Toyo frames

[Chuck Blessing]

I've occasionally seen this term in ads, posts, etc. What is the meaning of it, and is it better than a non Toyo frame? 

Chuck 

[Mathias Steiner]

I'm a Riv spectator rather than owner, but I think I can answer this one:

In its earlier days, Rivendell had non-custom bicycles built en masse -- a 'masse' being maybe a dozen of one size, at most -- by small high-quality builders, the most prominent being Waterford in WI and Toyo in Japan.

Grant's official published position has always been that the two shops are of equivalent quality.

Those with multiple older Rivendells may have insights into the differences, if any, between Toyo and Waterford frames.

For the longest time, there were models built in Taiwan, which were different than the models built in the expensive shops. As in, Hilsen = Toyo or Waterford; Hillborne = Taiwan.
This fell by the wayside, maybe with the pandemic, around the time the Appaloosa appeared. That was supposed to be the Taiwan Atlantis, and now the two kind of crowd each other.

Note that Grant has nothing but praise for his Taiwan builders.

I want to stress that this is all second-hand knowledge.

cheers -m

[Glen]

Toyo was the early frame builder for Rivendell. They are a Japanese company with a long history of building frames. 

Somewhere in a Riv Reader there is an article on them. You may be able to find some information on Jim's site http://www.cyclofiend.com/rbw/ 

As for better, well of course they are if you have one :-)

[Jason Fuller]

As covered, Toyo was used to build Rivendell batch frames for a period when it was more cost-effective than building stateside at Waterford, but a couple years later exchange rates made it not as economically viable to have frames made in Japan anymore so they started working with Maxway in Taiwan. The quality is very similar across all three, the tubing is essentially the same, but there is an emotional component that can make one have value over the other. 

[Chuck Blessing]

Thanks all for your explanations. That clears it up for me.

[iamkeith]

To Mathias' note  I would suggest that Richard Sachs, Mark Nobillette and Joe Starck were the most notable early builders.. along with but ahead of Waterford.  But I suggest that mostly because doing so  illustrates a point:  that there's a lot of subjective measure as to what or whos is "better."

As the others note, Grant has always been very adamant that all of Rivendell's "factories" are equally good, so who are we to challenge that.  As the others state, having Toyo make larger batches was just one step in a continuous and ongoing process of trying to keep the bikes affordable.

All that said, and since I own a couple of Toyo-built models, I like to IMAGINE that they have some special magic.  If you can find the Reader article, it is pretty interesting.  I want to say mid 40s in issue no.  The biggest thing, if I remember correctly, was the amount of experience and expertise the builders had.  There were several "tiers" of craftsmen, with the most important work being left to the seniors.  (Or do zI have this mixed up with Nitto??!  Maybe both?) They were/are true craftsmen, seeing brazing as a calling and lifetime career, and multi-generational in some cases. In theory, experience keeps someone from over-heating a tube, or impropperly filling a joint, and "could" make a stronger and prettier frame.  In practice, it probably doesn't make much difference. I don’t know if there's room or appreciation for that level of craftsmanship in the world anymore.  I bought the Japanese Steel coffee table book from Riv.  It is nice to think about a time when that culture DID exist. 

There were other, minordetails that only an overly obsessed bike geek would care about, like: subtlely s-shaped chainstays on the Atlantis;  graceful, double-taper seat stays on the Rambouillet; and artfully thinned edges on the lugs of the Saluki.  Many of the high-quality steel tubes that era are no longer made, but I don't know if they were superior or not.  Tubing manufacture and metalurgy is a huge rabbit hole to jump into, if someone was interested.  Grant has always shunned the ultra-lite, exotic tubes in favor of durability, anyway.  One other interesting thought is that, in that era, the frames were 100% brazed (maybe with the exception of canti posts).  So a damaged tube or stay could theoretically be replaced with greater ease.

All the design refinements manifested in the newer models certainly out-weigh any artisan touches of the old models.  Some day, when China takes Taiwan, we're all going to wax nostalgic about what we have now!

[dougP]

I bought my Atlantis in '03. One time, another Atlantis owner asked if mine had "roundy lugs or pointy lugs". Don't know if that IDs the builder. I figure if it's good enough for Grant it's good enough for me. 20+ years of loaded touring in all sorts of conditions & sometimes minimal maintenance, & the bike is still going strong. It has been abused enough that I had it repainted a few years back. It was way beyond "beausage".

dougP

[dougP]

PS: the current Atlantis design rides better than mine. But it's just a bike, after all. I wouldn't stress about who built it if it's a Rivendell.

dougP

[John Dewey]

Here goes beauty Toyo RAM, exquisite JB paint. Like new tho now age 20–pristine thanks to my affectations…despite thousands of satisfying kilometers. I draw special joy in taking care of my bicycles, like a concert pianist might his favorite piano. Play it hard but make it sound soft and sweet. I’m not a pianist but I take care as if I were. 

It’s a gift that makes me blush every time we get together. 

JD

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/331c7c86-17d9-4ee9-9698-a2f3a0f20b51n%40googlegroups.com.

[Josh C]

The Toyo frame Rivs are different, but IMO, this is mostly due to the design of the era. They are two different bikes, but again, this is MOSTLY because of design, and not the manufacturer.  I have a 2002 Atlantis and a newer one with the swoopy tube and longer stays, and they are two different bikes. The ride quality couldn't be more different. The specs on the one that is supposed to come out in 2025 read like the original Clem H. They are making it longer and longer. They may have the same name but are not the same bike. I'm not saying this is necessarily a bad thing, but it's not the same bike. 

[Nick Payne]

I have a Toyo built Romulus, a Bleriot which I believe was made by Maxway, a Riv custom built by Curt Goodrich, and an Appaloosa which I guess is probably made by  Maxway as well. I can't really differentiate the quality of the lugwork and paint between the three factory-built frames, it's fine on all of them, as is the handling. The custom feels the nicest, particularly over indifferent road surfaces, but then the tubing sizes and gauges were chosen to suit a rider of my 63Kg weight, whereas the factory frames have to be built to potentially cope with much heavier riders - when I had the custom built, I also specified that it wouldn't be loaded with anything more than required for day tours, so it didn't have to be built to potentially cope with carrying a heavy touring load.

Nick Payne

[iamkeith]

The Toyo article is in Reader #31.

https://notfine.com/rivendell/

I can see how I romanticized my recollection of it.  I don't think they're the ones who reserved certain tasks for elder artisans.  They're a company like many, who train employees in their methods and culture, and hope they'll be around to continue in the future.

[ascpgh]

To the unaccounted elevation of Toyo-built versus others, they were still a mass maker, just smaller volume and able to solve the economic formula of the moment given all the variables. You can bet Grant knows about exchange rates and the implications of even an economic choice of wholesale costing if in another currency. 

A mass maker is still that. Your name isn't on the bike and the uses you intend may match the marketing descriptions but you can still come up short of perfect.

My Toyo-built Rambouillet has had the rear dropouts replaced (the DS one broke right across its entry into the chainstay) and the rear brake bridge rebrazed because it broke out of the seat stays. Fortunately for me the solid pool of brass was like a socket that kept the caliper the right distance from the axle, even if it did rotate a few degrees on the side where it popped when the pads grabbed the rim. 

RBW had MN replace the dropouts and JB resprayed the orange-sicle finish. By the time I had the stay reattached, not at a higher position since clearance was already better than the fork's, I had it done locally and did and rattle can spot repaint to cover the steel. Yes there were no Toyo Rams with windows of cream like the head tube on the seat stays, except mine.

So now at the Toyo Rambouillet's twenty year mark I'm riding two bikes for my travels my longer, heavier trips are on a bike made custom for me, my uses and preferences of loading. You could only conform to a Toyo-built bike's intentions, hopefully they are close to your own. Otherwise the subtle nuances of a custom made for you is only limited by the conversations and ideas of a builder you engage.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

[ascpgh]

I do not have the fastidiousness of circumstance or habit to keep my bikes that nice. 

Not that I abuse them, I definitely think I'm a bike owner that keeps bikes a long time but depend on them to deliver what I expect and sometimes the margins blur.

Andy Cheatham

Pittsburgh

 

On Monday, November 4, 2024 at 7:25:00 PM UTC-5 John Dewey wrote:

[David Hays]

I believe my 56cm 650B Homer is a Toyo. When they changed manufacturer they moved away from the level top bar that I prefer.

Does anyone know if Toyo is still in business?

David Hays

Williamsville, New York 

To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/093d2272-c4ac-4702-a865-781076089f25n%40googlegroups.com.

[Christian Santa]

If you're curious to see the Toyo Factory and its history, watch the below YouTube link I happened to come across as I researched this topic several weeks ago. It's not directly Rivendell related, but they do mention how they used to build other brands and how they've evolved. It's an interesting watch if you're a visual type of person and a fellow Toyo owner like myself. 

https://youtu.be/EajhYjSUxaU?si=8f4OFH9yBvd5yk2Q

-Christian Santa

[Johnny Alien]

I think a lot of the elevated appreciation of Toyo built frames has more to do with the classic designs of the era more than the actual factory.

[Corwin Zechar]

Hi Christian -

Actually, Toyo frames have a 3 degree upslope in the top tube from back to front. Not easy to see, but visible if you look carefully.

I have a creamsicle Ram and a green Quickbeam. Both Toyo built. Also have a custom and a Roadeo built by Mark Nobilette. And a Hubbuhubbuh presumably built by Maxway. Each bike is different, but similar in critical ways. Each bike is rock solid stable and descends incredibly well. When descending, the bikes follow a line effortlessly and are easy to control.

My Quickbeam is outfitted with a Platrack and Platsack, and frequently hold loads north of 15-20 lbs. Whatever the load, the bike handles and rides flawlessly. The Ram rides like a dream. Accelerating instantly and descending as if we are free of the constraints of aerodynamics and physics. The custom disappears out from under me when I ride. I only sense the struggle of steep climbs and the screaming speed of descents. Instant acceleration and near instant stops.

I prefer Toyo frames over the more recent designs (Appaloosa, Platypus, Clem, etc.) only because I employ a compact posture. My distaste for upright posture is probably the only place where Grant and I diverge. This is not to say I don't support riding with an upright posture. My stoker loves riding upright. Our Hubbuhubbuh has Albastache for the captain and Bosco bars for the stoker. And I rode thousands of miles on the Cunningham tandem, outfitted with Bosco bars front and back.

I agree that differences between Toyo/Waterford frames and more recent Maxway frames made for Rivendell have lots more to do with the design of the bike/frame than any subtle characteristics attributed to the people who built the frames.

Regards,

Corwin

[J J]

This is such an interesting discussion and I appreciate the thread. 

We have three Toyo-built Rivs in our household, a couple of Waterford-built Rivs, and one built in Taiwan (presumably by Maxway? is that the only Taiwanese builder Riv has used?). Rivendell has super high standards and expectations no matter the builder. The bikes are overbuilt in a way that I appreciate tremendously. Occasionally, but rarely, there are manufacturing or design missteps — a significant one was the kickstand plates on certain models that had a tendency to become shorn from the chain stays when they were used as intended, i.e., as a kickstand mounting point. 

To say that the Toyo frames are special is not to knock the very high quality of other Rivendell frames. If you closely compare Toyo frames to Taiwan frames, differences clearly emerge: the quality of workmanship, how clean and lovely the brazing and lug edges are, the embellishments, especially on the Wilbury and Glorius models, which have incredibly intricate lug designs that would require an exceptionally skilled and experienced builder, and a ton of time, to braze properly and cleanly. 

I can't genuinely say that I feel that Toyo frames ride better than other ones. Even if you could do the impossible and put aside geometry and design issues, there are just too many other factors and variables that affect how we assess and experience ride quality (tubing, wheels, tires, saddles, handlebars, everything that makes a bike a bike). It is necessarily subjective, and that's ok. I like how Rivendells ride, period. I have preferences on geometry, but what feels better for me says nothing about how it would feel to another person.

So to reiterate and be absolutely clear, acknowledging the specialness of Toyo frames does not in any way denigrate non-Toyo Rivendell models, which I would not hesitate to buy — so long as they are fully lugged!

Thanks for starting the thread.

Jim

[Ryan]

Hmm I thought that Quickbeams were built by Panasonic; then thought maybe I confused them with SimpleOnes; couldn't find anything on who built those, initially ...but I didn't do a deep dive. Chroniclers of the Rivendell timeline will know

So...I googled and landed on St. Sheldon. But...maybe Toyo did build them as well

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/org/quickbeam-index.html 

And off-topic...I stumbled on Riv's 2025 frame/bike schedule as of Nov 5, 2024

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/1403/7343/files/RBW_2025_Production_Schedule_1162024.png?v=1730926979 

from https://www.rivbike.com/ scroll down to how do I get one?

[Joe Bernard]

You are correct, all production Quickbeams were Panasonic. The original prototype Mark Abele showed me may have been Toyo-built.