questions about quickbeam/simple one gearing

[alan lavine]

Hi All,

The simple one for sale got me to thinking about doing something similar with a fixie frame I made at United Bicycle Institute a few years ago.

IIRC you can put 2 closely spaced chainrings up front.  Then in the rear with flip flop hub, you can use a double freewheel on one side and even a double fixed cog on the other.  Is this right?  How close do the chainrings and cogs need to be to avoid having to change the chain length?  Can you use a "crossover" gear, i.e. one chainring with either of the cogs in the rear (FW or fixed), or do they need to be in the same plane?  Will it work with a standard track dropout or was there something unique on the simple one/quickbeam?

Can someone give me examples of the gearing they use?  What double crank works or do I have to make a custom one?  My frame was originally built with a 120 rear but I respaced it to 126...will that work?  Are flip flop wheels available with quick release, and is it OK for fixed gear riding?  I'm wondering how often I would change the gears if I needed a wrench for the axle nut.

Lots of questions, sorry, but I'm thinking it would make an interesting project.

Thanks in advance,

Alan 

NYC

[Deacon Patrick]

Alan,

Awesome questions! SS riding is a stunning freedom that is difficult to explain, humbling to learn (let the bike teach you), and wondrous to experience.

The simplest thing to do in your project is to set up your bike as a SS with only one gear option. Ride it and learn for a year, and if you need more gears, explore your options then. Here's why I say that:

The simple (one) answer is the QB and S1 have unique and brilliant extended, sloped dropouts that 1) allow up to an 8(?) tooth difference in tooth count accommodating the rear wheel sliding forward and back without messing with the brake alignment. Thus, I do not believe a set-up like I have on mine (White Industries duo 19/16 ss cog, 32/40 chain rings) is possible on other frames. It is easy to get lost in the details of SS gearing.

Have you ridden SS? If you have, then you've already learned a lot about the feel of riding one. If not, try a "poser SS" with your current geared bike. Figure out a gear that you think is what you want in SS and ride it for a month without shifting out of that gear.

Based on my own experience with SS over the last few years riding in the Colorado mountains, I would not set up a SS bike with less spread than I have (which equals the spread of a 3-spreed IGH). Basically, I can cover 90% of my terrain with my 40/16 gear and the remaining bits I could easily walk. For shorter rides, I can cover 100% of the terrain with my high gear, for longer rides like my century yesterday, I stay more aerobic, so switch sooner to my lower gear.

Also, always remember every bike come with an LCG (lowest common gear), aka hike-a-bike. Thus even a single SS has two gears. Grin. 

With abandon,

Patrick

[Eric Norris]

I don’t want to throw cold water on this, but in my experience (QB owner since 2005) the sloped dropouts only work with very short brake shoes—think road bike caliper-type shoes. Longer brake pads create a problem when you start moving the wheel backward and forward by rubbing on the tire. 

The brake pads will be “aligned,” but might not be usable. The bigger the movement, the greater the possibility that your rear brake will start hitting the tire.

--Eric Norris
campyo...@me.com

@CampyOnlyguy (Twitter/Instagram)

[Deacon Patrick]

Interesting, Eric. My brake pads are the Koolstop mountain pads, which are curved and long and I haven't an issue.

With abandon,

Patrick

[Philip Williamson]

I've run my Quickbeam and another singelspeed with fixed Dingle cogs for many years, but they're both set up as single-gear fixed now. I will put my Quickbeam back into dingle mode soon - I switched cranks to an old Shimano 600, and it sits too close to the BB shell to allow an inner ring. 

The QB came with 40/32 rings and an 18t freewheel. The long track end allows for that 8 tooth spread. I don't recall having an issue with the brake shoes, but I wouldn't rule it out. I used the stock rings with a 15t fixed cog, and then with a 17/21 Surly dingle cog. Most recently I used a 39/44 road double with the 17/21. I simply replaced the 52 tooth ring from a normal road double. 

I like the two gears to be on the same side of the bike, because gear changes then are literally a 15 second affair. 

I really like quick releases for fixed gears. The lock the wheel better, and you never forget your tool. Dingle setups with quick releases are easy: Loosen the QR, slide the wheel forward to slacken the chain, lightly clamp the QR, and derail the chain onto the new gear. Roll the bike forward to get the chain around both the cog and the ring, then slide the wheel back to tighten the chain, clamp the QR for real, and ride away.

Crossover gears are probably fine with a nine speed chain, but I don't recall ever doing that. The chain length is more of an issue there. You might not have the dropout length to accommodate the change in axle position. e.g.: 44+17=61, and 39+21=60 so one tooth difference is about 1/4" of axle movement backwards. 44+21=65, so 4 teeth difference is 1" of movement forwards. So even if you have a 1 1/4" dropout length, your favorite gear might not put the axle at the right spot to use the whole thing.

Here's my old write-up about how another list member geared his Quickbeam: http://www.biketinker.com/2010/bike-resources/multi-speed-fixed-quickbeam/

Philip

www.biketinker.com 

[Minh]

not much more to add then what's been said, i also use a 40/32 + 17/19 (WI), but mainly run 40 up front so not a major change when i switch in the back.  though i rarely switch, too lazy, would just get off and push.   i can make a point about nutted vs quick release, i run mine rear wheel nutted and it's fine, but i've also been out on a ride and didn't check my rear wheel nuts and had it come loose under heavy pedaling---and then realize i didn't have a wrench to tighten it.   

so there's that, if you go the nutted route be prepared.  i would've switchted to QR but i run a phil rear and don't wanna do the conversion!

[Bill Lindsay]

Alan asked several questions about QB/SO gearing:

"IIRC you can put 2 closely spaced chainrings up front.  Then in the rear with flip flop hub, you can use a double freewheel on one side and even a double fixed cog on the other.  Is this right?"

This is one of the ways people might set up their bike

" How close do the chainrings and cogs need to be to avoid having to change the chain length?"

It depends.  The slots on the Quickbeam and the Simple one are long and are slanted such that you have a lot of gearing spread latitude and you hopefully won't have to adjust brakes for a gear change.  Since you are not using those Quickbeam dropouts, you might have a different amount of capacity, and almost certainly will need to adjust your brakes for every gear change.  Some people go strictly fixed in the rear and don't use a rear brake to enable gear changes with a dingle.  

"Can you use a "crossover" gear, i.e. one chainring with either of the cogs in the rear (FW or fixed), or do they need to be in the same plane?"

Yes you can.  Modern chains are super flexible, and laser straight chainline is not critical

"Will it work with a standard track dropout or was there something unique on the simple one/quickbeam?"

The Quickbeam dropout was long and slanted.  Standard track dropouts are flat.  A wheel position change requires a brake pad adjustment, almost always

"Can someone give me examples of the gearing they use?"

I use 35/38 tooth chainrings in front with a White Industries 16/19 freewheel in back.  I use two gears: 35x19 and 38x16.  The wheel position is the same for both gears, so I don't have to adjust brakes with a gear change

"What double crank works or do I have to make a custom one?"

If by 'make a custom one' you mean buy arms and pick your two chainrings, then yeah, you will probably make a custom one.  I used a 110BCD Campy square taper crankset when they were being dumped for practically free.  

"My frame was originally built with a 120 rear but I respaced it to 126...will that work?"

It depends.  I don't know of a 126mm flip flop hub.  

"Are flip flop wheels available with quick release, and is it OK for fixed gear riding?"

If you can find a 126mm flip flop hub, then I imagine you could at worst do an axle swap to make it QR if you need to.  Phil Wood does custom configurations, so you can get anything you are willing to pay for.  

"I'm wondering how often I would change the gears if I needed a wrench for the axle nut."

Using a wrench for gear changes is one of the major benefits on my bike.  I loosen only the drive side nut, move the chain to the other gear, and then tighten that one nut.  The non-drive-side nut holds the wheel in position while I'm doing it.  My hub is a Phil with 6mm allen axle nuts.  My tool kit is a nice long 6mm allen key and a plastic tire lever.  I use the tire lever to move the chain over, so I don't get dirty fingers.  My 35x19 is my uphill gear, and my 38x16 is my everything else gear.  

BL in EC

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 7:50:07 AM UTC-7, alan lavine wrote:

[Patrick Moore]

1. Welcome to the esoteric and exotic world of fixed gear bike gearing. 

2. Multiplicity in the rear is always better than multiplicity at the front. Hermeneutic: a. A single tooth's difference in the rear makes a much bigger gearing jump than a single tooth's difference in the front. b. It's much easier to swap the chain from a cog to an adjacent cog, while you are squatting behind the bike manipulating the QR or your box wrench with one hand, than to do this from one chainring to another.

3. You must strike a careful balance between doing what you can with what you have, and selecting the gearing that best suits you and your riding needs. Hermeneutic: a. Decide where the bike will most be ridden: Kansas or Boulder? Smooth pavement or 2" deep sand? Unladen or pulling a child trailer?  b. Choose your gearing strategy. Hermeneutic: i. Do you stop and swap cogs at the slightest rise? Or do you hate stopping and prefer to grind up hills and against winds? ii. Do you prefer to twiddle on flats in order to have an easier gear for climbs? Do you have a freewheel for downhills? c. Taking this into account, choose a comfortable cruising gear, one suited for flat land speed and still winds. d. Choose a lower gear that will nicely serve when (i) you are feeling weak and the wind is strong; (ii) you have an exceptionally long hill that can't simply be walked (my cutoff for taking the trouble to swap cogs is about 1/2 mile. I can generally go at least 1/4 mile up even a 10%+ grade, and I don't mind walking 1/4 mile).

Commentary: my own experience started with the worry about hills: I need a low gear to climb. So for road riding I started with a 63" gear. Too damned low; nothing more futile and exasperating than flailing away hopelessly on a flat with a tailwind in too low a gear. Easier to suffer a bit on the climbs. I moved to ~67-68", then to 70" for a bike that sees loads and that has fender flaps and bags to catch the wind; 75-76" for a gofast. These gears have served me well in rolling, windy terrain for 17+ years. I go down 2 teeth on the flip cogs -- 63" and 67" respectively -- for longer climbs and strong headwinds, or for lazy days. Note that as I approach Social Security Benefits age, I may gear down a tooth or so.

I was younger -- ~ 48-50 -- but I found that a 67" gear was just right for pulling my then 2-4 year old daughter in a child trailer against headwinds -- given that headwinds inevitably turned into tailwinds.

For off road, shorter (sub 20 mile) rides on rolling terrain with some very steep but short hills, and sandy soil, I tried a 60" fixed drivetrain, which was alright for flats, nice for hills (I still had to walk the steeper or more sandy ones), but I hated, just hated the low gear for flats and tailwinds, esp since this bike had 175s instead of 170s. There are few experiences more discouraging than flailing despairingly on the flat with a tailwind in a 60" gear with 175 mm cranks. I found that 170s with a 63" or 65" gear was much better; you walk a wee bit more but the rest is far more comfortable. If I were to ride SS or fixed again in such conditions, I'd have a 65" gear with perhaps a 55" low for long climbs in sandy conditions.

A real off road bike is the one instance where I'd add a second chainring, and pair it with a large cog in back, to get a bigger gap between flatland cruising and technical stuff. Otherwise, I'd make do with a Dingle cog (IIRC, they come in 17/19 and 17/20) or a flipside cog. Again, it makes no sense to have 2 chainrings but only 1 cog.

Note that the S3X hub is a possibility -- direct high with 75% 2nd and 62.5% 1st; though it has its own liabilities, notably the annoying lash.

4. A few mm either way won't mar the chainline enough to cause problems, especially if you are using a modern bushingless chain. Cogs and rings are easily available in 3/32 width.

5. The right QRs are fine for fixed/ss wheels; just choose an old fashioned, internal cam, all steel one. External cam QRs won't hold and can be used only with vertical dropouts. If a QR can be used successfully with a derailleur drivetrain in a horizontal dropout, it will work with a fixed gear or ss drivetrain.

6. Relates to #3 (b): your gearing strategy. Me, I think it's foolish to ride a ss or fixie and then try to switch gears for every rise in the road. You have to decide for yourself where the breaking point is, but my own approach is to select a gear that is best for an entire ride, or a section of a ride, and just leave it there until I'm done. For example, I've got a couple of routes there the outbound involves climbing, the return downhills. I put the bike in the bigger cog outbound, and when I turn around, I switch. 

Overall, and in all seriousness, fixed riding is really, really fun and, over the last 21 years, I've come to prefer it to riding multispeed; my only multispeed bike out of 4 is my dirt road bike, and even with that I often think of ss-ifying it. But if you're going to ride fixed, do it and get used to it; it involves a change not only of pedaling habits but of mindset -- and it's this last, really, that I find so attractive: you acquire the mental habit of doing more with less, which is pretty much the general definition of elegance. In particular, you learn to pace yourself for hills and winds; you learn to anticipate; you develop new techniques (the traditional idea of habitus, a more or less permanently acquired change in your soul and body or, if you don't understand those terms, your psychology and your physiology); and you find for example that you are quite sanguine about standing most of the way up a 5 mile climb. People on this list far more talented than I have done P-B-P on fixies and climbed the Rockies in amazingly huge fixed gears. It's a different style of riding, and you have to accept it for what it is and adapt to it -- and that gives the pleasure that derives from it.

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[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for the comments about rear brake shoes and chain length. Rear brake shoes: sloping dropouts work fine if the teeth difference isn't much more than 2 or 3 teeth; with an ENO hub, even 2 teeth is problematical. I solved the problem with the rim and pads not meeting by using only a front brake; no need for a rear if you are riding fixed exclusively, though don't do this with a freewheel. But having no rear rim brake frees you from much fretting.

Chain length: yes, you particular choice of cogs and rings may not let you use the entire theoretical length of the dropouts. I found this with 2 of my bikes. In the first case, with my ring and cog of choice for cruising, the chain was either just a wee bit too long or left the QR clamped overhanging the end of the dropout 00 these were Rivendell "short horizontals" circa 1999. I solved it by diligent use of a large rat tail file (a mm of horizontal distance along the dropouts gives a very surprising amount of additional chain takeup). In the second, I had exceptionally long dropouts installed aftermarket.

On Tue, Jun 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, alan lavine <ciga...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Matt B.]

On Tuesday, June 6, 2017 at 12:29:16 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:

Interesting, Eric. My brake pads are the Koolstop mountain pads, which are curved and long and I haven't an issue.

 

With abandon,

Patrick

Same here, no problems switching from the 40t to the 32t ring on my QB with koolstop pads.


 

[alan lavine]

Much thanks for all the thoughtful replies and info.  The bike in question is currently set up fixed with 65" gearing, and this is fine for around town and short rides out of town.  I was thinking about longer rides with longer hills....no real mountains and no off road.  Given the limitations of a standard track dropout and the brake pad issue I would need to create gearing with the same # of teeth in both positions so no axle position change.  I would be looking for around 70" on the flats and around 60" for climbs.  I didn't run the numbers but I'm sure this is possible.

I keep getting back to the quick release issue.  Currently I have an Origin 8 flip flop hub spaced to 126, with sealed bearings.  Is it even possible to change out axles on this?  Aside from Phil Wood, any options for a custom wheel that won't break the bank?

Again, thanks for all the collective wisdom.

Alan

[Deacon Patrick]

Hey Alan,

My suggestion is ride the 65" (or 70") on the longer rides. You will be surprised how quickly you learn climbing either in the saddle or standing but in a slow, steady way for longer hills. I don't know what long hills are where you live, here they are 10-20 miles. Grin. Should you climb a hill you need your lowest gear, LCG it. That's what it's there for, and it's variable, as you can lope along with your bike if you like, or walk very slow. Try what you have for long rides and see how you do. Give it the summer. You then know if you need that 10" difference or not (Because it costs quite a bit to get there from where you are and I bet 95-98% of your riding you've already got covered with what you have).

With abandon,

Patrick

[alan lavine]

Deacon, I think that's what I'm going to do for now...no inclination for a major project right now.

And Patrick, I totally agree with your "philosophy" of fixed gear riding. It attracts me for the same reasons.

Alan

[Patrick Moore]

Keep us up to date on your experiences and any changes. 

Note that if you should use a 17/19 Dingle, you could use a 40 or 42 t ring with the 17 to get about a 66" gear (27" wheel, 42 t ring; 28" wheel, 40 t ring) as well as a 59" or 60" gear with the 19; and a 6 or 7 gi difference sure feels like a lot when you've been climbing in the bigger one. 

With a 17/20, you'd have a 56 or 57 inch low, same conditions.

I would be surprised if your brake shoes, properly set up, couldn't take a 2 or even 3 t difference, if you are willing to accept a compromise position for the rear pads. After all, the rear track ends are sloped, not horizontal. Me, I ditched my rear brakes (2 bikes with Dingle) because the Dingle is less cooperative with rear pads, but on my '03 Curt, with immensely long horizontal dropouts (not sloping track ends), I don't even notice any brake pad discrepancy when I switch to the 19 from the 17, and I am pretty sure the pads would accommodate a 20, if not a 21. I suspect that your track ends are sloped similarly to my horizontals.

I think your rear pads would object to a 5 or 8 tooth difference.

Almost but not quite aside: with that fixed gear, I find the rear brake usable but hardly necessary and not even very useful (I installed the rear brake because on very rare occasions I run a freewheel on this bike); for all except the lightest braking in the rear, I find myself skipping the rear wheel as I resist the cranks, a reaction that, at least for me, is unthinking. Certainly, IME, for sudden braking -- hard but not yet panic -- the rear wheel is so unweighted that it stops without any use of the rear brake. Read Sheldon Brown on fixed gears and rear brakes.

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[Patrick Moore]

Dammit. I ditched the rear brakes on 2 bikes with an ENO hub, which is less cooperative with rear brakes than properly sloped axle slots. Your sloped track ends (alright, Sheldon, I said it right) ought to accommodate rear pads and axle movement a lot better than the ENO.

On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 at 5:38 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com> wrote:

[...] Me, I ditched my rear brakes (2 bikes with Dingle) because the Dingle is less cooperative with rear pads,[...]