]

I consider the Dia Compe/Weinmann  750s both classic (Raleighs, UJBs, etc.) and old school (bmx). Not as ubiquitous on eBay as in days gone by, but they are still relatively easy to source there and elsewhere. Some people don't like them. I do. On one of my most used bicycles, I have them set up with a release at the hanger and one on the lever, making it easy to remove a fully inflated 38mm tire. For bigger, you might need to unhook the cable, which takes a couple seconds once the release is activated.

[Mark Roland]

BTW, that fender is not installed, just a clearance check! (Last thing I need is a citation from the Fenderline Police!!;^)

[ascpgh]

Different riders do different things to wheels, regardless of their weight, cargo loads and primary terrain. You could construct a perfectly adequate or overbuilt wheel set for some and they'd consume them in short order while others seem to glide through years before wear is enough to consider replacement.. 

 I remember pondering why certain customers should have a wheel build card good for a free tenth build after nine stamps. A light rider who rides like their wheels are the face of a hammer can eat a wheel set on road or off in no time but a rider who distributes both output and input energies carefully can baby a set of wheels for a very long time. There will always be that one time event that kills a wheel in a single strike. 

Unfortunately we all have to learn where we are on that spectrum by going too heavy or too light at some time. Going a bit strong at first may result in dreams of lighter wheels releasing from the bonds of physics but going light can leave you calling for a ride or worse.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh 

[lconley]

Dia Compe DC-750 are in production and available new (with allen bolts for the brake arm connection for a more modern appearance), and you can interchange some parts with DC-610s to install them with recessed nuts on the rear - the stock units can be installed recessed on the front.

I have Dia Compe DC-610 front and DC-750 rear on my Riv Mystery Bike - similar to the Weinmann 610 front / 750 rear on one of my Paramount P-15s.

You can also get GC-700 centerpulls that use post mounted brake shoes similar to Mafac / Rene Herse.

Laing

[Mark Roland]

Yes, they even come in colors on some of the BMX sites (though might be rear only, so you would need to swap in some front bolts.)

[lconley]

I am talking about centerpulls, are you?:

Laing

[islaysteve]

Just a note on cutting cable housing:  If you already have a Dremel tool, they work great to cut housing with a standard cutting wheel.  Definitely invest in a real cable cutter if you don't have one.   Good luck on your build!

[Mark Roland]

I guess you missed the two photos of the center pulls on my bikes I posted above. Yes, it's true, Dia Compe 750s are center pull brakes, and only center pull brakes.